I'll put it in layman terms for you;
If you define the criteria which you are using to determine better music or worse music, which you have, we can then reach a factual conclusion. None of your criteria prove your point.
Also why do you keep insisting I'm baiting you? Because you don't like my posts? At least I came back to debate the topic, what did you come back for? Oh, I know. To suggest that we don't get it because we disagree.
Deal with it or leave, you're wrong. You're the only one who wanted this debate, this thread, everything. EVERY time you have been on an overwhelming losing side, because you're wrong. So if you don't like the answers, stop asking the questions.
-AC
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I was just wondering, 'cause you're mentioning that you're acknowledging good and bad music...and there is actually a lot about "criteria" in my argument...(that's pretty much what supports it). I think you'd find it interesting.
you dont base your appreciation of music on fixed criteria though do you?...you base it on what you like and if you're taste is varied then clearly using a set of criteria wouldn't allow that variation
we all agree that if the techincal ability were the criteria certain music is factually better than other pieces of music.
we all agree that one piece of music can be produced to a higher standard than another and thus is "better"
but in terms of whether it's good music is the discern of the person listening to it.
take your point about someone deliberately setting out to make crap music...what if someone liked it?...it wouldn't be crap to them
to use your god analogy
you can prove religion exists...you can prove one church is better than another mosque from an architectural view...but you cant prove god(s) exist(s) or doesn't and whether you believe this to be the case or not is arbitrary.
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I'll just ignore that bait.VVD thanks for reading. I didn't quite understand the difference between that quote you gave me and my quote...but oh well...whatever.
Well, yes. I posted similar things throughout, but people went on regardless.
You tended to deviate from that idea in elucidating your argument, hence the never-ending conflicts.
A) I do, others do. Bottom line: He's saying there's an objective standard of music, fact is, there's not any objectivity outside of technicality.
B) Even IF I didn't, it doesn't change a thing does it? He's still wrong, isn't he? There's no objective standard of good and bad regarding what we hear and ONLY what we hear. You "understand" him according to himself, and you still disagree, because he's wrong.
Here:
Originally posted by Nellinator
30 Second of Mars sucks in my opinion because I don't like how they sound. That is the subjective part.
He's saying you're wrong. That a band's music can be truthfully and objectively bad no matter what anyone says or who likes them. He's saying if you like a band that make "crap" music and think they make good music, and don't say "But it's crap music.", you'd be wrong, regarding music that he thinks is "crap".
-AC
Originally posted by Nellinator
He never said that you can't subjectively like an objectively bad band.
I didn't say he did, did I? Keep up.
You think 30 Seconds to Mars are nothing special objectively; And with regards to talent, a measurable factor, you're correct.
We're not talking about "bad" or "good" in terms of technical ability, we're discussing music. JUST music, not ability, not technical ability, nothing technical. Just the music, that's all. Not notation, not anything to do with anything technical.
If someone says "I don't think this is good music." about a song you like by say, Metallica, they are not right or wrong, it's just their opinion. There is no factually, truthfully, or objectively (Same thing, but EP likes to pick his words.) bad OR good MUSIC. If someone said "I don't think James Hetfield is a good guitarist." they'd be wrong, because it can be proven, objectively, that he is. Music is subjective, in terms of what's good and bad.
Nobody is wrong or right for thinking something is just good or bad music. Their opinion might not be all that, but they're not wrong or right. When someone says "This is bad music.", they aren't necessarily saying it's badly constructed (Technical anything.) or whatever, they are simply saying they don't like it.
You are too hung up on "I can appreciate music technically even if I don't like it.", so should anyone be able to. That's not the issue.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriIf someone says "I don't think this is good music." about a song you like by say, Metallica, they are not right or wrong, it's just their opinion. There is no factually, truthfully, or objectively (Same thing, but EP likes to pick his words.) bad OR good MUSIC. If someone said "I don't think James Hetfield is a good guitarist." they'd be wrong, because it can be proven, objectively, that he is. Music is subjective, in terms of what's good and bad.
Technically they are similar areas; the difference is that 'good guitarist' seems more rooted in criteria than music. Both could be proven, both disproven.
The word 'good', as always.
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriI'm confused why your trying to convince me of this, I haven't disagreed with you.
I didn't say he did, did I? Keep up.You think 30 Seconds to Mars are nothing special objectively; And with regards to talent, a measurable factor, you're correct.
We're not talking about "bad" or "good" in terms of technical ability, we're discussing music. JUST music, not ability, not technical ability, nothing technical. Just the music, that's all. Not notation, not anything to do with anything technical.
If someone says "I don't think this is good music." about a song you like by say, Metallica, they are not right or wrong, it's just their opinion. There is no factually, truthfully, or objectively (Same thing, but EP likes to pick his words.) bad OR good MUSIC. If someone said "I don't think James Hetfield is a good guitarist." they'd be wrong, because it can be proven, objectively, that he is. Music is subjective, in terms of what's good and bad.
Nobody is wrong or right for thinking something is just good or bad music. Their opinion might not be all that, but they're not wrong or right. When someone says "This is bad music.", they aren't necessarily saying it's badly constructed (Technical anything.) or whatever, they are simply saying they don't like it.
You are too hung up on "I can appreciate music technically even if I don't like it.", so should anyone be able to. That's not the issue.
-AC
-Conversation with song titles?...(boy we did a great job with that one)
-What song are you listening to NOW??...("now" as in every 5 minutes??)
-Hi 🙂 ...I like music???
Are these the threads that have taken over?
...
It was only a matter of time....and it's time.
Alpha Centauri, you don't get it...and neither do others.
WHAT did you just say in that last quoted post?
You (and others) STILL don't get the fundamental flaw that you all keep making...how can you DARE say...
If someone says "I don't think this is good music." about a song you like by say, Metallica, they are not right or wrong, it's just their opinion.
...you CAN'T say that! According to you there IS NO SUCH THING as good or bad music...let alone an opinion on it! So the ONLY thing you could POSSIBLY tell the person is that they've just made an opinion about NOTHING.
There is NO "opinion" regarding good or bad music according to you...because good or bad music doesn't exist...right? So DON'T say "it's just their opinion"...as if that might mean something.
That'd be like me saying, "That tree is smart...that's just my opinion".
What? But there isn't such a thing as smart or dumb trees...so I've just made an opinion about nothing.
THAT'S basically the kind of reaction you should ALL have regarding music...
...but you don't.
And the reason you don't is because...
a) You STILL don't even understand your own argument (even though I keep posting the ONLY thing it could possibly mean)
b) You agree with me, but just don't know it.
Don't ANY of you EVER say "this band sucks" or "this band rules" because it means NOTHING...(according to you)...NOTHING. Not that you might be wrong about the band or that it's "just your opinion"...it means NOTHING. And the reason MANY of you aren't prepared to accept this is because you haven't really thought this stuff through yet...even your own argument.
So you think I'm wrong?...let's have 'er.
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Alpha Centauri, you don't get it...and neither do others.
Again.
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
You (and others) STILL don't get the fundamental flaw that you all keep making...how can you DARE say...
And again.
You are the one who doesn't get it. You believe that if you keep posting, you're still in it, and it's so, so sad. Really it is. It's tragic, honestly.
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
...you CAN'T say that! According to you there IS NO SUCH THING as good or bad music...let alone an opinion on it! So the ONLY thing you could POSSIBLY tell the person is that they've just made an opinion about NOTHING.There is NO "opinion" regarding good or bad music according to you...because good or bad music doesn't exist...right? So DON'T say "it's just their opinion"...as if that might mean something.
That'd be like me saying, "That tree is smart...that's just my opinion".
There's no OBJECTIVELY good or bad music. If you still don't get that after all this time, then you truly are beyond saving. Everyone has an opinion about what music is good or bad, and that's all there is. I can't believe it still needs to be told to you.
And no, it wouldn't be like that because trees aren't conscious, unless you're now planning to argue that they are.
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
What? But there isn't such a thing as smart or dumb trees...so I've just made an opinion about nothing.
No, what you did there was make a factually incorrect statement, just to prove a point, and failed. Like you are believing and pushing an incorrect belief in this thread, just to keep going.
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
THAT'S basically the kind of reaction you should ALL have regarding music...
Don't tell people what reaction they should have. Then again, you did once say you were such a great philosopher that you deserved to be held in company of Plato.
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
...but you don't.
There are a lot of things you don't do; Admit you're wrong, for one, which is why this thread died, because nobody cared enough to keep saying things they didn't need to.
You dodge every single reply I throw at you, only to pop up weeks later and try again, ignoring everything that came before.
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
And the reason you don't is because...a) You STILL don't even understand your own argument (even though I keep posting the ONLY thing it could possibly mean)
b) You agree with me, but just don't know it.
Now I'm starting to believe this thread has honestly driven you insane.
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Don't ANY of you EVER say "this band sucks" or "this band rules" because it means NOTHING...(according to you)...NOTHING. Not that you might be wrong about the band or that it's "just your opinion"...it means NOTHING. And the reason MANY of you aren't prepared to accept this is because you haven't really thought this stuff through yet...even your own argument.
It does, it means we, as individuals, believe a band's music sucks or rules. We're not saying it as fact, because it isn't.
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
So you think I'm wrong?...let's have 'er.
No, we know you are. That's what you don't understand, for the millionth time. You still believe this is a debate, it's not. It's you being wrong and continually posting because you don't want to let it die, you feel "If I keep posting it means the debate is still going.", and it doesn't.
Here's the deal, EP;
If your desperate, pathetic crusade has genuinely reached the point of convincing yourself that we know we're wrong and just don't know it, then you truly need not only mental help, but to leave this thread, because it'll never go anywhere. You've reached such a pit that you now convince yourself you're right, that we know you're right and that we agree with you.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Everyone has an opinion about what music is good or bad, and that's all there is. I can't believe it still needs to be told to you....
Originally posted by Alpha CentauriHaha!
...we, as individuals, believe a band's music sucks or rules. We're not saying it as fact, because it isn't.
THIS is the person you people have been agreeing with all this time.
He doesn't get it. He DOES NOT get it, and he WILL NOT get it...
I just spent a whole post solely explaining how it's not possible for him to say what just said...and he still said it.
....
Anyway, sitting back and watching some of the stuff discussed was a bit painful.
At this point, I'm just curious to see how many people can understand this simple point I'm making...(I know one person can't...and I think a lot of you have caught on that he can't, although he'll try and get the last word in EVERY time and try to make it out that everyone is in agreement with him...just watch).
So, I'll post it again, and let's see if in fact you ALL understand what I'm saying...
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
You (and others) STILL don't get the fundamental flaw that you all keep making...how can you DARE say...-If someone says "I don't think this is good music." about a song you like by say, Metallica, they are not right or wrong, it's just their opinion.
...you CAN'T say that! According to you there IS NO SUCH THING as good or bad music...let alone an opinion on it! So the ONLY thing you could POSSIBLY tell the person is that they've just made an opinion about NOTHING.
There is NO "opinion" regarding good or bad music according to you...because good or bad music doesn't exist...right? So DON'T say "it's just their opinion"...as if that might mean something.
That'd be like me saying, "That tree is smart...that's just my opinion".
What? But there isn't such a thing as smart or dumb trees...so I've just made an opinion about nothing.
THAT'S basically the kind of reaction you should ALL have regarding music...
...but you don't.
And the reason you don't is because...
a) You STILL don't even understand your own argument (even though I keep posting the ONLY thing it could possibly mean)
b) You agree with me, but just don't know it.
Don't ANY of you EVER say "this band sucks" or "this band rules" because it means NOTHING...(according to you)...NOTHING. Not that you might be wrong about the band or that it's "just your opinion"...it means NOTHING. And the reason MANY of you aren't prepared to accept this is because you haven't really thought this stuff through yet...even your own argument.
Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Haha!THIS is the person you people have been agreeing with all this time.
He doesn't get it. He DOES NOT get it, and he WILL NOT get it...
I just spent a whole post solely explaining how it's not possible for him to say what just said...and he still said it.
....
Anyway...I sat back and watched some of you people discuss this stuff for a while and a lot of it was absolutley painful.
At this point, I'm just curious to see how many people can understand this simple point I'm making...(I know one person can't...and I think a lot of you have caught on that he can't, although he'll try and get the last word in EVERY time and try to make it out that everyone is in agreement with him...just watch).
What do you not understand? You spent a day or four creating an argument for something you are wrong about, that's what made it hilarious and also sad. It was an exercise in futility.
You keep asking us to understand, but by understand you mean agree, because we all understand, you're just wrong.
I'm not trying to get the last word, I was more than prepared to let this thread pass, but YOU are the one who bumped it replying to me, so I replied to you. You wouldn't reply to anything else I said, so why not?
You are the one who keeps pasting your posts again and again in an attempt to keep the thread alive, without contributing anything beyond "They don't get it, HE doesn't get it.", then trying to slyly get people on your side by saying "I think you do, AC is just dumb.".
No, you're an idiot. I've accepted your disposition, but you won't accept that this is how it is. Accept you're wrong or not, you do need to accept that it's not going to happen for you, no matter how much you whine, ass kiss, or make polls.
It's just not going to happen. I can rest in the fact that I am right, hence why I had the ability to let the thread go, you can never, because you're wrong and you know it, and you believe if you keep bumping it, it's still going.
So you can have the last post, we'll see how much interest your bump creates.
-AC