Greatest Rpg's Of All Time

I can't pin down a concise definition of "role-playing game," but there are some things that all mainstream RPGs have.

A nice long story, usually including a group of nobodies saving the universe.

Several people in a party as opposed to one person going solo.

Those people having personal stats that increase over the course of the game.

Several hundred battles, usually done via a menu system. (Tales games FTW here, action is fun)

Moving from town to town across an entire world, asking complete strangers if they've seen a black-caped man before taking off with all the stuff you took out of their cupboards and barrels right in front of them.

Really, the last is one of the most important.

A little more seriously, RPGs tend to be plot-driven with character development as the main engine for forwarding that plot. The story is always grandiose, and you'll be saving the entire world by the end of the game.

"fully interactive?.. as in how? Its still "choice A" or "choice B" through the entire game... choosing choice A alot makes everyone like you.. and the exact opposite with B.. thats too simple of a mechanic for me to find as a 'defining' role-playing element"

For a start, it is at least making an effort, in whixh respect Diablo does not- you cannot affect the storyline one tiny bit in Diablo. it is pure arcade.

Secondly, you are wrong, because the interrelation of plot and character elements creates a whole lot more than just the two outcomes you mention. That's mis-interpretation.

Thirdly, this comment of yours:

"and getting a nice new gun is much more immediate than spending 24 levels to get your highest tier skills,"

Is wrong for two reasons- first of all, guns come in tiers as well. Secondly, games like R-Type have a similar progression to get larger weapons, but they are still not RPs. The acquisition of skills and powers as you go along is NOT evidence of an RP. it is evidence of nothing more than progression, which is not necessarily an RP trait.

As for this sentence:

"having RPG elements makes the game partially an RPG, what can I say?"

Well, you can say you are wrong, because that would be talking sense. As I mentioned, having a machine gun does not make you an FPS.

What does picking up stuff have to do with RPs? I can pick up stuff in Doom. I can buy stuff in Counterstrike. All of these things are totally away from the point.

Seriously, folks, why don;t any of you consider what the words role-playing game actually MEAN, hmm? You cannot just fit any definition you like. How much more simply can I put it? These... words... have... a... MEANING.

This thread has gone far off topic. You list which RPG's you think are the greatest and that is all.

We're not discussing what makes an RPG, it's been discussed before as well as took other threads off topic before.

If you want to discuss it, then make a thread specifically devoted to that if it hasn't been done already.

That's that. Not another word.

anata wa wakarimasu ka.....

Quit acting like a mod, Innerrise. It's relevant enough.

InnerRise, last I checked you are not a mod. So shut it.

And I would say that discussing what makes something an RP in a thread about RPs...is not at all "far off topic".

InnerRise, how is it possible to discuss the "greatest RPGs of all time" if we don't have a clear definition of what an RPG is?

The discussion is to do exactly that: Defining what counts as an RPG. It is thus relevant to the thread's purpose, and on-topic.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
"fully interactive?.. as in how? Its still "choice A" or "choice B" through the entire game... choosing choice A alot makes everyone like you.. and the exact opposite with B.. thats too simple of a mechanic for me to find as a 'defining' role-playing element"

For a start, it is at least making an effort, in whixh respect Diablo does not- you cannot affect the storyline one tiny bit in Diablo. it is pure arcade.

its not pure arcade.. there is way too much content to experience what the game has to offer in one sitting.. only arcade games show their stuff in one play span (such as q3, doom)... and praytell, how vastly can you affect the storyline in KoToR?... I'm pretty sure theres only 1 outcome (at least in the first kotor, I havent played the 2nd one)

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Secondly, you are wrong, because the interrelation of plot and character elements creates a whole lot more than just the two outcomes you mention. That's mis-interpretation.

what is this 'more' you speak of? can I at least be afforded some details?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Thirdly, this comment of yours:

"and getting a nice new gun is much more immediate than spending 24 levels to get your highest tier skills,"

Is wrong for two reasons- first of all, guns come in tiers as well. Secondly, games like R-Type have a similar progression to get larger weapons, but they are still not RPs. The acquisition of skills and powers as you go along is NOT evidence of an RP. it is evidence of nothing more than progression, which is not necessarily an RP trait.

guns come in tiers.. but you can always beat the games you mentioned with the tier 1 weapon (be it a pistol, a knife, whatever).. its not possible to do that in any role playing game because the enemies will most likely have a high dodge rating, or damage mitigation to absorb such minuscule pokes

Originally posted by Ushgarak
As for this sentence:

"having RPG elements makes the game partially an RPG, what can I say?"
Well, you can say you are wrong, because that would be talking sense. As I mentioned, having a machine gun does not make you an FPS.
What does picking up stuff have to do with RPs? I can pick up stuff in Doom. I can buy stuff in Counterstrike. All of these things are totally away from the point.

yes purchasing equipment is an RPG element.. they borrowed it from an RPG... you buy weapons in real life right?, you also buy weapons in devil may cry, final fantasy, diablo, etc..

it balances the gameplay also.. so its an example where borrowing elements helps more than it hurts

they don't acknowledge the rpg element simply because the main gameplay does not involve rpg elements.. (i.e. you cant dodge bullets, or raise your accuracy through stats).. though there are some counterstrike mods that do this. So yes.. counterstrike has a single RPG element.. even moreso now that in CS : Source, the price of the guns fluctuates, and things like "best bargain in this category" exist.. so you almost have an MMO-like economy going on.. thats yet another RPG element (economy)

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Seriously, folks, why don;t any of you consider what the words role-playing game actually MEAN, hmm? You cannot just fit any definition you like. How much more simply can I put it? These... words... have... a... MEANING.

of course I have.. check these out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_playing_game

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_role-playing_games_by_name

Originally posted by Lana
InnerRise, last I checked you are not a mod. So shut it.

And I would say that discussing what makes something an RP in a thread about RPs...is not at all "far off topic".

anata wa wakarimasu ka.....

Originally posted by InnerRise
Shut it? I think not if I feel what I'm saying is correct..mod or not. "Far Off" or not, it's still off topic.

anata wa wakarimasu ka.....

You didn't even make the thread, you moaning sap.

Sats... arguing when you don't know what you're talking about (your KOTOR argument) or when you're missing the point (...everything else) makes you simply look foolish.

And using Wiki for a source in serious discussion is about as reliable as info from your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.

Originally posted by InnerRise
Shut it? I think not if I feel what I'm saying is correct..mod or not. "Far Off" or not, it's still off topic.

anata wa wakarimasu ka.....

No, it isn't off-topic. It's discussing RPs in a thread about RPs. How is that off-topic?

It isn't.

The only thing off-topic in this thread so far was you butting in with your unwanted and incorrect opinion on what is off-topic in this thread.

Originally posted by Lana
No, it isn't off-topic. It's discussing RPs in a thread about RPs. How is that off-topic?

It isn't.

The only thing off-topic in this thread so far was you butting in with your unwanted and incorrect opinion on what is off-topic in this thread.

Read the Title very carefully Lana as difficult as it may be: "GREATEST RPG'S OF ALL TIME" not "WHAT MAKES A RPG."

See the difference? You probably don't and there's not much more I can do for you.

And of course my "INCORRECT OPINION" was unwanted, b/c you people are all for this off topic discussion.

I'm done now. I've done nothing but help you take this thread off topic even further.

Anata wa wakarimasu ka.....

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Sats... arguing when you don't know what you're talking about (your KOTOR argument) or when you're missing the point (...everything else) makes you simply look foolish.

And using Wiki for a source in serious discussion is about as reliable as info from your father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.

my point is that story arc alone doesnt make an RPG an RPG... KoToR is good, but it can be broken down just like anything else

ah more details eh? (missing the point). be specific about what you're saying.. its easy to come in and tell someone they're wrong..

wiki is unbiased information, at least (at its very core) its informative.. IMO, you dont get any better than that

I'm saying what I'm saying because I'm looking to get to the core of what makes an RPG... I dont get why you and Ush take this in such a hostile way

this is a discussion.. not a 'whos wrong' or an 'argument'... I'd like to be clear about that

Originally posted by InnerRise
It's off topic simply b/c that's not what the thread was made for.

Read the Title very carefully Lana as difficult as it may be: "GREATEST RPG'S OF ALL TIME" not "WHAT MAKES A RPG."

See the difference? You probably don't and there's not much more I can do for you.

And of course my "INCORRECT OPINION" was unwanted, b/c you people are all for this off topic discussion.

I'm done now. I've done nothing but help you take this thread off topic even further.

Anata wa wakarimasu ka.....

Originally posted by General Kaliero
InnerRise, how is it possible to discuss the "greatest RPGs of all time" if we don't have a clear definition of what an RPG is?

The discussion is to do exactly that: Defining what counts as an RPG. It is thus relevant to the thread's purpose, and on-topic.

Now please, quit the unneeded and pointless whining.

I think the whole "Video Game RPG" argument boils down to simply "Game Mechanics".

There are cultural difference with Eastern RPG (FF) and Western RPG (Oblivion) and what makes a great RPG isn't important as how much fun you had playing the game.

Honestly people, we're not authorities here...some people like apple pie..others like cherry pie...and so on.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
its not pure arcade.. there is way too much content to experience what the game has to offer in one sitting.. only arcade games show their stuff in one play span (such as q3, doom)... and praytell, how vastly can you affect the storyline in KoToR?... I'm pretty sure theres only 1 outcome (at least in the first kotor, I havent played the 2nd one)

what is this 'more' you speak of? can I at least be afforded some details?

so if you started out the same person that you ended the game with.. that would be an RPG?.. lol... 🙄

guns come in tiers.. but you can always beat the games you mentioned with the tier 1 weapon (be it a pistol, a knife, whatever).. its not possible to do that in any role playing game because the enemies will most likely have a high dodge rating, or damage mitigation to absorb such minuscule pokes

yes purchasing equipment is an RPG element.. they borrowed it from an RPG... you buy weapons in real life right?, you also buy weapons in devil may cry, final fantasy, diablo, etc..

it balances the gameplay also.. so its an example where borrowing elements helps more than it hurts

they don't acknowledge the rpg element simply because the main gameplay does not involve rpg elements.. (i.e. you cant dodge bullets, or raise your accuracy through stats).. though there are some counterstrike mods that do this. So yes.. counterstrike has a single RPG element.. even moreso now that in CS : Source, the price of the guns fluctuates, and things like "best bargain in this category" exist.. so you almost have an MMO-like economy going on.. thats yet another RPG element (economy)

of course I have.. check these out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role_playing_game

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_role-playing_games_by_name

Holy geez, there is a lot of nonsense there.

First of all, there is NOT only one ending to KOTOR. Check your facts next time.

Secondly, the 'more' is that your decisions affect what happen to a. yourself b. your relations with other characters and c. the plot of the game. These mix together to create hundreds of different combinations; an approach Baldur's Gate II used first.

Thirdly, this sentence of yours:

"so if you started out the same person that you ended the game with.. that would be an RPG?.. lol... "

Is just nonsense.

Fourthly, you can easily beat Diablo without the top tier powers. In fact, several of them are much worse than the ones below. The same goes for Elder Scrolls games. This entire point of yours is hogwash. There is no fundamental difference between becoming more powerful by skill or by weapon- they are both simply game-based add-ons.

Fifthly, buying equipment is NOT an RP element, it is an element that happens to be in a lot of RPs. That is entirely different,. Once again, you are confusing correlation with causation, a basic logical error. You can buy equipment in dozens of games- several of which actually pre-date the RP genree on computer- that have nothing to do with being RPs.

Sixthly, balancing gameplay has nothing to do with anything. Seventhly, a free market has nothing to do with being an RP either. How can you possibly make that link? This is such a mental block you have here.

And finally... a. wikipedia is not an offical source of uncounterable knowledge, it is simply wirtten by people often just as clueless as you. Secondly, even if it was, that's an encyclopedia, not a dictionary.

None of these elements you describe have anything do do with what the term role-playing means. The term is all about having an interactive role with a truly interactive environment- an alternate reality which attempts (with varying degrees of succes) to have you being able to play that role is if you were actually there.Games like KOTOR or Elder Scrolls try to do that. Games like Diablo do NOT. They are just about killing things and nothing else. Playing a role has nothing to do with buying things, finding things, or even, necessarily, with becoming more powerful

Like I say, if Diablo had guns rather than swords, people wouldn't call it an RP. The mental deficiency involved here is amazing- the way that swords and fantasy suddenly make it an RP. Very very odd indeed.

If Assassin's Creed was to have a lot of RPG elements, it could well be fantastic. But I'm not actually sure how much of an RPG it's going to be.

Originally posted by SaTsuJiN
wiki is unbiased information, at least (at its very core) its informative.. IMO, you dont get any better than that

Wiki is written by the people, which means that anyone can write whatever the hell they want. And even if they were attempting to write in earnest, the articles are still subject to human error.

I'm saying what I'm saying because I'm looking to get to the core of what makes an RPG... I dont get why you and Ush take this in such a hostile way

Hostile? I enjoy such discussion. This is fun for me. Am I hostile simply because I oppose your view?

[b]this is a duscussion.. not a 'whos wrong' or an 'argument'... I'd like to be clear about that [/B]

Well, a discussion is essentially a gentlemanly argument... not as loud, and more polite.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
I think the whole "Video Game RPG" argument boils down to simply "Game Mechanics".

There are cultural difference with Eastern RPG (FF) and Western RPG (Oblivion) and what makes a great RPG isn't important as how much fun you had playing the game.

Honestly people, we're not authorities here...some people like apple pie..others like cherry pie...and so on.

Yeah, but if someone called a cherry pie an apple pie, they're wrong no matter which way you slice it...

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Yeah, but if someone called a cherry pie an apple pie, they're wrong no matter which way you slice it...

But the point is...that both taste delicious and is something everyone enjoys. Why bother to argue how it was made? (unless you want the recipe)