MJ November 2007

Originally posted by ESB -1138
...it's amazes me that someone who doesn't even like Jackson would spend so much time in a Michael Jackson thread trying to explain why people shouldn't like MJ...

..Everything you have stated vintageSW77 is your opinion not fact. Fact is MJ is one of the (if not) best selling artists of all time.

And of course everything he stated is opinion...there are no facts about this stuff. But I had a hard time disagreeing with a single point in any one of his last 4 posts because they're all pretty much right on...(although I wouldn't say it the way he did).

Just becasue you and others might not be getting it, or are letting your feelings about MJ's music get in the way, doesn't mean his opinion is less valid.

MJ is finished, people who gawk over him are unfortunately cluelesss, and that's the bottom line.

This is another perfect example of people desperately wanting to push the idea that their opinions matter just as much as anyone else's...so that way they aren't "wrong", or there's nothing "wrong" with what they like...

Well, maybe consider the possibility that some people might just know what they're talking about, and others might not...

And I'm not saying this guy knows what he's talking about simply because I agree with him...he's just frankly pointing out what goes on all the time surrounding MJ, his fans, and his music...and not buttering it up which most people do when it comes to MJ.

Think of everything you want to say before you make the post, that way you won't have to keep posting multiple times. Messageboard courtesy, EP.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
He actually likes Michael Jackson...just not anymore.

And of course everything he stated is opinion...there are no facts about this stuff. But I had a hard time disagreeing with a single point in any one of his last 4 posts because they're all pretty much right on.

What, that insane black people treat him like a black god? Get real.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Just becasue you and others might not be getting it, or are letting your feelings about MJ's music get in the way, doesn't meen his opinion is less valid.

Why do you do that? Why do you insist we don't "get" things just because you disagree? Do YOU think you actually "get" everything? You obviously just use that excuse when your arguments get whooped.

His opinion isn't valid, it's biased because he's upset that he isn't making music he likes anymore. HE is the one letting his opinion of Jackson or Jackson's music get in the way of his opinion.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
MJ is finished, people who gawk over him are unfortunately cluelesss, and that's the bottom line.

He's not finished is he? He's clearly still putting out albums. He will be finished when he decides he is finished. YOU thinking he is "done" does not make it so, EP. Put your feelings of him aside, take your own advice.

Then again, you did say Prince and The Rolling Stones were "finished" too, so I'm not too sure how much weight we can place on your arguments.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
This is another perfect example of people desperately wanting to push the idea that their opinions matter just as much as anyone else's...so that way they aren't "wrong".

If it's opinion it's not wrong anyway, so your argument makes no sense.

Someone's opinion doesn't have to "matter", if it's a subjective argument, someone saying "Your opinion doesn't matter to me.", it doesn't mean a thing.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Well, maybe consider the possibility that some people might just know what they're talking about, and others might not...

Like us, and you. We know, you don't. This is proven by the fact that you hold the belief: "I agree with him, there for he's right, I'm right, the rest are clueless and don't get it.". You're best friends with people who might slightly agree with you, or whom you agree with, because nobody else does.

I realise I'm not gonna get a reply because you continually insist I'm baiting you even when I try to have a proper discussion, but whatever.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
And I'm not saying this knows what he's talking about simply because I agree with him...he knows what he' talking about because he simply says what's goes on in front of our very eyes.

I've never seen "insane black people" do that, neither have you. He made a stupid, race-based comment that you are agreeing with because you're changing what he said.

Then you say dumb things like: "Just curious, when you hear the name 'Michael Jackson', do you just automically think...'Michael Jackson'?".

Of course I do, it's the same man. Do I think he has as much acclaim, or can do as well? No. I see what you're saying; People rate him, still, as a man who could produce another Thriller simply because of his name. I do not, and I think that's silly. However, the ability NOT to do that doesn't make him bad.

-AC

Ok. AC's here doing his thing. Guess that means I'm gone.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Well, when someone says something dumb, I assume dumb. I'm not going to sit here and morph his sentence into something less stupid.

I liked this post, was funny.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Ok. AC's here doing his thing. Guess that means I'm gone.

Can't you just reply? Why do you keep insisting I'm attacking you? If you're scared, admit you're scared. If you can't reply, admit it, but don't turn every reply into some crusade to prove I'm bullying you or some shit, it's tired and pathetic.

Put me on ignore, that way, I can reply and you won't have to see it.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Can't you just reply?

And I don't want this turning into another me vs. you thread. I know you won't agree with anything I say, so what's the point...so you can have an avenue to vent and call me dumb and stupid?

No thanks.

To everyone else...

I think it's important for people to stop and think sometimes that maybe their own opinion might not be as valid as someone else's (in certain areas), simply because it happens to be their own and would just like to think it's as valid. But that's not the way things work...sorry.

Sure, you could say I can do the same...and I do all the time. But if I think my opinion might be more valid (in certain areas) I give a billion reasons why...and if you have reasons too then let's hear them. But don't just say "that's just your opinion" which is what A LOT of people here do all the time. That just shows a lack of maturity and disregard I'm afraid.

I don't care how much anyone here loves MJ...he's done...and maybe consider that how you feel about him might not be an adequate reflection of his abilites as an artist.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I think it's important for people to stop and think sometimes that maybe their own opinion might not be as valid as someone else's (in certain areas), simply because it happens to be their own and would just like to think it's as valid. But that's not the way things work...sorry.

What would you propose makes someone's opinion MORE valid? Though still opinion.

F.A.O: Anyone else. Someone else ask him this so he doesn't dodge it.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Sure, you could say I can do the same...and I do all the time. But if I think my opinion might be more valid (in certain areas) I give a billion reasons why...and if you have reasons too then let's hear them. But don't just say "that's just your opinion" which is what A LOT of people here do all the time. That just shows a lack of maturity and disregard.

No, you haven't ever given reasons. Why do you think your opinion is more valid than anyone's here? Because you convince yourself that you can separate opinion from "truth"? I.e; You say you like crap music, even if you like it?

Is that one of them? That doesn't make your opinion more valid.

Regardless, it IS just someone's opinion. Informed, more valid or not, it is just opinion.

What makes SOMEONE'S opinion more valid to you? Not your own, someone else's. What would it take for you to say to someone; "You have a more valid opinion than others."?

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I don't care how much anyone here loves MJ...he's done...and maybe consider that how you feel about him might not be an adequate reflection of his abilites as an artist.

Who cares about what you "care" about? He's not "done" because you say he is, EP. He's not "done" because you think he is and give reasons why. If someone still likes his music enough to buy his albums, if he's still putting out albums, he's not done.

Not knocking out Thriller albums every two years doesn't make him "done".

Abilities as an artist? People who don't even LIKE his music have credited his abilities as a great singer and an expressive performer. Even if that was back in the day, there are people who will still like him.

Stop assuming we're all defending him because we're blind, because it's silly. Anyone you disagree with, you say "You don't get it." or "Consider you might be wrong.". No, you're being ignorant.

-AC

Originally posted by §P0oONY
So he's now a black man who turned in to a white man that is now turning back in to a black man?

Yeah apparently he's trying to get back to his roots. (its about damn time)

And I seriously wonder what his song with 50 is gonna be about. I just cant picture the two of them in the same song.

Technically he hired Teddy Riley for Dangerous because he wanted it to have a sound more in common with his roots.

-AC

Like AC said, I hope one day we can have a thread about Michael Jackson's music, one day.

I love Michael Jackson, he is a musical God to me, and what he did for popular music is undeniable.

As for his new album, is there a source that its coming out in nov. 2007. The thing is that I knew there were strong rumors of an album coming out in 2007, but I just didn't think it would really come out in 2007. MJ has always delayed his released, if anything, I was expecting it to come late 08 or early 09.

It is unfortunate that MJ has to collaborate with artists like 50 cent and that black eyed peas dude. To me it seems like he is trying to attract the younger generation of today into his music by collaborating with these artists. I absolutely believe he should not be doing this, but it may well be true that he will end up collaborating with those artists. I just hope all his album isn't filled with tracks with mainstream hip-hop artists, because I believe those are his weakest songs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiyT0Jq8JvY

This gives us some insight as to what he's gonna be doing now.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
...it's amazes me that someone who doesn't even like Jackson would spend so much time in a Michael Jackson thread trying to explain why people shouldn't like MJ. I like Michael's music. Most of his best songs came after Thriller such as Bad, Smooth Criminal, Dangerous, Will You Be There, Heal the World, Leave Me Alone, Black or White, You Rock My World, Jam, Man in the Mirror, and so many other wonderful songs.

Really his performances on stage and on his music videos are for the sole purpose of entertainment. Frankly; most music videos are dull and boring. At least MJ gives you a reason to watch his video. And also he gives you a reason to go to a concert since he actually puts on a performance instead of just paying about $100+ just to listen to the same songs you could hear on his CD.

Everything you have stated vintageSW77 is your opinion not fact. Fact is MJ is one of the (if not) best selling artists of all time. Only the Beatles and Elvis has a chance on being equal and/or surpassing sells. There is a reason MJ managed to sell so many records and it wasn't for having an image.

sales dont mean shit to me
theres a lot of bands out there who have struggled for 20 years getting cracking reviews making innovative music who dont sell so much whilst Westlife sell millions and im sure the majority of his sales have been on a steady decline since 84 only upped by another greatest hits package here and there

and dont be too amazed by someone coming back and forth to a thread over a period of two hours...it isnt a big deal
i used to like Jacko a lot
some of his Jackson 5 stuff like say LOOKING THROUGH THE WINDOW are personal faves and OFF THE WALL is one of my top albums of all time
i just dislike nearly everything about Jacko post Thriller from the sachrine make you want to puke MOR tunes and bland pop rNb to his he can do no wrong fan base who follow him blindy like some Paedo Piper

everyones entitled to their own opinion,critisizms and mine and quite a few others is that Heal the World,Man in the mirror etc are cliche ridden pap...the kind of stuff best suited to appearing as background music on those tv shows featuring "brave" people whove overcome the odds against great adversity and the inspiration behind R KELLY and his god awful heart felt uplifting ballads - not a good thing
His last big single - Rock My world was just a non entity of a song..a tune far more memorable for the video..again this time not because of the budget or the obligatory guest star but the fact that Jacko looks like something out of The Mummy Returns only far more frightening
...nothing to do with the music?
well tell that to the kids who watch mtv "24/7"...its all about the image
as a "pop" star Jacko is great..probably the most interesting weve had in our lifetime but the tunes arent there anymore
hed be far better off concentrating on greatest hits tours than bringing out a new album with this week big thing

ive said my bit and im off because AC has again turned another music thread into another "beef" with EPIII
and life is too short to read another thread filled with that

Innovative doesn't mean crap. And it seems that you just don't agree with Alpha so you say he's attacking EPIII even though Alpha has made nothing but amazing points in the argument and neither of you have stated anything other than your opinion so you call it attacking.

Originally posted by vintageSW77
i just dislike nearly everything about Jacko post Thriller

Thriller is obviously his peak musically, but I think as a dancer/choreographer/entertainer his stuff in the 90s was insane.

I've seen footage of him doing the robot and stuff live in 90s concerts and the guy is literally out of this world. It's like he moves in his own time and space or something.

And that smooth criminal/leaning forward thing he does??? That's MJ's star shining. That IS genius.

Come '00 though and he's making appearnaces onstage with 'NSYNC and stuff...and it's the saddest thing you've ever seen. The guy is a step behind, looking almost drunk and 80. And considering he also hasn't done antything musically significant for about a decade, it's pretty safe to say he's finished.

Originally posted by ESB -1138
Innovative doesn't mean crap....Alpha has made nothing but amazing points in the argument...

**** the album, he should release another game. That one for the sega mega drive was killer.

Originally posted by vintageSW77
well tell that to the kids who watch mtv "24/7"...its all about the image

Exactly, kids. It's still nothing to do with the music, is it? The way he looks is factually nothing to do with the quality of music he makes. People who judge music on how good or bad the person looks are idiots.

Furthermore, I've not turned this into a beef, I'm replying on topic and he's ignoring me despite that. Sooner or later people are going to realise what he's doing.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Y'know...maybe he's right. What do we know?

What do you mean what do WE know? Stop speaking for everyone other than yourself.

WE know what we know, if you know nothing, and it appears that's the case, then stop speaking. Don't try to drag us down to your level because you feel you're good or something.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
I think I might be more of a fan of the other apsects of MJ than you are...'cause as a creative force he certainly had lots to offer until the early 90's.

Thriller is obviously his peak musically, but I think as a dancer/choreographer/entertainer his stuff in the 90s was insane.

I've seen footage of him doing the robot and stuff live in 90s concerts and the guy is literally out of this world. It's like he moves in his own time and space or something.

And that smooth criminal/leaning forward thing he does??? That's MJ's star shining. That IS genius.

Come '00 though and he's making appearnaces onstage with 'NSYNC and stuff...and it's the saddest thing you've ever seen. The guy is a step behind, looking almost drunk and 80. And considering he also hasn't done antything musically significant for about a decade, it's pretty safe to say he's finished.

A) The lean forward wasn't actually him doing it, it was wirework, but I guess that's what makes him a great performer.

B) It's not safe to say he's anything close to finished. You think he's not good anymore, fine, but he's not finished because you say he is.

-AC

Not on stage. On stage his lean is thanks to special shoes that attach to the stage so his feet remain stationary.