Originally posted by Alliance
Well, its been demonstrated that that is not the actual case.
I haven't read the entire thread. Are you saying someone has established a causal connection between believing homosexuality is immoral and having hatred toward homosexuals?
If the statistics are correct then ~33% of all people on the planet claim to be an adherent of Christianity. Another 21% or so claim to be Muslim. The idea that homosexuality is immoral is orthodoxy in both of those faiths. That's well over 3,000,000,000 people. I can't see how such a claim about that many people is anything other than hasty generalization.
Originally posted by Ytse
I haven't read the entire thread. Are you saying someone has established a causal connection between believing homosexuality is immoral and having hatred toward homosexuals?If the statistics are correct then ~33% of all people on the planet claim to be an adherent of Christianity. Another 21% or so claim to be Muslim. The idea that homosexuality is immoral is orthodoxy in both of those faiths. That's well over 3,000,000,000 people. I can't see how such a claim about that many people is anything other than hasty generalization.
Nice BS arguement, just like your first one that because you know x Christians (a number that regardless is non-representative), Chirstians do not commit crimes against homosexuals that would also be considered immoral.
Also, the immorality of homosexuality is NOT orthodoxy in all Christian faiths.
What I said is that people commit violent crimes aginst homosexuals BECAUSE of their homosexuality. Clearly is there is no link between Christianity and violent acts against homosexuals, it won't concern you at all, so why protest?
Why should that not carry a higher penalty than simliar random, violent acts?
Originally posted by Alliance
Nice BS arguement, just like your first one that because you know x Christians (a number that regardless is non-representative), Chirstians do not commit crimes against homosexuals that would also be considered immoral.
Chill out. I wasn't even arguing earlier when I said that. I was just giving my personal experience. And what about what I said was BS anyway?
Also, the immorality of homosexuality is NOT orthodoxy in all Christian faiths.
In the large majority it is.
What I said is that people commit violent crimes aginst homosexuals BECAUSE of their homosexuality.
The perp's homosexuality?
Clearly is there is no link between Christianity and violent acts against homosexuals, it won't concern you at all, so why protest?
Sarcasm? Why're you being so hostile?
Originally posted by Ytse
Chill out. I wasn't even arguing earlier when I said that. I was just giving my personal experience. And what about what I said was BS anyway?
The representativeness of your data.
Originally posted by Ytse
In the large majority it is.
Originally posted by Ytse
The perp's homosexuality?
Originally posted by Ytse
Sarcasm? Why're you being so hostile?
Not sarcasm. Not hostility. Can you answer or are you just dodging?
Originally posted by Alliance
The representativeness of your data.
How so?
Ahh...exceptions are notable.
It still represents billions of people who hold that homosexuality is immoral.
Whats a prep?
perpetrator
Not sarcasm. Not hostility. Can you answer or are you just dodging?
I don't think I said it shouldn't carry a higher penalty. I don't think I even addressed that at all. What I am saying is that there is no causal connection between a belief that homosexuality is immoral and violent acts or even hatred toward homosexuals. So, expressing that view shouldn't be considered "gay bashing." And I was saying this in response to something Starhawk said.
Originally posted by Ytse
How so?
The you have no verification that the people you know are repesentative of Christian views.
Originally posted by Ytse
It still represents billions of people who hold that homosexuality is immoral.
No, it doesn't. I know many Christians who think there is nothing immoral about homosexuality. Your're claiming absolutist views based on "teachings." If this was so...in an 80% Christian nation, you'd expect 80% of the peopel to believe Christianity is immoral. Thats not the case.
Originally posted by Ytse
perpetrator.
Originally posted by YtseProof? It seems to me that if you don't value someone, you have not problem kicking their ass.
What I am saying is that there is no causal connection between a belief that homosexuality is immoral and violent acts or even hatred toward homosexuals.
Originally posted by Alliance
The you have no verification that the people you know are repesentative of Christian views.
I'm not talking about people I know. I'm talking about the billions of people who claim to adhere to either Islam or Christianity. And the mainstream of both of those faiths is to hold that homosexuality is immoral.
No, it doesn't.
I don't think you're understanding:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups
If greater than 3 billion people claim to be either Muslim or Christian. And if it's mainstream orthodoxy in both of those faiths to hold that homosexuality is immoral. Then a large portion of those people will also hold that homosexuality is immoral.
Wow, then you really can't read.
Yeah, I just happen to press keys randomly and they tend to form words for some reason.
Proof? It seems to me that if you don't value someone, you have not problem kicking their ass.
Don't value someone? Where did that come from?
Originally posted by Ytse
I'm not talking about people I know. I'm talking about the billions of people who claim to adhere to either Islam or Christianity. And the mainstream of both of those faiths is to hold that homosexuality is immoral.If greater than 3 billion people claim to be either Muslim or Christian. And if it's mainstream orthodoxy in both of those faiths to hold that homosexuality is immoral. Then a large portion of those people will also hold that homosexuality is immoral.
Define "large"?
You're missing the point as always. Subscription to a religion does not mean you follow all the policies.
In 2003 (the most recent poll I could find free), 54% of americans said homosexuality was "an acceptable alternative lifestyle." I can garuntee that nuber has only increased and we will drag the dilly-dalliers through just like we did in the 60's with racism.
So, there seemse to be a GLARING disjunction between your religious "canon" and the actual beliefs of citizens.
Therfore, your point is crap and is merely you attempting to justify bigotry in society.
Originally posted by Ytse
Yeah, I just happen to press keys randomly and they tend to form words for some reason.
Originally posted by Ytse
I haven't read the entire thread. Are you saying someone has established a causal connection between believing homosexuality is immoral and having hatred toward homosexuals?If the statistics are correct then ~33% of all people on the planet claim to be an adherent of Christianity. Another 21% or so claim to be Muslim. The idea that homosexuality is immoral is orthodoxy in both of those faiths. That's well over 3,000,000,000 people. I can't see how such a claim about that many people is anything other than hasty generalization.
Not all people reather they are christian or not are against gays.There is no way of proving that as a fact.Just thought I would say that.There is no hate about it either.
It is to some people unature and yes a moral sin.Weather people argee with that or not it is there choice.But we should not go around forcing others to accept this which they are not going to anything.
So again why brother?jm 🙂
Originally posted by Alliance
You're missing the point as always. Subscription to a religion does not mean you follow all the policies.
Missing the point as always, eh? What does that even mean? I've been here for all of two days and I've missed every point everyone has tried to make? Haha.
No, it doesn't mean you follow all the "policies" if you subscribe to a religion. I am saying that since it is orthodoxy (this is the key word) to hold such a view in the mainstream of both of those religions it is reasonable to assume that a large portion of those people also hold that homosexuality is immoral.
Now, thus far your only responses have been to state the obvious. Such as not every single adherent will follow said views, etc. Are you honestly telling me my assumption here about the majority of Christian and Muslim adherents is unreasonable? I mean, if we follow your line of reasoning then we cannot make ANY generalized statement at all about people of the same faith.
In 2003 (the most recent poll I could find free), 54% of americans said homosexuality was "an acceptable alternative lifestyle."
Sounds dubious to me.
Therfore, your point is crap and is merely you attempting to justify bigotry in society.
Wow. That wasn't just a normal leap in logic. It was a quantum leap. Let's examine what you just did:
1)You cite a mysterious source saying that 54% of all Americans say homosexuality is "an acceptable alternative lifestyle" which is quite vague in the first place.
2) You totally ignore the fact that even if this were totally accurate that it isn't even a poll of Christians or Muslims. It's a poll of Americans. Americans number some 300 million. Christians number some 2 billion. Muslims a little bit under that. This doesn't even begin to deal with a significant portion of these people.
3) And somehow you came to the conclusion that this not only proves that most Christians do not think homosexuality is immoral, but that holding such a belief is necessarily bigotry.
Sorry, I'll be certian to confuse "response" with "comprehension" from now on.
May the force be with you.
Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
Not all people reather they are christian or not are against gays.There is no way of proving that as a fact.Just thought I would say that.There is no hate about it either.
Absolutely not. In my eyes it's certianly wrong to carry hatred around for homosexuals or anyone else. I don't even like to talk about people in such a generalized way because one's humanity is far more important than their sexuality. But that's the way arguing has to go sometimes for the sake of brevity.
Re: The Thought Police (new hate crimes law)...
Originally posted by sithsaber408
[b]The Thought Police
By Chuck Colson
5/1/2007What the Hate Crimes Law Would Do
In George Orwell’s classic novel 1984, the government Thought Police constantly spies on citizens to make sure they are not thinking rebellious thoughts. Thought crimes are severely punished by Big Brother.
1984 was intended as a warning against totalitarian governments that enslave and control their citizens. Never have we needed this warning more urgently than now, because America’s Thought Police are knocking on your door.
Last week the House Judiciary Committee, egged on by radical homosexual groups, passed what can only be called a Thought Crimes bill. It’s called the Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act. But this bill is not about hate. It’s not even about crime. It’s about outlawing peaceful speech—speech that asserts that homosexual behavior is morally wrong.
Some say we need this law to prevent attacks on homosexuals. But we already have laws against assaults on people and property. Moreover, according to the FBI, crimes against homosexuals in the United States have dropped dramatically in recent years. In 2005, out of 863,000 cases of aggravated assault, just 177 cases were crimes of bias against homosexuals—far less than even 1 percent.
Another problem is that in places where hate crimes laws have been passed, hate crimes have been defined to include verbal attacks—and even peaceful speech. The Thought Police have already prosecuted Christians under hate crimes laws in England, Sweden, Canada, and even in some places in the United States.
If this dangerous law passes, pastors who preach sermons giving the biblical view of homosexuality could be prosecuted. Christian businessmen who refuse to print pro-gay literature could be prosecuted. Groups like Exodus International, which offer therapy to those with unwanted same-sex attraction, could be shut down.
In classic 1984 fashion, peaceful speech will be redefined as a violent attack worthy of punishment.
This is the unspoken goal of activist groups. We know this because during the debate over the bill last week, Congressman Mike Pence (R) of Indiana offered a Freedom of Religion amendment to this hate crimes bill. It asked that nothing in this law limit the "religious freedom" of any person or group under the Constitution. The committee refused to adopt it. It also refused to adopt amendments protecting other groups from hate crimes—like members of the military, who are often targets of verbal attacks and spitting. They also shot down amendments that would protect the homeless and senior citizens, also often targeted by criminals. Nothing doing, the committee said—the only group they wanted to protect: homosexuals.
Clearly, the intent of this law is not to prevent crime, but to shut down freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom of thought. Its passage would strike at the very heart of our democracy.
The full Congress may vote on this bill as early as this week. Unless you want Big Brother telling you what to say, what to think, and what to believe, I urge you to contact your congressman immediately, urging him or her to vote against this bill. If you visit the BreakPoint website, you’ll find more information about this radical law.
If we do nothing, 1984 will no longer be fiction, and Big Brother will be watching you and me—ready to punish the “wrong” thoughts.
^^^Read that editorial today.
Now while I'm not for anybody being hit or hurt, or even demeaned for race, gender, orientation, etc.....
I don't want somebody arresting my pastor because as a minister he gives the Bible's view on homosexuality.
Thoughts? [/B]
That is actually sort of ridiculous. I have no prob with homosexuals. I believe homosexuals should be able to enjoy the same rights as anyone, including marriage and the benefits that come with it. But this is actually something that might be uncalled for. If a bunch of backwards homophobes want to organize in their place of worship and spout their anti-hoosexual nonsense, let them. Everyone already knows they are a dying breed, anyway. Let them have what little they have left.
On the other hand, SithSaber, you wouldn't be posting this because you are really concerned about free speech would you? This wouldn't be because you are a homophobe, would it?