Post-KOTOR Revan & Ulic Qel-Droma vs. ROTS Mace & Palpatine

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's in the NeC, mate. Revan killed Mandalore in hand to hand, that's true.

Though let's give credit where credit's due: Revan is a rather exceptional prodigy

Revan was a prodigy (but that's expected he's one of the heroes of Kotor) but how does beating Mandalore equate to being on par with Yoda?

Mace crushed guys hand to hand that were tougher than Mandalore, does that mean we use those feats as proof of his parity with Yoda?

Now do you actually define the authority of authors in Star Wars?

Yes, that's right. I decide what an authority is and what an authority isn't when it comes to Star Wars. I am Leeland Ch - no! I'm George Lucas himself, browsing an internet forum for no particular reason.

Get real.

I quite handily pointed out how stupid it is to say that Drew is an 'authority' on Star Wars simply because he delivered his opinion on Revan's power compared to Yoda's. Lucas is the only one-man-source in this universe when it comes to Star Wars. Drew is not a G-canon source, even when it concerns Revan, so his opinion on Revan is not automatically canon. Period. Otherwise, Kevin J. Anderson's opinion that The Most Powerful Sith Ever would come down to Exar Kun or Palpatine proves that those two are equals and the most powerful Sith ever. But they aren't equals, simply because he says so.

Opinions of SW Authors are taken in to consideration by Lucas Arts before they pass final judgments on SW Characters as long as those opinions do not contradict with opinions of GL and if some do, consultations with GL are also made.

No. An author can rattle off any opinion he or she has on a character without the approval of LucasArts. They simply can't publish said opinion and attempt to pass it off as fact. Drew's opinion on Revan can be used as a source, but only in a supportive role. Simply saying that 'since Drew said this about Revan and Yoda, it must be true' is not the case.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
It's in the NeC, mate. Revan killed Mandalore in hand to hand, that's true.

Though let's give credit where credit's due: Revan is a rather exceptional prodigy

Ah, thanks snake, wasn't sure before.

And I in no way shape or form deny that Revan is a powerful individual, not to mention a well written character overall, but I do think that some hype up his abilities and feats, which really only serves to cheapen the character (see: Bane)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Do you even realize that Malak was a master practitioner of Force Lightning? He himself instantly killed a Jedi Knight on Star Forge with a single blow of his Lightning. Revan had to face Malak’s lethal Lightning and managed to counter it effectively or Malak would have won.

Originally posted by Gideon
Yes, that's right. I decide what an authority is and what an authority isn't when it comes to Star Wars. I am Leeland Ch - no! I'm George Lucas himself, browsing an internet forum for no particular reason.

Get real.

I quite handily pointed out how stupid it is to say that Drew is an 'authority' on Star Wars simply because he delivered his opinion on Revan's power compared to Yoda's. Lucas is the only one-man-source in this universe when it comes to Star Wars. Drew is not a G-canon source, even when it concerns Revan, so his opinion on Revan is not automatically canon. Period. Otherwise, Kevin J. Anderson's opinion that The Most Powerful Sith Ever would come down to Exar Kun or Palpatine proves that those two are equals and the most powerful Sith ever. But they aren't equals, simply because he says so.

No. An author can rattle off any opinion he or she has on a character without the approval of LucasArts. They simply can't publish said opinion and attempt to pass it off as fact. Drew's opinion on Revan can be used as a source, but only in a supportive role. Simply saying that 'since Drew said this about Revan and Yoda, it must be true' is not the case.

Drew is an absolute authority on the subject of Revan. His opinions regarding Revan hold some credibility.

Let me give you can example: Drew wrote a novel on Darth Bane and made several alterations to his story and also up-lifted the image of Revan in that Novel and even went as far as giving the credit of Rule of Two to Revan. Now all these changes got accepted or approved by Lucas Arts or whatever and are now considered to be canon.

So what he wants to get accepted, it gets accepted as evident from the above example. And you do not need to lecture me about limitations of a Star Wars author. I do know about them and you are taking things out of context.

Anyways! my main point is that opinions of SW Authors do hold some credibility.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Right malak killed a weakened jedi who was already dying and that jedi was far below malak in power, And revan dying if he gets hit by malaks lightning? Please revan might just get knocked out or a little bit stunned as yoda did

And Malak is among the most powerful Force Users of his time. His attacks are highly effective and I am not surprised to see that he could kill a Jedi in a single blow. When Duron Qel Droma saw visions about Malak, he too got scared.

Originally posted by Pwned61
And you're really pumping up Revans feats here, like saying he easily beat the Terentakek beasts, you'll have to back that one up.

Whoops!

Originally posted by Pwned61
Or that he "single handedly" fought through that army, when I seem to remember him having two allies with him through those fights.

Sith commander: “Your entire army of Star Forge Super-Battle Droids have failed, my Lord”.
Darth Malak replies: “How is that possible?”
Sith Commander replies: “Revan is with them”.
Darth Malak again replies: “Yes! Now I understand. Revan was always strong in the Force”.

Whoops!

And Revan again had to face an entire army of SF Battle Droids before he went on to challenge Darth Malak in his chamber. Revan single-handedly destroyed that army as well along with those generators that were constantly developing them.

Whoops!

Originally posted by Pwned61
And out of curiosity, where does it say that he beat Mandalore in hand to hand combat, I've heard others say this, but I don't remember ever hearing this said.

Whoops!

Originally posted by Allankles
Thicker than a box of rocks.

Let me put it to you in a way that you'll understand. You see, Revan is a fictional character who only exists in the pages of EU works. If no official licensed EU source comments on Revan's abilities, then those abilities simply don't exist.

Now, I'm not arguing about Revan's TK (it's a basic ability he should have) but I'm not going to assume that he could toss senate pods with Sidious. I'm also not going to take Drew K's comments into consideration unless he gets licence to make an EU source book or story on those abilities.

It's that simple, if you weren't so thick I wouldn't have to repeat myself. Comments by an author out of universe are no more valuable than any other fanboys comments, they share the same problem, they're both unlicensed.

Originally posted by Allankles
Lastly, you clearly don't appreciate Yoda's combat abilities. Yoda's combat capabilities exceed anything Revan has been shown to possess.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That Jedi Knight was not greatly weakened. He was held by a Force Grip of Malak but could not resist it. If he really was greatly weakened, Malak did not needed to use a highly lethal darkside technique like Force Lightning to kill him. He could have easily killed him with a Force Choke.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Malak is among the most powerful Force Users of his time. His attacks are highly effective and I am not surprised to see that he could kill a Jedi in a single blow. When Duron Qel Droma saw visions about Malak, he too got scared.

Lastly killing droids doesnt mean shit weather its in huge numbers or not, you yourself told me that when i brought up the case about vader slaying dozens of droids who wielded lightsabers and is described to be at the level of jedi master swordsman

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I do appreciate Yoda'a combat abilities. He is the most impressive Jedi in PT & OT periods. And Revan's feats are close in terms of being impressive, if not better.

Revans greatest feat is using the entire dark side of malachor to aid him during the war i think

Originally posted by Kadesh
Prove that he wasnt weakened and so what if that guy got choked? Weather or not your a strong force user, you can easily kill a jedi with choke if he doesnt throw up a defence or resist it. O wait he was already getting choked right? So that means he is having his life squeezed out of him so therefore malak using lighting doesnt = insta kill.

And Malak is a master practitioner of Force Lightning and his Lightning attacks were highly lethal. He could break the will of even a strong Jedi with his Lightning and he could even kill a Jedi quickly with his Lightning, if he wanted to do so. All this is evident from KOTOR.

Originally posted by Kadesh
While im not suprised that he killed a dying jedi knight, he could have kept them alive because he wanted to demonstrate to revan how powerful he is on the starforge and so what if duron was scared shitless of the vision of malak? That doesnt mean malak is uber powerful but powerful? Of course malak is.

Originally posted by Kadesh
Besides i doubt lightning kills a powerful jedi easily, look at yoda for example. Inferior or weaker jedis then yes but that doesnt count

Originally posted by Kadesh
Lastly killing droids doesnt mean shit weather its in huge numbers or not, you yourself told me that when i brought up the case about vader slaying dozens of droids who wielded lightsabers and is described to be at the level of jedi master swordsman

The SF Super Battle Droids were powerful enough to deal with the threat of Jedi as even Malak said so. Only Revan dealt with them.

You are comparing apples and oranges here.

Originally posted by Pwned61
but I do think that some hype up his abilities and feats, which really only serves to cheapen the character (see: Bane)

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

During the Battle of Star Forge, a Sith Commander and Darth Malak met with each other to discuss the situation of the battle inside the Star Forge and following conversation took place between them:

Except, nothing in that conversation states that Revan was capable of single handedly fighting his way through the star forge, only that he did the majority of the work, which I would have agreed with from the get go

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Revan again had to face an entire army of SF Battle Droids before he went on to challenge Darth Malak in his chamber. Revan single-handedly destroyed that army as well along with those generators that were constantly developing them.

Whoops!

First off, I'd hardly call what he fought an army, an impressive number to be sure, but there's only like 6 consoles in the room, correct? Plus, it's hard to tell how that whole scene went down considering that you are capable of summoning up your own allies after all.

Leeland Chee mentioned this in TNEC.

Whoops! [/B][/QUOTE]

Snake already covered this, but all the same sorry.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

First of all it is important to note that Force Grip is not Force Choke. The primary purpose of Force Grip is to immobilize a target and Malak actually Force Gripped those two Jedi simultaneously and was not Choking them, or else those two Jedi would have died.

Is there any cannon difference between the to? And seeing as how the in game animation between the two is identical how can you say for sure that it's one or the other? And chocking is not an instantaneous death, they could have been held there for a time being slowly suffocated without dieing.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Malak is a master practitioner of Force Lightning and his Lightning attacks were highly lethal. He could break the will of even a strong Jedi with his Lightning and he could even kill a Jedi quickly with his Lightning, if he wanted to do so. All this is evident from KOTOR.

We see him use force lightning twice, first on Bastila, which doesn't alone break her will, if you remember Duron's vision we see Bastila being tortured by a machine as well. The second time we see him use force lightning, it's used to kill an unarmed probably weakened jedi

If you want to see a master of force lightning, look no further than Sidious, before even his DE incarnation he was already capable of unleashing a burst of force lightning strong enough to kill a hundred storm-troopers. And before you bring it up again, I don't know of anything that proves that Revan destroyed all the scout parties in one attack.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
First of all it is important to note that Force Grip is not Force Choke. The primary purpose of Force Grip is to immobilize a target and Malak actually Force Gripped those two Jedi simultaneously and was not Choking them, or else those two Jedi would have died.

Hence they must be having the life slowly squeezed out of them thus when malak struck with lightning, they couldnt even resist it. And dont forgot that 1) Those jedi were weaklings 2) This is SF malak, His powers were enhanced greatly 3) Stronger sith lords > inferior jedis

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Malak is a master practitioner of Force Lightning and his Lightning attacks were highly lethal. He could break the will of even a strong Jedi with his Lightning and he could even kill a Jedi quickly with his Lightning, if he wanted to do so. All this is evident from KOTOR.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Those two Jedi Knights were not dying. They were struggling to get free from Malak’s Force Grip but it was a useless effort. And he demonstrated his power by killing one instantly with a Saber Throw attack and the other one with his Force Lightning.

Bottom line? He was already slowly squeezing the life out of the 2 jedis then proceded to kill them

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

A powerful burst of Force Lightning is lethal to any living being. However powerful and experienced Jedi like Revan and Yoda can defend against such an attack because they knew how to.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Vader engaged those Droids for practice sessions.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

The SF Super Battle Droids were powerful enough to deal with the threat of Jedi as even Malak said so. Only Revan dealt with them.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

You are comparing apples and oranges here.

Wookiepedia is a dubious source at best. Force grip doesn't necessarily have to apply much, if any pressure on the intended victim, other than the required amount to lift them in the air, and the like. You can "strangle" or "crush" with it, but it's not as if it has to happen within the same whim. It's definitely possible to simply use the technique to raise a target (which is noted in TotJ Companion).

(Edit)

So you're clearly mistaken if you believe that he definitely had been inflicting damage beforehand. It's useless to argue that he did, but it's also useless to argue he didn't, given that there's no indication of either case happening as far as I'm aware of.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Are you basing this on how Malak calls Revan stronger as a Jedi than he was as a Sith? If so, that would be Malak’s fallible opinion - bear in mind Chronicles states Malak didn’t even know everything Revan knew when the latter was the dark lord of the Sith. As you can see, I would honestly question whether Malak knew what the hell he was talking about.

I think this is a very good point.

I think some of these "sources" need to looked at objectively for once and not taken at face value. Malak confesses that Revan is stronger as a Jedi in a highly dramatic peak of the KOTOR narrative; it is the antagonist's breaking point, the point where he sees things the way the player does, the veil is thrown down and rose tinted glasses are abandoned.

It is only fitting that the antagonist makes a confession of this kind, a send up to the character of Revan, the player themselves, a victory for the player that gives a little more than dev. credits and a new item to play around with. This compliment tells the player they have finally defeated the villain, and not only thrown him down an endless shaft, but defeated his ideals too.

Understand, it is a comment that could be considered a canon source, yet also realise that you have to put these sources into context. Malak's dying words would have got the Lucas stamp of approval because it worked for the script and the game, not because it slotted in neatly as a canonical fact.

The same could be said of Yoda's comment, not to disregard it at all.

Originally posted by Advent

So you're clearly mistaken if you believe that he definitely had been inflicting damage beforehand. It's useless to argue that he did, but it's also useless to argue he didn't, given that there's no indication of either case happening as far as I'm aware of.

It should be noted that the Jedi were clearly suffering (notice how they clutched at their throats) before Malak killed them. Malak was strangling their throats or probably just their wind pipes.

A grip doesn't necessarily have to inflict damage, but Malak was inflicting damage with his grip.

As for this argument Revan isn't on Yoda's level combat wise.

Originally posted by exanda kane
I think this is a very good point.

I think some of these "sources" need to looked at objectively for once and not taken at face value. Malak confesses that Revan is stronger as a Jedi in a highly dramatic peak of the KOTOR narrative; it is the antagonist's breaking point, the point where he sees things the way the player does, the veil is thrown down and rose tinted glasses are abandoned.

It is only fitting that the antagonist makes a confession of this kind, a send up to the character of Revan, the player themselves, a victory for the player that gives a little more than dev. credits and a new item to play around with. This compliment tells the player they have finally defeated the villain, and not only thrown him down an endless shaft, but defeated his ideals too.

Understand, it is a comment that could be considered a canon source, yet also realise that you have to put these sources into context. Malak's dying words would have got the Lucas stamp of approval because it worked for the script and the game, not because it slotted in neatly as a canonical fact.

The same could be said of Yoda's comment, not to disregard it at all.

Actually, If I remember correctly, Malak actually admits to Revan's superior power as a jedi just before their fight begins, up to that point he's still very confident in his abilities to defeat Revan, so the statement wasn't made out of fear or any sudden realization

Originally posted by Allankles
(notice how they clutched at their throats)

That's wonderful, but it's rather impossible to notice something you've never seen, can you enlighten me as to at which point in the game this happens?

Originally posted by exanda kane
I think this is a very good point.

I think some of these "sources" need to looked at objectively for once and not taken at face value. Malak confesses that Revan is stronger as a Jedi in a highly dramatic peak of the KOTOR narrative; it is the antagonist's breaking point, the point where he sees things the way the player does, the veil is thrown down and rose tinted glasses are abandoned.

It is only fitting that the antagonist makes a confession of this kind, a send up to the character of Revan, the player themselves, a victory for the player that gives a little more than dev. credits and a new item to play around with. This compliment tells the player they have finally defeated the villain, and not only thrown him down an endless shaft, but defeated his ideals too.

Understand, it is a comment that could be considered a canon source, yet also realise that you have to put these sources into context. Malak's dying words would have got the Lucas stamp of approval because it worked for the script and the game, not because it slotted in neatly as a canonical fact.

The same could be said of Yoda's comment, not to disregard it at all.

You have a valid point however it should be noted that Malak became stronger than before and as he clearly mentions, he'd unlocked the power of the Star forge to a magnitude Revan hadn't.

So while your point makes logical sense, Malak clearly knew what he was talking about, given that as the apprentice he was quite capable of gauging Revan's power.

And as much as I acknowledge the logic of your post it should be noted that much of what is 'canonical' about these characters is derived from the game, so why would we not take the comment at face value? The game is an authority unto itself in regards to this issue, why should it be invalidated (I'm not saying that you are)?