And Sidious was also stopped. So we can say that both of them were not unstoppable.
This is stupid, LeGenD. Unlike you with Revan, I didn't claim that Sidious was 'unstoppable' in the first place.
You forgot about the Rebellion, mate!The same Rebellion that can be credited for destruction of two Death Stars and inflicting heavy losses on the imperial forces. So Sidious never managed to establish his absolute rule over the entire Galaxy. He however did turned the Republic in to a Galactic Empire.
Lmao, are you trying to cheapen his accomplishments? The Rebellion functioned as a terrorist cell, relying on guerilla warfare and such to fight. Sidious ruled the galaxy and was the undisputed dominant force in it. Hell, the fact that he did rule the galaxy is underlined by the fact that - even after his death - when warlordism tore the Empire apart, the New Republic was still the lesser government. When the Emperor returned in 11 ABY, he retook most of the galaxy and the New Republic went back to the 'Rebel Alliance' moniker.
And Sidious also failed to prepare for an eventuality that ended his 'rule'.
Actually, he didn't. Hence the clones.
Then I blame Sidious for his failure too.
The difference is: Sidious succeeded and failed to maintain it forever. Revan never succeeded in the first place. 😉
Do you remember that Anakin once remarked in AOTC that he would one day stop people from dying? This was actually an Anakin's idea, genius!
I'm glad you recognize my intelligence for what it is. 😉
Anakin's rants in AotC don't apply. Sidious manipulated the situation and effectively gave Anakin a reason [albeit a false one] to believe that he could stop people from death. His personal reasons were the ones that Sidious wanted him to have.
What Sidious actually did was that he convinced Anakin that Dark Side is the only path through which Anakin can achieve that feat. Anakin's own fear and arrogance however played a major role in his transformation. Sidious can only be partially credited for convincing Anakin to adopt the Dark path.
Partially credited? Lmao. Sidious didn't force Anakin to turn to the dark side, but he manipulated, blackmailed, and deceived him into doing so. Anakin is at fault for making the decision, but Sidious did everything else.
Partially credited my ass.
Malak was ambitious like Revan. The Sith doctrines corrupted him to the core.
Bingo. Revan should have been prepared for that.
Anakin despite being prophesied to be The Chosen One became a Sith instead and played a massive role in one of the largest crimes that were committed in Star Wars history. Luke Skywalker should actually get credit for making his father realize his mistakes and redeem him. There is a reason that the Emperor feared Luke so much.
This is completely stupid, it has nothing to do with the point. In fact, all you're doing is supporting mine. Anakin was the Chosen One - the ultimate force of good - the one destined to bring balance to the Force. And Palpatine turned him into a pawn of the Sith, crippled and deluded. As far as the Emperor fearing Luke, the Emperor feared an end to his rule, and saw Luke as the catalyst by which that would occur (and rightfully so).
And a betrayal cannot be justified by any means regardless of who commits it. Anakin not only betrayed the Sith but he also betrayed the Jedi as well.
This is stupid, and has nothing to do with the point.
Have you forgotten about the first major defeat of Galactic Empire in ANH? Emperor was alive at that time!
Lmao! You're not getting it, dude. Nazi Germany was defeated in battles during World War II. It wasn't destroyed 'til it had suffered multiple defeats and its leaders were either killed or captured. The Rebel Alliance scoring a major victory against the Death Star means jack. Wanna know why?
Because even after the Battle of Yavin, the Empire was still - by far and far and far - the more powerful faction. Hell, there's a whole movie [tESB] that deals with the simple fact that the Rebels were on the run from the Empire the entire time. I'm not saying that they didn't suffer the occasional defeat. Hell, if you'd want to get technical, the Rebels would have been assraped had Tarkin deployed the TIE Squadrons.
Revan's Empire was very strong in its time. During the Sith Empire's height, Revan's Empire governed a large swath of the Outer Rim, including much of what was formerly known as Sith Space and some core worlds of the Republic.
Palpatine's was much, much larger, much, much stronger, and it lasted longer.
I however agree that Sidious created a bigger Empire but it does not matters.
It does actually. In this case, size does matter. Palpatine's Empire was vastly superior to Revan's. Fellating it or spinning it otherwise is absolutely absurd.
Both Sith Lords managed to create a powerful Sith Empire in there times, which is a big feat.
No... comparing Revan to Sidious is absurd given how much greater his accomplishments are than Revan's.
That moron was a war hero and was ambitious.
Means jack. Revan was much smarter and dealing with an overtly ambitious, reckless idiot.
I agree with this assessment.
Had no doubt.
I do not dispute this. And Revan's accomplishments are second to none but only Sidious.
Actually, Bane rivals Revan in terms of accomplishments. But both of them are lightyears behind Sidious. It's not close.
We've been over this before! Leland Chee said direct contradicts don't stand. EVERYTHING ELSe, NARRATIVe, INTERNAL THOUGHTS, ETC....fair ****ing game, approved by the big man himself.
I never said that the quote itself had no merit to it; he may very well be one of the strongest Jedi that has ever lived, but unless it’s consistently backed up with facts and Lucas gives a clear say on the matter, it cannot make your argument “strong.” To base your conclusion on what one quote states is flawed argumentation - wouldn't you think?
Gideon
I see your point that the quote is G-canon, but it is not supported by G canon facts from the movies; in this case, the narrative from the novelization is contradicting what Lucas believes are Yoda’s limitations and abilities. Why are you so predisposed towards this one quote?
And had trouble? BULL ****ING SHIT! Stop this little pro-KOTOR crusade you have and actually watch the movies, yoda had no issues catching a pod tossed at him by the most powerful Sith Lord ever.
Saying that I am on a “KOTOR crusade” really confounds me, especially when you yourself are predisposed to PT characters. I feel that there is much belligerency towards EU characters on KMC nowadays, the same type of dislike seen for PT characters a few months back. I am basing my argument and opinions on facts - feats that the likes of Kun, Revan, and Bane - have shown as being greater than Yoda‘s. Yoda didn't flick away the senate pod hurtling towards him with his left hand while leaping at Sidious with his lightsaber. He had to use both hands to stop it - which clearly took enough time - and it took him time to redirect it towards Sidious who was even wasting time laughing. Similarly, he had to drop his weapon and was showing strain when he was lifting the rubble thrown by Dooku at Obi Wan and Anakin. Hardly what I would imagine someone stronger than Revan to display.
I am by no means partial to KOTOR characters, in fact I admit that the likes of DE Sidious could take down Revan, perhaps commfortably. But DE Sidious has both quotes AND feats that consistently show him being stronger than Revan. With Yoda, it’s basically one quote, and the entire basis towards that quote being true is the assumption that Revan really was stronger as Jedi than he was as a Sith.
Which is utter bull shit, as he was trained at a young bullshit and his deeds, while unknown, are legendary
A young “bullshit”? Calm down dude. I doubt - in the grand scheme of things - that his feats in those times were truly “legendary” as he was born into a period of relative peace (by relative I mean compared to other periods of time in the SW mythos.) If you don’t mind, could you list a source.
Well, you know something? There are no 'weaknesses' shown, only what detractors try to use. He is not shown struggling against a single bit of TK he des. He simply catches what he catches and hurls them without anything that can be described as strain.
Lightsnake, there are certain things that he does struggle with - and it’s completely objective. It’s common sense; to deny it would be a clear sign of confirmation bias. If he were so comfortable with his telekinesis to the extent that he would be stronger than the likes of Exar Kun, Bane, or Revan, he should not have dropped his ****ing lightsaber when he was saving Kenobi and Anakin. He would have easily deflected a senate pod falling towards him.
So, you can THINK they displayed weakness, but the reality is different.
Yoda is more powerful than Revan. Fact
You are basing this off of one quote, which contradicts what Lucas believes are the limitations and strengths of Yoda? You‘ll pardon me if I retain a healthy amount of skepticism.
Sure. PoD DID retcon Bane of the sith, since many events in Bane of the Sith cannot happen since-Kaan can't appear since his soul is trapped on Ruusan...Qordis did not perish in the Thought Bomb. Bane did not try to convince Kaan of his folly, etc etc etc.
Since swtimeline is down right now, I’ll take a look at these minor details later. However I don’t recall anything said about Qordis dieing from the thought bomb, and even before PoD, it was known that Kaan died in the thought bomb.
What was fact however is that Bane went to Dxun, the moon was drifting away from Onderon, and he was on a flying beast. Since BoTS mentions that Bane had to nudge the moon in order to travel to Onderon - I see that as the most likely possibility. If you have proof from an official source that this was a contradiction I would appreciate seeing it, otherwise I really see no point in continuing this line of argument.
What's this 'context of the EU' crap? It's 'context in Star Wars', which, as according to G-canon, counts towards everything at the bottom.
Lucas mentions that his universe is set apart from the EU universe, and that the two are “disconnected.” Any quotes that are set in the period of “his” universe does not necessarily have to apply to conditions governing the EU.
"http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/starwars/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780345428837&view=qa"
Q: What were Mr. Lucas's line-edits like? Was he a tough editor?MS: Not tough so much as exceedingly detailed, though I suspect he would have been very tough indeed if I hadn't been quite so scrupulously faithful to the spirit of his story. I mean, he literally went over it word-by-word, even to the point of altering descriptives to adjust the characters' inflections.
LS, I’ve seen this before and addressed it in kind. This is Stover’s opinion of what Lucas thinks, and it is clearly not one hundred percent accurate. It’s clear that Stover took some liberties with respect to the rules set by the Big L, and Lucas obviously did not feel like correcting or reading every line - otherwise we would have such contradictions (Dooku fight, how Fisto died, the fight between Sids and Yoda) with some complete revisions.
And numerous EU feats,
His EU feats have never placed him above Revan. He‘s close, and powerful in his own right, but at best he is little stronger and at worse he is weaker. These facts representing Revan’s abilities have been listed before but to name a few would be matching a Sith Lord of Dooku’s caliber fueled by an entire race of competent force users, using force storms, earning the fear of a Sith Lord that has displayed greater telekinetic feats than Yoda, and coercing the wills of hundreds of Jedi fighting over Malachor 5.
Also considering that Revan learned the majority of his techniques through Malachor 5 - largely a forgotten body of knowledge that was destroyed, it’s reasonable to state that Yoda could not learn defenses to many of these attacks.
Why would Lucas leave a direct quote to Yoda as the most powerful Jedi ever on the book when he trimmed down a lot of other stuff he didn't want
Another question LS, is why would Lucas leave a fight scene with Dooku that was vastly different from the depictions in the movie? Why would he so dramatically change the Yoda versus Sidious, Sidious versus Mace, or Anakin versus Kenobi fight scenes?
This is all Stover’s opinion on what Lucas thinks. It’s obviously not true, since a comparison of the novelization and the movie shows it.
According to Malak, he is.
If you read my previous post, Malak didn’t even know all of the techniques Revan did (from Malachor 5, that is) which was stated in Chronicles. I don’t really feel you can trust his account of the matter, especially when he had no idea what he was talking about. People are basing there argument that Yoda is a stronger Jedi based on Malak's flawed opinion and one quote that is different from one what Lucas thinks of as Yoda's abilities and limitations. I am afraid I am at a loss for words.
Originally posted by zephiel7
Gideon
I see your point that the quote is G-canon, but it is not supported by G canon facts from the movies; in this case, the narrative from the novelization is contradicting what Lucas believes are Yoda’s limitations and abilities. Why are you so predisposed towards this one quote?Yoda did not flick the senate pod hurtling towards with his left hand while leaping at Sidious with his lightsaber. He had to use both hands to stop it - which clearly took enough time - and it took him time to redirect it towards Sidious who was even wasting time laughing. Similarly, he had to drop his weapon and was showing strain when he was lifting the rubble thrown by Dooku at Obi Wan and Anakin. Hardly what I would imagine someone stronger than Revan to display.
If he were so comfortable with his telekinesis to the extent that he would be stronger than the likes of Exar Kun, Bane, or Revan, he should [b]not
have dropped his ****ing lightsaber when he was saving Kenobi and Anakin. He would have easily deflected a senate pod falling towards him.[/B]
What?
What has Revan done in canon that would suggest that he's be able to toss senate pods against Sidious?
All his canon force feats can be summarized by:-
Killing a few Rakata with a force "Storm" of unidentifiable magnitude, beating Malak in a tough fight and resisting the effects of the dark side energies of Malachor. How do these feats translate to being on par with Yoda, especially as far as combat prowess is concerned?
So Yoda didn't push aside the senate pod with one hand, so what? You do realize that the one senate pod he 'held' with his TK, he spun and then hurled at Sidious?
Why does "putting away" his lightsaber matter? He obviously had to use two hands to make it easier to focus his TK at spinning the senate pod, or don't you understand the significance of hand gestures? The Jedi use hand gestures to help focus their force powers, but they (hand gestures) are not necessary - they just make concentration easier.
And until we see Bane or Kun hurl senate pods with any kind of 'ease' I'd refrain from making baseless comparisons.
Lets' also consider how easily he handles Dooku's force lightning, or how he was able to redirect a full barrage of force lightning from the most powerful Sith in history. Revan and Kun don't have these kinds of feats. And I'll like to see you make an argument as to how Revan could handle Yoda in a duel, especially in saber combat.
Seriously, Yoda has shown himself to be more powerful than Revan. First by his impressive ability to redirect dark side energy from Sith Lords like Tyranus and Sidious, and then by his outstanding combat prowess.
Originally posted by Allankles
What has Revan done in canon that would suggest that he's be able to toss senate pods against Sidious?
Originally posted by Allankles
All his canon force feats can be summarized by:-Killing a few Rakata with a force "Storm" of unidentifiable magnitude, beating Malak in a tough fight and resisting the effects of the dark side energies of Malachor. How do these feats translate to being on par with Yoda, especially as far as combat prowess is concerned?
A) He destroyed several scouting parties of Rakatans who were also accompanied by some Rancor beasts that were trained in the arts of warfare with a single Force attack.
B) He single-handedly destroyed an entire army of Star Forge Super-battle Droids during his fight on the Star Forge.
C) He defeated Mandalore – The Ultimate in a hand to hand combat.
D) He defeated Darth Malak on Star Forge, while Malak was powered-up by the Star Forge itself and also was replenishing his energies by draining the Jedi Captives to prolong his duel. It was one hell of a fight.
E) He killed Yusanis, who was the strongest Echani Warrior ever known and had never lost a single fight in his life.
F) He single-handedly killed two Terentatek beasts in the Tomb on Naga Sadow and that too very easily. And Terentatek beasts are dubbed as Jedi killers.
G) He also killed some other tough guys like Calo Nord, Uther Wynn and Darth Bandon.
H) He also defeated Sith Bastilla Shan at-least four times in a single fight on Star Forge when Bastilla was directly getting replenished and powered-up by the Star Forge itself.
I) He was declared as the “The Prodigal Knight” by Master Vandar himself in a ceremony after his spectacular performance on Star Forge, which was enough to turn the tide of the entire battle.
Originally posted by Allankles
Lets' also consider how easily he handles Dooku's force lightning, or how he was able to redirect a full barrage of force lightning from the most powerful Sith in history. Revan and Kun don't have these kinds of feats.
Originally posted by Allankles
And I'll like to see you make an argument as to how Revan could handle Yoda in a duel, especially in saber combat.
Originally posted by Allankles
Seriously, Yoda has shown himself to be more powerful than Revan. First by his impressive ability to redirect dark side energy from Sith Lords like Tyranus and Sidious, and then by his outstanding combat prowess.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan also has shown outstanding combat prowess, idiot! 🙄
And as far as his combat prowess, when has he ever been as impressive as Yoda? Unless your telling me Yoda's application of Ataru is not exceptionally unique to you?
Originally posted by Allankles
I know all of Revan's accomplishements you dim witted fanboy, I don't need a list from you. I was talking about his notable canon force feats. And what makes you assume that Revan would have a chance tossing Senate pods against Sidious?And as far as his combat prowess, when has he ever been as impressive as Yoda? Unless your telling me Yoda's application of Ataru is not exceptionally unique to you?
And if a Jedi is very strong in the Force, that Jedi can lift and toss around heavy objects with ease. It is a matter of common sense.
I asked a question regarding Revan's strength in the Force from Drew Karpyshyn - the author and creater of Revan character and he gave me this reply: "Yes. Like Yoda, he could have moved a small spaceship if he really concentrated."
And Revan was exceptional in Light Saber Combat as well.
Gideon
I see your point that the quote is G-canon, but it is not supported by G canon facts from the movies; in this case, the narrative from the novelization is contradicting what Lucas believes are Yoda’s limitations and abilities. Why are you so predisposed towards this one quote?
Zephiel, you are attempting to interpret Lucas's innermost thoughts on the matter, and that is absolutely - and thoroughly - ridiculous. If we go your route, all of the movie characters are slow as hell if we compare them to any EU Jedi or Sith. The movies depict them moving in fast paces during their duels, but not 'blurs' or anything that is remarkable.
Yet Leeland Chee has declared that the speeds depicted in the movies do not contradict those of the EU, meaning that Bane isn't faster than Yoda or vice versa. Lucas himself (according to Nai) has commented on the Clone Wars show commentary that the actions featured on the cartoons is how he'd imagine 'real Jedi' to be.
So, we have two sources indicating that the movies do not 'display' the best of the Jedi's capabilities, even though they are capable of them. Nai explained this quite perfectly: even now, certain techniques and processes are out of CGI and computer aid. The movies can't exactly show Yoda and Sidious dueling 'faster than the human eye can see', otherwise we'd have a blank screen.
Furthermore, Stover has said that everything told in the movies is because Lucas wanted it there. If the narrative declares Yoda 'the most powerful foe the darkness had ever known', it is so. Period. A G-canon source confirms it.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDAnd if a Jedi is very strong in the Force, that Jedi can lift and toss around heavy objects with ease. It is a matter of common sense.
I asked a question regarding Revan's strength in the Force from [b]Drew Karpyshyn
- the author and creater of Revan character and he gave me this reply: "Yes. Like Yoda, he could have moved a small spaceship if he really concentrated."And Revan was exceptional in Light Saber Combat as well. [/B]
Are you thick?
Drew K's comments unless backed up by an EU source of his own or otherwise, are worthless. He has no more weight on the matter than does any fan. So stop with these retarded statements about Drew K's comments, you only make yourself look more clueless.
Second, I don't care if Revan is an exceptional duelist or not, he's never been shown to be a match for Yoda in dueling. I'll write it again, Yoda is uniquely exceptional in dueling. Sidious was stretched to his limits just trying to keep Yoda at bay.
You clearly don't comprehend the extent of Yoda's combat abilities.
Originally posted by Allankles
Are you thick?
Originally posted by Allankles
Drew K's comments unless backed up by an EU source of his own or otherwise, are worthless. He has no more weight on the matter than does any fan. So stop with these retarded statements about Drew K's comments, you only make yourself look more clueless.
Drew is an expert on the subject of Revan. Whatever he says, it gets accepted so get this thing in your thick skull.
Originally posted by Allankles
Second, I don't care if Revan is an exceptional duelist or not, he's never been shown to be a match for Yoda in dueling. I'll write it again, Yoda is uniquely exceptional in dueling. Sidious was stretched to his limits just trying to keep Yoda at bay.You clearly don't comprehend the extent of Yoda's combat abilities.
Revan single-handedly killed two Terentatek beasts easily in a single fight. What does this feat tells you?
Also Revan was declared to be “The Prodigal Knight” by a famous Jedi Master of his age. Now why was he declared to be such?
Better answer these questions next time.
Also, Sidious was laughing while dueling with Yoda. Can you tell me the reason for his laughs?
Originally posted by Gideon
No, actually. The only person whose opinion is unanimously accepted as fact is George Lucas's. Drew could say: "Revan is more powerful than anyone, ever" and it would neither be accepted nor true.
And Drew does not makes silly claims. He knows his limits very well and infact all other Star Wars Authors also do.
And Drew is an expert on the subject of Revan. His views regarding Revan do hold some water.
I know that GL is the highest level of authority in Star Wars. But opinions of other Star Wars Authors are also given high importance.
That is irrelevant. You said that 'whatever he [Drew] says gets accepted'. I am simply informing you that this is not the case. If it is, Kevin J. Anderson's opinion that we'd have to see Kun and Sidious fight if we wanted to learn who the most powerful Sith ever is would be absolute canon. Yet it isn't. At most, his opinion can only be used to 'support'. It isn't the end all be end all.
So, no. Whatever Drew says is not accepted. Only Lucas [to a lesser extent, Leeland Chee] gets that distinction.
And Drew does not makes silly claims. He knows his limits very well and infact all other Star Wars Authors also do.
This is also irrelevant. You said that 'whatever Drew says gets accepted'. This is not the case.
Originally posted by Gideon
That is irrelevant. You said that 'whatever he [Drew] says gets accepted'. I am simply informing you that this is not the case. If it is, Kevin J. Anderson's opinion that we'd have to see Kun and Sidious fight if we wanted to learn who the most powerful Sith ever is would be absolute canon. Yet it isn't. At most, his opinion can only be used to 'support'. It isn't the end all be end all.So, no. Whatever Drew says is not accepted. Only Lucas [to a lesser extent, Leeland Chee] gets that distinction.
This is also irrelevant. You said that 'whatever Drew says gets accepted'. This is not the case.
Whatever Drew will say regarding Revan will get accepted, if he wants it to get accepted. And Drew does not makes tall claims about Revan. He will never try to contradict GL in any case.
Oh man! you are taking things out of context here!
Merely putting it into perspective for you.
Whatever Drew will say regarding Revan will get accepted, if he wants it to get accepted.
No. While I recognize that Drew is a source to be had on Revan, it doesn't mean that anything and everything that he says about Revan is fact. Period.
And Drew does not makes tall claims about Revan. He will never try to contradict GL in any case.
You said that 'whatever' he says about Revan is accepted. It isn't.
Originally posted by Gideon
No. While I recognize that Drew is a source to be had on Revan, it doesn't mean that anything and everything that he says about Revan is fact. Period.
Originally posted by Gideon
You said that 'whatever' he says about Revan is accepted. It isn't.
S_W_LeGenD, do you know what the definition of prodigal is?
And you're really pumping up Revans feats here, like saying he easily beat the Terentakek beasts, you'll have to back that one up. Or that he "single handedly" fought through that army, when I seem to remember him having two allies with him through those fights.
And out of curiosity, where does it say that he beat Mandalore in hand to hand combat, I've heard others say this, but I don't remember ever hearing this said.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
LOL! Now a Star Wars author is actually equal to a normal Star Wars Fan? You are surely ignorant.Drew is an expert on the subject of Revan. Whatever he says, it gets accepted so get this thing in your thick skull.
Thicker than a box of rocks.
Let me put it to you in a way that you'll understand. You see, Revan is a fictional character who only exists in the pages of EU works. If no official licensed EU source comments on Revan's abilities, then those abilities simply don't exist.
Now, I'm not arguing about Revan's TK (it's a basic ability he should have) but I'm not going to assume that he could toss senate pods with Sidious. I'm also not going to take Drew K's comments into consideration unless he gets licence to make an EU source book or story on those abilities.
It's that simple, if you weren't so thick I wouldn't have to repeat myself. Comments by an author out of universe are no more valuable than any other fanboys comments, they share the same problem, they're both unlicensed.
Lastly, you clearly don't appreciate Yoda's combat abilities. Yoda's combat capabilities exceed anything Revan has been shown to possess.