ultimatethor
Senior Member
Originally posted by fangirl101
Um, I gave examples of people who were above Juggernaut and probably at cyttorak level. you chose to ignore those examples.
Once more ur not understanding me. The examples you gave were of people in the DCU who her lasso has been able to subdue yes( doubt if any are on Cytooraks level though). HOWEVER the problem here is that the evn if there is anyone on Cyttoraks level there the lasso was able to subdue them because in THAT UNIVERSE the enchantment based on universal truth supercedes their power. Universal truth therefore carries MORE authority than they do and hence an enchantment bound by it will be superior to them. IN MARVEL though there is NO SUCH CONCEPT. Cyttorak is a god of physical power and hence he has a degree of authority over that area. He is the source of the enchantments that physically altered cain marko. Now would his power be superceded by an enchantment based on a concept that DOES NOT EXIST in his UNIVERSE? Does wonderwomans enchantment suddenly NEGATE the Cyttoraks authority? It can be related to thor and Captain marvel. Thor is the god of thunder and he has shown that he can exercise his control over evn high level beings like ego the living planet. Howeevr does thors authority as god of thunder neccessarily mean that he has the ability to negate captain marvels magic lightning?
We dont know because captain marvel lightning comes from an enchantment from a being in an entirely different universe whose authority cannot be relaated to thors.
It is also similar to speedforce Power cosmic debate. The speed force is the supreme force that controls kinetic enrgy in the DCU. It is where flash gets his abilities to steal speed from. Now just because it is in the DCU does not mean that in a forum fight flash cant steal speed from Marvel characters. Flash can certainly speed from MOST Marvel Charcters. The problem comes when he tries to steal speed from Marvel characters whose speed is granted and controlled by a specific force or authority within the MU. Lets take the silver surfer. He gets ALL his bodily enrgies( including kinetic enrgy) from the power cosmic. Now the PC is made up of the ambient enrgies that sustain the Universe. The silver surfer therefore can replenish his bodily enrgies by absorbing cosmic rays from anywhere in the cosmos. The Flash howver can control kinetic enrgy and so the argument could be made that because the flash can manipulate the speedforce, he should be able to control silver surfers kinetic enrgy afterall he HAS done it against greater beings. A counter argument can then be made for the silver surfer that although the flash can control KE, all of SS bodily enrgies come from the Power cosmic and it has granted him a degree of control over them. We are then faced with the question of the power cosmic vs the speedforce. Note that arguments such as the flash has stolen speed from beings greater than SS fails here because although those beings may b more powerful than SS, they still fall under the authority of the speedforce when it comes to KE as it is supreme in that department in the DCU. The flash who manipulates the speed force can therefore exert its authority in that area. The Power cosmic however DOES NOT fall under the authority of the speed force as its in a different universe and hence we cannot determine where in terms of authority over the silver surfers KE the speedforce would place compared to it if they were in the same universe. Note once again that arguments that say that the silver surfer has had his enrgy absorbed before fail also because those that have absorbed his enrgy have been those who in comparison to him have exercised greater authority or control over his enrgy than he himself did with his Power cosmic. These people however are in the same universe as he is and therefore such a comparison was made possible. Therefore in order for the surfers speed to be stolen we would have to determine whether or not the speedforce would grant flash control over the KE of another being whose KE is regulated and controlled by another force not under the authority of the speedforce.
Now it should also be noted that although thor is similar to the surfer in the sense that his bodily enrgies are granted and regulated by a specific source which is the Odinforce, his speed can be stolen because he DOES NOT have control over his bodily enrgies like the surfer does. Hence the reason classic thor CANNOT augment specific attributes of himself at will like the surfer can. However people with higher levels of Odin force control like Odin and kingthor can do this and hence have similar control to the silver surfer.
To cut the EXTREMELY long story short, due to the fact that both wondy and jugs enchantments are based on distinct authorities in different universes, we simply cannot ascertain which takes precedence due to the fact that the battle takes place in a neutral world.