Originally posted by inimalist
you are missing the whole point of language alf
No im not and again I think its disrespectful not to respond to my post. The earliest defintions of the word relgion were not specifically to have anything to do with religon AND the modern defintion of the word religon can apply to atheism.
So the earliest example of the word religon isnt about sprituality specifically AND the modern dictionary says that religon can apply to everything you are committed to. So i'll just agree with you then, you tell me what im supposed to do?
These earler words were used to describe acts which you would do when something is important, since religon is very important they evolved into meaning the word religon. It common sense. I dont see anything there to do with being lazy or sleeping I see words that are related to commitment and hardwork which religon is about, so its not hard to see the connection.
Despite all this evidence atheism cant be a religion. 🤨
Originally posted by Alfheim
No im not and again I think its disrespectful not to respond to my post. The earliest defintions of the word relgion were not specifically to have anything to do with religon AND the modern defintion of the word religon can apply to atheism.So the earliest example of the word religon isnt about sprituality specifically AND the modern dictionary says that religon can apply to everything you are committed to. So i'll just agree with you then, you tell me what im supposed to do?
These earler words were used to describe acts which you would do when something is important, since religon is very important they evolved into meaning the word religon. It common sense. I dont see anything there to do with being lazy or sleeping I see words that are related to commitment and hardwork which religon is about, so its not hard to see the connection.
Despite all this evidence atheism cant be a religion. 🤨
There is no real use or need to argue this with you. Any word can be manipulated to have pretty much any definition. It is why language is subjective. The fact that ancient people might have referred to anything by anything in another language is pretty meaningless with regard to what words mean today in their usage.
The word "religion" refers to very specific types of beliefs and behaviours, markedly different from those such as "political party" or "cult" for identifiable reasons. The reasons we have a word to describe these particular things as a "religion" is because by identifying them as such, we are conveying meaning about something in reality using a symbol that elicits various similar subjective experiences in each of us.
All of a sudden, if "religion" were interchangeable with "political party" or "cult" or especially "no religion", there is no longer any information being passed on.
Now, stop talking about the meaning of the word. Start explaining how what I as a naturalist and my friend who is a post-modernist, who have almost diametrically opposed views on reality, belong to the same religion. Don't use linguistic babble, I know how easy it is to mix words.
Originally posted by inimalist
There is no real use or need to argue this with you. Any word can be manipulated to have pretty much any definition. It is why language is subjective. The fact that ancient people might have referred to anything by anything in another language is pretty meaningless with regard to what words mean today in their usage.
Thats one of my points!! The earliest example of the word religon didnt have anything to do with spirituality specifically AND the modern definition of the word religon doesnt neccesarily have to be about anything spirtual either.
Originally posted by inimalist
The word "religion" refers to very specific types of beliefs and behaviours, markedly different from those such as "political party" or "cult" for identifiable reasons. The reasons we have a word to describe these particular things as a "religion" is because by identifying them as such, we are conveying meaning about something in reality using a symbol that elicits various similar subjective experiences in each of us.All of a sudden, if "religion" were interchangeable with "political party" or "cult" or especially "no religion", there is no longer any information being passed on.
Now, stop talking about the meaning of the word. Start explaining how what I as a naturalist and my friend who is a post-modernist, who have almost diametrically opposed views on reality, belong to the same religion. Don't use linguistic babble, I know how easy it is to mix words.
The hell I am. Why is it the dictionary says otherwise????
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion
6.something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
So let me get this straight right....the dictionary says otherwise and im just supposed to agree with you? Please tell me what the **** you want me to do? The dictionary says otherwise but im just supposed to agree with you? Basically im fed up.
Im not mixing up anyhting. Its got it there right bang smack in the middle of the dictionary. If it wasnt there I wouldnt bring it up.
Furthermore if you use common sense you can see why religon has evolved to the meaning it has today becaue the orginal meaning of the word had meaning to do with commitment for example to place an obligation on.
For the love of god even the encyclopaedia britannica does the samething.
http://www.britannica.com/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=religion&query=religion
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices... and if I dont point this out you will probably miss it its says OR, so its either a personal set or instituionalized system
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 :a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjective
Now why should I listen to you?
Originally posted by inimalist
Now, stop talking about the meaning of the word. Start explaining how what I as a naturalist and my friend who is a post-modernist, who have almost diametrically opposed views on reality, belong to the same religion. Don't use linguistic babble, I know how easy it is to mix words.
I'll stop talking about the meaning because then you would have a case. Im not explaing anything because its too much effort. If the dictionary and the encylopadeia contradict what your telling me then why should I listen to you?
Furthermore you dont answer my questions!
Originally posted by inimalist
e individual."atheism" does not work this way, neither does "theism". Both are doctrines, however, neither of them are belief systems.
Originally posted by AlfheimWhat the difference between a beleif system and a doctrine?
Im not explaining anything. You want me to agree with you for the sake of it and you dont respond to my questions. If I thought it would be worth my while and give it a shot but quite frankly im fed up:
1. b*tch about me using wiki
2. b*itch about me using the dictionary. I was told that meaning of words change so I need to go back to the orginal meaning.
3 I go back to the orginal meaning and then im told that I should use the modern meaning instead.
4. I go back to the modern meaning and people are still moaning.
I am fed up basically you wont be happy until I just agree with you. Hell I even changed my mind about the meaning of atheism. Im bending over backwards and all im getting is arrogance.
Stop mixing up words = Just agree with me, ok?
ok, whats your point again? atheism is a religion?
sure, lets use your definitions. Prove the following
atheism is:
1
-something one believes in and follows devotedly
AND
-a point or matter of ethics or conscience
2
-a personal set of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
OR
- a institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
- a cause held to with ardor and faith
OR
- a principle held to with ardor and faith
OR
- a system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
again you didn't address the points on linguistics or memes, so I am assuming you concede them.
Originally posted by Alfheim
No im not and again I think its disrespectful not to respond to my post.
Originally posted by ThePittman
For both evangelical and religion both, look at the varying sources and 99% of them all refer to a spiritual belief. This is the common meaning of the word.You are also getting me confused with others, I don’t have a problem using wiki or dictionaries, however they are not the end all of the word but just the common definitions of the word. Yes by the very root of the word you could call Atheism a religion but only because the root of the word only means a group of people with a common view, but why would you call it a religion when 99% or the world uses it to refer to a spiritual belief? I could go around calling Christians cultist, it is an accurate term with the meaning of the word, yes but why would I do that but to inflame them.
Originally posted by inimalistagain you didn't address the points on linguistics or memes, so I am assuming you concede them.
Yeah I did I said the afterlife. You didnt agree. Isnt that what I said? I think I adressed the point on lingutics as well, you probably didnt see it. To be sure what exactly did you say.
Originally posted by ThePittman
When did I not respond to your post?
As for the word religion if you look at various sources its not that 99 percent of them dont refer to a spiritual belief, most of them do refer to a spiritual belief but theres still alot that dont.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. Its says esp but that means it does not have to apply to a superhuman agency.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
—Idiom
Hell 2 could come under that but im trying to be fair
American Heritage Dictionary
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
# The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
# A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
# A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
[B]WordNet
1. a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"
2. an institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"
Ok nothing here.
Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version)
religion1 [rəˈlidʒən] noun
a belief in, or the worship of, a god or gods
religion2 [rəˈlidʒən] noun
a particular system of belief OR worship
Example: Christianity and Islam are two different religions.
Explicit atheism could posibly come under that
Encyclopaedia Brittanica
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices... and if I dont point this out you will probably miss it its says OR, so its either a personal set or instituionalized system
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 :a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjective
Does that look like 99 percent to you. I tell you what shall we ignore all the ones that do not refer to sprituality just to please you?
Furthermore the orignal meaning of the word was not about religon. It was your idea to look up the orginal meaning of the word.
So....the first example of the word religon did not refer to anything spiritual AND if you look at various modern sources religon can apply to anything you are commited to. Yeah most of them do refer to spritual but there are still a significant number that dont therefore they should be counted. So if there are more white people living in london black people dont count because there are less of them?
Originally posted by AlfheimIn your example you listed only 5 resources and in the Google reference over 20 different references from colleges to public sites and the most common modern meaning of the word refer to a supernatural belief. Even in your post only about 28% of them doesn’t refer to a supernatural belief, I don’t think that there is any question that the vast majority of the world when the word religion is spoken means that it is a belief in the supernatural. As I have asked what is the reason that you want to classify Atheism as a religion, the only way that would apply is by the very basic root of the word which basically means a group of people with the same belief.
Yeah I did I said the afterlife. You didnt agree. Isnt that what I said? I think I adressed the point on lingutics as well, you probably didnt see it. To be sure what exactly did you say.When did I not respond to your post?
As for the word religion if you look at various sources its not that 99 percent of them dont refer to a spiritual belief, most of them do refer to a spiritual belief but theres still alot that dont.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/religion
1. [B]a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
Its says esp but that means it does not have to apply to a superhuman agency.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.
—IdiomHell 2 could come under that but im trying to be fair
American Heritage Dictionary
1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.# The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
# A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
# A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.[B]WordNet
1. a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"
2. an institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"Ok nothing here.
Kernerman English Multilingual Dictionary (Beta Version)
religion1 [rəˈlidʒən] noun
a belief in, or the worship of, a god or godsreligion2 [rəˈlidʒən] noun
a particular system of belief OR worship
Example: Christianity and Islam are two different religions.Explicit atheism could posibly come under that
Encyclopaedia Brittanica
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices... and if I dont point this out you will probably miss it its says OR, so its either a personal set or instituionalized system
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 :a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjectiveDoes that look like 99 percent to you. I tell you what shall we ignore all the ones that do not refer to sprituality just to please you?
Furthermore the orignal meaning of the word was not about religon. It was your idea to look up the orginal meaning of the word.
So....the first example of the word religon did not refer to anything spiritual AND if you look at various modern sources religon can apply to anything you are commited to. Yeah most of them do refer to spritual but there are still a significant number that dont therefore they should be counted. So if there are more white people living in london black people dont count because there are less of them? [/B]
Originally posted by ThePittman
In your example you listed only 5 resources and in the Google reference over 20 different references from colleges to public sites
What so you want me to go through all 20 of them? I just went through the ones I knew.
Originally posted by ThePittman
and the most common modern meaning of the word refer to a supernatural belief. Even in your post only about 28% of them doesn’t refer to a supernatural belief,
So we ignore the 28 percent? Do you think maybe eventhough its a minority it was put there for a purpose? So we ignore things if they are in a minority?
Originally posted by ThePittman
I don’t think that there is any question that the vast majority of the world when the word religion is spoken means that it is a belief in the supernatural.
Yeah so what? At the end of the day its still in the dictionary and they put it there for a purpose. Yeah and alot of people think that Buddhism is an athiestic religion according to you that would be incorrcet regarless of how many people say it because its not the orginal meaning of the word.
Originally posted by ThePittman
As I have asked what is the reason that you want to classify Atheism as a religion, the only way that would apply is by the very basic root of the word which basically means a group of people with the same belief.
Im saying that atheism can be classified as a religon but it depends. This in my opinion does not apply to implicit atheism but can apply to explicit atheism.
It could not be applied just by the root meaning, in the modern sense as well athiesm could be a religon......again dictionary.
The reason why im doing it is because its common sense. Orginally the meaning of the word religon applied to things that you were committed to eg to place an obligation on, therefore its no wonder today that one of the meaning for the word religion can apply to athiesm. Hope this answers your question.
Heres another one
http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/r/r0140600.html
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
Cambridge dictionary
1 [C or U] the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship:
the Christian religion
Nothing here
Encarta
1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life
2. system: an institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
4. obsession: an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is completely devoted to or obsessed by
The danger is that you start to make fitness a religion.
5. christianity monk's or nun's life: life as a monk or a nun, especially in the Roman Catholic Church
Merriam Webster
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjective
Wordsymth
1. a set of beliefs concerned with explaining the origins and purposes of the universe, usu. involving belief in a supernatural creator and offering guidance in ethics and morals.
Synonyms persuasion (3) , faith (5) , church (6) , theology (2)
Definition 2. any of several institutions with their own beliefs, rituals, and teachings.
Example the Christian religion ; the religion of Islam.
Synonyms faith (5) , church (5)
Crossref. Syn. church
Definition 3. the observance of religious beliefs.
Synonyms orthodoxy (2) , faithfulness {faithful (2)} , devotions (3)
Definition 4. single-minded devotion to or zealous conviction regarding anything.
American Heritage Dictionary
1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
Hey thats all I can be bothered to do. Satisfied?
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You do see that for all of those the definitions you're using are the last one? Every single time.
Nah really!!!!!! Yes I do know that but at the end of the day its still an accepted meaning thats why they put it in there. Its there for a purpose.
Furthermore if you had bothered to read the previous posts the orginal meaning of the word was not specifically about religion either.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Actually they put it at the end because it's the loosest or least used definition.
Yeah but at the end of the day its still in there and eventhough its less used it is still a correct defintion otherwise they would not have put it that., also there not always at the bottom in some sources they are at number 2 or 1.
If it wasnt even there at all then you could complain.
Furthermore the original meaning of the word did not apply specifically to sprituality.
Fail.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Heres another onehttp://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/r/r0140600.html
n.
1.
a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4.[B] A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.Cambridge dictionary
1 [C or U] the belief in and worship of a god or gods, or any such system of belief and worship:
the Christian religionNothing here
Encarta
1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life
2. system: an institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
4. obsession: an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is completely devoted to or obsessed by
The danger is that you start to make fitness a religion.5. christianity monk's or nun's life: life as a monk or a nun, especially in the Roman Catholic Church
Merriam Webster
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjectiveWordsymth
1. a set of beliefs concerned with explaining the origins and purposes of the universe, usu. involving belief in a supernatural creator and offering guidance in ethics and morals.
Synonyms persuasion (3) , faith (5) , church (6) , theology (2)
Definition 2. any of several institutions with their own beliefs, rituals, and teachings.
Example the Christian religion ; the religion of Islam.
Synonyms faith (5) , church (5)
Crossref. Syn. church
Definition 3. the observance of religious beliefs.
Synonyms orthodoxy (2) , faithfulness {faithful (2)} , devotions (3)
Definition 4. single-minded devotion to or zealous conviction regarding anything.American Heritage Dictionary
1a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
Hey thats all I can be bothered to do. Satisfied? [/B]
Athiesm is a non-belief. A non-belief is not an activity, attitude, belief, cause, object, practice, principle, or value.