Karate Kid (Pre - Crisis) vs. Champion

Originally posted by MRasheed
Your idea of "best showing" differs wildly from my own, Jebus.

His best showing was when he arrived on earth and challenged earth's heroes to a boxing match. He was skilled in our own MA and crushed opponant after opponant, calmly, intelligently, efficiently.

In the fight with Thanos, Starlin had him acting like a mindless brute who used his sized to overwhelm opponants, fought emotionally and abandoned any idea of skill-in-technique.

So when you say "best showing" you are obviously talking about Thanos (Jim Starlin's own creation! 😖) not the Champion.

When he fought Thanos, he showed more duribility than he ever has, shown better powers, shown more strength.
Plus, at the start of the battle, he was calm, and he said he was going to take it slow and easy.
He wasn't portrayed wrong at all.

However, after repeated efforts, in which he couldn't hit him, he started to get really pissed, and tried to pull out all the stops.

Also, that's one of Thanos's lowest showings possible... 😐 strength, and power wise at least...

Originally posted by Jebus reborn

When he fought Thing, he got his ribs smashed, he couldn't put him down for quite a while, and he got hit a lot from Thing.
Certainly not the best feats.

Modeled after the first Rocky movie, that battle was specifically written to showcase the Thing's "heart" and to show him as a true hero. His own fighting skills (he learned how to box in the military) served him well over the years as the acting muscle of the Fantastic Four. The Champion deliberately limited himself to the rules of boxing in which, even a highly-skilled defensive fighter (like Muhammad Ali or Winky Wright) can't keep another skilled fighter from tagging the body and slamming into the ribs. The fight was a good showing by both men; especially if you subscribe to the Rocky mythos.

When he fought Thanos, he showed more duribility than he ever has, shown better powers, shown more strength.
Plus, at the start of the battle, he was calm, and he said he was going to take it slow and easy.
He wasn't portrayed wrong at all.

However, after repeated efforts, in which he couldn't hit him, he started to get really pissed, and tried to pull out all the stops.

The feats of strength performed by Champion that Starlin showed were specifically linked to the wearing of the Power Gem, if you will notice in the narrative. The ONLY powers Champion showed were those of raw physical prowess, and since we already knew that Champion was 10 feet tall, 5000lbs of muscle with Class 100 stregth even before the Thanos Quest, it was really ridiculous for Starlin to claim that Champion's throwing a tank or weakening a force field was unusual for him. Jim Starlin was obviously weakening the other characters in an effort to show how much his own character was a bad @ss. This is a trait of poor writing skill. From the very beginning when Thanos showed up, Champion literally did nothing but swing wildly (not even showing basic boxing knowledge!) rush head long after his opponant like a skillless brawler-type (which he continued to do even after he said he was going to take it "slow and easy"🙄 ), telegraph blows like an amateur, and all in all, act for all the world as if the one writing him literally didn't know a thing about ANY KIND of fighting art.

The battle was far from the good showing of Champion you claim, but instead was both an embarrassment to the character and the skills of the writer as well.

Originally posted by MRasheed
Modeled after the first Rocky movie, that battle was specifically written to showcase the Thing's "heart" and to show him as a true hero. His own fighting skills (he learned how to box in the military) served him well over the years as the acting muscle of the Fantastic Four. The Champion deliberately limited himself to the rules of boxing in which, even a highly-skilled defensive fighter (like Muhammad Ali or Winky Wright) can't keep another skilled fighter from tagging the body and slamming into the ribs. The fight was a good showing by both men; especially if you subscribe to the Rocky mythos.

The feats of strength performed by Champion that Starlin showed were specifically linked to the wearing of the Power Gem, if you will notice in the narrative. The ONLY powers Champion showed were those of raw physical prowess, and since we already knew that Champion was 10 feet tall, 5000lbs of muscle with Class 100 stregth even before the Thanos Quest, it was really ridiculous for Starlin to claim that Champion's throwing a tank or weakening a force field was unusual for him. Jim Starlin was obviously weakening the other characters in an effort to show how much his own character was a bad @ss. This is a trait of poor writing skill. From the very beginning when Thanos showed up, Champion literally did nothing but swing wildly (not even showing basic boxing knowledge!) rush head long after his opponant like a skillless brawler-type (which he continued to do even after he said he was going to take it "slow and easy"🙄 ), telegraph blows like an amateur, and all in all, act for all the world as if the one writing him literally didn't know a thing about [B]ANY KIND of fighting art.

The battle was far from the good showing of Champion you claim, but instead was both an embarrassment to the character and the skills of the writer as well. [/B]

Originally posted by Juntai
Do you think some writer intention may have been lost in artistic translation, to result in what you described?

I have to agree here , it's rather difficult to 'not' telegraph moves in a comic. Considering were the only ones reading it.

Well, in this case Starlin actually had Thanos say that Champion telegraphs his moves. While he was saying it he had Champion running around like a bull in a china shop (decidedly UN-martial artist like).

The writer's intention was to have Thanos be perceived as the better fighter. He executed this by taking away Champion's aeons of developed skill. In other words he shortchanged the character and cheated his fans. Of course if you don't like Champion and aren't interested in story integrity and continuity consistency then you won't care. But I came away from the Thanos Quest (that I'd been looking forward to for months) with a great loss of respect for the legendary Jim Starlin's writing ability.

It's not difficult to show a fighting comic character actually knowing what he's doing. Frank Miller has brillant martial art fight scenes and makes a point to not take anything from either character. Didn't he manage to impress in our minds how awesome his own character Elektra was, and yet still have her lose against Bullseye? In Miller's story, Elektra still came across as a bad @ss but he wrote Bullseye as simply better.

Jim Starlin obviously lacks that ability. What he managed to do is make the fans lose all respect for Champion and I lost all respect for his storytelling. A real writer, like Frank Miller, would've had Thanos engage Champion in battle WITHOUT compromising Champion's expertise in H2H and established skill level.

Originally posted by MRasheed
Modeled after the first Rocky movie, that battle was specifically written to showcase the Thing's "heart" and to show him as a true hero. His own fighting skills (he learned how to box in the military) served him well over the years as the acting muscle of the Fantastic Four. The Champion deliberately limited himself to the rules of boxing in which, even a highly-skilled defensive fighter (like Muhammad Ali or Winky Wright) can't keep another skilled fighter from tagging the body and slamming into the ribs. The fight was a good showing by both men; especially if you subscribe to the Rocky mythos.

The feats of strength performed by Champion that Starlin showed were specifically linked to the wearing of the Power Gem, if you will notice in the narrative. The ONLY powers Champion showed were those of raw physical prowess, and since we already knew that Champion was 10 feet tall, 5000lbs of muscle with Class 100 stregth even before the Thanos Quest, it was really ridiculous for Starlin to claim that Champion's throwing a tank or weakening a force field was unusual for him. Jim Starlin was obviously weakening the other characters in an effort to show how much his own character was a bad @ss. This is a trait of poor writing skill. From the very beginning when Thanos showed up, Champion literally did nothing but swing wildly (not even showing basic boxing knowledge!) rush head long after his opponant like a skillless brawler-type (which he continued to do even after he said he was going to take it "slow and easy"🙄 ), telegraph blows like an amateur, and all in all, act for all the world as if the one writing him literally didn't know a thing about [B]ANY KIND of fighting art.

The battle was far from the good showing of Champion you claim, but instead was both an embarrassment to the character and the skills of the writer as well. [/B]

Skill is skill, no matter the sport. Considering he should be millions of times a better fighter than She-Hulk in any h2h sport, going by pure hype.

Surfer:

You'd figure a being of supposed above Thanos in h2h status, would have destroyed Surfer...
Or would have avoided getting into a lock with Surfer's h2h skills.

Drax:

Do I even need to comment on that one?

Champion tried to hit Thanos, using any thing available. He wasn't able to. He was going to take it slow and easy, and that didn't work. He could telegraph moves light years ahead, and he still got punked.

The only embaressment to the character, is how he gets so massively overated, by basically no feats. What feats does he even have to go against the Thanos thing?
The best feat of h2h I can think of, is him putting Mantis in a full nelson, and that was mostly due to strength.

You have GOT to be kidding.

*sigh*

The She-Hulk fight was obviously comedy, with her doing her very best Squirrel Girl impression. And what was the reason why she was so bulked up when she came out of her robe? Whatever. In any event, the fight was only being played for laughs at Champion's expense. It was a literal joke.

I don't even understand your point in showing the Surfer fight; Radd didn't get a single blow in. The only thing I didn't like was that despite the fact that Champion was winning, he was still performing like a d@mn brawler. Unworthy of him.

The Drax encounter was again played for laughs, but at least it made sense in this context: When Drax the Destroyer is wielding the Power Gem he literally has unlimited strength. Even though the scene was set up for laughs, the point of it was to express that Drax is invincible when he has that particular Infinity Gem. The problem here is that since Starlin's collossal blunder in the Thanos vs Champion fight, every writer is writing Champion like a no-skills brawling chump. This was the whole point of my posts above, that Champion is the most unfairly abused character in comics. And I blame Jim Starlin for starting it.

Your post did not negate my argument, it only shined the spotlight on the very problem.

Originally posted by MRasheed
You have [b]GOT to be kidding.

*sigh*

The She-Hulk fight was obviously comedy, with her doing her very best Squirrel Girl impression. And what was the reason why she was so bulked up when she came out of her robe? Whatever. In any event, the fight was only being played for laughs at Champion's expense. It was a literal joke.

I don't even understand your point in showing the Surfer fight; Radd didn't get a single blow in. The only thing I didn't like was that despite the fact that Champion was winning, he was still performing like a d@mn brawler. Unworthy of him.

The Drax encounter was again played for laughs, but at least it made sense in this context: When Drax the Destroyer is wielding the Power Gem he literally has unlimited strength. Even though the scene was set up for laughs, the point of it was to express that Drax is invincible when he has that particular Infinity Gem. The problem here is that since Starlin's collossal blunder in the Thanos vs Champion fight, every writer is writing Champion like a no-skills brawling chump. This was the whole point of my posts above, that Champion is the most unfairly abused character in comics. And I blame Jim Starlin for starting it.

Your post did not negate my argument, it only shined the spotlight on the very problem. [/B]

My point was that, even though Champ is supposedly the best fighter in the universe, he can't even use these skills to take down Surfer. He did absolutely nothing in reguards to making him the top fighter ever, like his usual portrayings, and that feat was no different.
Hell Surfer even matched him in strength there, until Nova distracted him.
Hmm... I wonder why almost all of Champ's fights have him fighting like a brawler, rather than the cosmic Bruce Lee, he's played out to be...
That must just be pis though...

Except, Drax has not proven to have all this strength while he's had this Gem, but meh.
Champ tried to attack Drax, and got put out instead.

I seem to remember a certain Surfer fight, that happened before IQ, in which, Champ was also portrayed out to be a brawler, that also shot energy blasts...
He didn't do a good job there either, since he also got beat.

Plus, since you want to keep talking about this, then when exactly has Champion been so awesome of a fighter that he actually deserves to be talked about?

I didn't try to negate your arguement, because there was nothing to negate. I was planning on posting a long winded arguement, but thought better, since I realized that the whole arguement was based on hype, and likeness, rather than feats.
Not to mention hating a writer, because he did nothing really wrong.

Now, I have my issues with Starlin too, but not because he wrote a nobody, losing to a somebody.

...I realized that the whole arguement was based on hype, and likeness, rather than feats.
Not to mention hating a writer, because he did nothing really wrong.

I don't 'hate' him. There's no need for all of that. But I do recognize him as being the most overrated of comic book writers...

The whole argument is not based on hype. That's a ridiculous statement that would only be true if these characters were actually real. Then it would sound like you were talking about Ken Shamrock (someone who has zero skill but hyped as 'the most dangerous man alive'😉.

The argument is that the character's bio was established when he first showed up. HE NEEDED TO BE the greatest, most skilled fighter in the universe in order for that story of the Thing's "heart" to even work. But here Jim Starlin came along and threw out all of Champion's creator's bio in order to hype up his own character Thanos, and turned the Champion into a bumbling fool made even more foolish because he's been studying martial arts since the beginning of this universe. Now evry new writer who thinks like you because Starlin's Thanos Quest is now imprinted on their minds comes along and writes stupid @ss stories (like the She-Hulk one you posted) that continues the tradition started by Starlin, who is no more worthy of emulation than Rob Liefield.

All Jim Starlin that has accomplished here is ruin Champion's original story. If any Tom, D!ck or She-Hulk can work out a few weeks at Bally's Total Fitness and defeat the Champion of the Universe what does that do to the Thing's victory? It's like having a Jim Starlin inspired writer write the next Rocky movie and he makes Laila Ali knock out Apollo Creed and Clubber Lang with one punch. What would that say about Rocky?

Since you are tired of talking about it with me then I'm done. I'm sorry you completely fail to understand the point I'm making, but that only means you are a Fan and not a Creator.

Peace.

So let me get this straight... we're supposed to go on Champions original concept instead of how he's been portrayed in nearly every appearance since then? I see what you're saying, but still, there are FAR too many showings of him being a chump to ignore. We can't be that selective when debating these things.

Originally posted by MRasheed
I don't 'hate' him. There's no need for all of that. But I do recognize him as being the most overrated of comic book writers...

The whole argument is not based on hype. That's a ridiculous statement that would only be true if these characters were actually real. Then it would sound like you were talking about Ken Shamrock (someone who has zero skill but hyped as 'the most dangerous man alive'😉.

The argument is that the character's bio was established when he first showed up. [b]HE NEEDED TO BE the greatest, most skilled fighter in the universe in order for that story of the Thing's "heart" to even work. But here Jim Starlin came along and threw out all of Champion's creator's bio in order to hype up his own character Thanos, and turned the Champion into a bumbling fool made even more foolish because he's been studying martial arts since the beginning of this universe. Now evry new writer who thinks like you because Starlin's Thanos Quest is now imprinted on their minds comes along and writes stupid @ss stories (like the She-Hulk one you posted) that continues the tradition started by Starlin, who is no more worthy of emulation than Rob Liefield.

All Jim Starlin that has accomplished here is ruin Champion's original story. If any Tom, D!ck or She-Hulk can work out a few weeks at Bally's Total Fitness and defeat the Champion of the Universe what does that do to the Thing's victory? It's like having a Jim Starlin inspired writer write the next Rocky movie and he makes Laila Ali knock out Apollo Creed and Clubber Lang with one punch. What would that say about Rocky?

Since you are tired of talking about it with me then I'm done. I'm sorry you completely fail to understand the point I'm making, but that only means you are a Fan and not a Creator.

Peace. [/B]

I know what you're going to say, and the fact is, Champ has had eons to hone his skills, Thing hasn't. Pro Boxers also have roughly the same time to train, so it's not even a comparison.

Hell, even back then, he also had missed Surfer, when he was like a foot away.

I must say, this is one of the dumbest conversations I've been involved in though.

I'm actually still waiting to see something of his skill to even rule this out too. Just because he beat up thing, or got hyped up on nothing in his first appearance?

Originally posted by MRasheed
That's a ridiculous statement that would only be true if these characters were actually real.

Originally posted by MRasheed
The argument is that the character's bio was established when he first showed up. [b]HE NEEDED TO BE the greatest, most skilled fighter in the universe in order for that story of the Thing's "heart" to even work. But here Jim Starlin came along and threw out all of Champion's creator's bio in order to hype up his own character Thanos, and turned the Champion into a bumbling fool made even more foolish because he's been studying martial arts since the beginning of this universe.[/B]

Originally posted by MRasheed
Then it would sound like you were talking about Ken Shamrock (someone who has zero skill but hyped as 'the most dangerous man alive'😉.

Originally posted by MRasheed
Since you are tired of talking about it with me then I'm done. I'm sorry you completely fail to understand the point I'm making, but that only means you are a Fan and not a Creator.

The funny thing is, I'm argueing about what happened all throughout his history. You're argueing about what Champion should be, based on his in-comic statements, and not his on-panel showings.