is thier any one in dc as powerful as pretcon beyonder?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
OK now tell us what the Ascention is . . .

I've researched the meaning behind Roma's mentioning of the "Ascention"

and I haven't found a conclusive answer.

I'm absolutely sure though, it's Not DC or any other Comic Company.

Because that would mean Wanda was possibly able to Collapse all of DC,

and that's nonsense.

(Company Crossovers should be the only time DC & Marvel become significant to each other, as all canonical laws are thrown out the window when they team up, other than that, DC and Marvel should have absolutely no correlation of any kind)

If these Crossovers were canon, Marvel Bios wouldn't cloak the few instances that are mentioned with invented aliases like "the Emerald guardian" (Green Lantern) or the "extra-Dimensional scholar" (Krona)

If DC & Marvel truly had an agreement of being neighbors that can share space, they wouldn't have to use Aliases to describe the one or two DC characters that have been mentioned in obscure Marvel Bios.

Obviously Marvel wants their characters to be credited with their performance during the Cross-over, but they intelligently keep it Non-Canon by changing the names.

IMO, the Ascention is either the Heaven from "Earth Paradise" that Captain Marvel created,

or it's the Heaven where "God" was depicted in that FF#511, (not likely imo but possibly)

Those are my guesses, but it's speculation cause I really don't know yet.

They mask the names because they don't own the names, and thus can't publish them or any material containing them without consent of the other company. Acknowledging the existance of eachother in stories, doesn't change the laws behind such circumstances.

Another instance of them changing the names would have been Living Tribunal talking about his 'hooded spectral ally', in reference to the likenesses of the DC/Marvel characters. Meaning of course, The Spectre. However, I don't believe either company truly acknowledged MarvelvsDC. Meanwhile the JLA/Avengers arc continued into other arcs, and DC characters that died in the, stayed dead.. And it's listed inside of a few different bios in Marvel Handbooks, as pointed out.

Oh! And of course, Mxy mentioning offhandedly battling the Fantastic 4 as Impossible Man.

Originally posted by Juntai
Oh! And of course, Mxy mentioning offhandedly battling the Fantastic 4 as Impossible Man.

I remember that!

Didn't Mxy say something like...

"Been having fun with my new fantastic friends" and then "Gotta get back to my four new friends"?

I think there were references to the Thing as well.

Originally posted by Juntai
They mask the names because they don't own the names, and thus can't publish them or any material containing them without consent of the other company. Acknowledging the existance of eachother in stories, doesn't change the laws behind such circumstances.

If the Companies were in agreement and the Cross-overs were Canon,

I don't see why they couldn't mention the actual name.

IMO, this spells out Non-Canon.

I read your opinion and you know mine,

we'll leave it at that. 🙂

Originally posted by Juntai
Another instance of them changing the names would have been Living Tribunal talking about his 'hooded spectral ally', in reference to the likenesses of the DC/Marvel characters. Meaning of course, The Spectre. However, I don't believe either company truly acknowledged MarvelvsDC.

I didn't think that was even worth mentioning,

cause the flop that took place in that Croos-over was insulting to say the least.

But I agree with what you said.

Originally posted by Juntai
Meanwhile the JLA/Avengers arc continued into other arcs, and DC characters that died in the, stayed dead..

?

Originally posted by Juntai
And it's listed inside of a few different bios in Marvel Handbooks, as pointed out.

Two obscure bios, with vague references that use aliases to mention the Two DC characters.

Had Eternity's Bio mentioned the incident, I would concede,

because then we're talking about the Marvel Cosmology, instead of two nobodies,

like Pulsar and Cage.

Originally posted by Juntai
Oh! And of course, Mxy mentioning offhandedly battling the Fantastic 4 as Impossible Man.

I've told you,

if it sticks to Marvel continuity, I would fully accept it, like X-O,

but if they try and remake the Cosmology to suit the Crossover's plot,

it's garbage IMO.

Originally posted by Mr Master
?

Originally posted by Juntai
http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15460

This is what stood out for me:

"Inter-company crossovers, fairly rare creatures now, used to be much more plentiful,

but nearly without exception,

they occurred “somewhere else,”

in a dimension where both the Teen Titans and X-Men operate, for example,

following up on plot threads from JLA/Avengers in JLA is a rarity –

an event in itself in that it continues in one of DC’s flagship titles.

Given that the ongoing JLA series won’t be changing it’s name to JLA/Avengers, some careful storytelling will be necessary for Busiek. “You won't be seeing any flashback panel with the Avengers in 'em, that's for sure."

As you can see, for starters this has nothing to do with Marvel.

Just like I hypothersized,

Cross-overs take place in a Reality of their own,
which neither Marvel or DC can claim or be superior concerning each other.

This follow up, will be restricted to DC, and is completely disconnected from Marvel occurances, this is why we "won't be seeing any Flashbacks" of the JLA/Avengers Crossover, as that took place in that "Crossover Dimension" that only existed during the Arc.

This story begins with Krona, as a Cosmic Egg and will not even be including the events that lead upto Krona's transformation. Does this mean they're picking and choosing what can be used from the JLA/Avengers residue?

Sounds like it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
This is what stood out for me:

"[B]Inter-company crossovers, fairly rare creatures now, used to be much more plentiful,

but nearly without exception,

they occurred “somewhere else,”

in a dimension where both the Teen Titans and X-Men operate, for example,

following up on plot threads from JLA/Avengers in JLA is a rarity –

an event in itself in that it continues in one of DC’s flagship titles.

Given that the ongoing JLA series won’t be changing it’s name to JLA/Avengers, some careful storytelling will be necessary for Busiek. “You won't be seeing any flashback panel with the Avengers in 'em, that's for sure."

As you can see, for starters this has nothing to do with Marvel.

Just like I hypothersized,

Cross-overs take place in a Reality of their own,
which neither Marvel or DC can claim or be superior concerning each other.

This follow up, will be restricted to DC, and is completely disconnected from Marvel occurances, this is why we "won't be seeing any Flashbacks" of the JLA/Avengers Crossover, as that took place in that "Crossover Dimension" that only existed during the Arc.

This story begins with Krona, as a Cosmic Egg and will not even be including the events that lead upto Krona's transformation. Does this mean they're picking and choosing what can be used from the JLA/Avengers residue?

Sounds like it. [/B]

Didn’t need to respond to every single thing you posted because a lot of it was either highly irrelevant or had been previously addressed.

Lets do this.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Marvel Omniverse is specific to Marvel.

Nope. When the omniverse is depicted in a marvel comic it’s done so from a Marvel perspective, understandably with a Marvel bias however the omniverse is not Marvel specific, nowhere in a Marvel comic is that stated, therefore I or anyone with any shred will not accept that point from you. All your evidence does is tell us there’s an omniverse and there are characters within marvel with omniversal roles.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Devices that destroy ANY Universe in the Omniverse actually, but who's counting.

By your logic Roma and Merlyn can erase the DC Universe anytime they wish. 😂

Dude,

you're losing yourself trying to convince us that Roma can Destroy the DC Universe

with the flick of a switch.

I hope someone is reading this nonsense.

You're gonna get in trouble with the DC fans pumping that bull shit.

So Roma and Merlyn can destroy any Universe in DC they wish? 😆

"In ALL the OMNI-VERSE

there is NOT ONE Universe that I cannot DESTROY at the Touch of a Switch"

That's the Celestial Nullifier; it belongs to Roma and Merlyn.

How silly you think it is, is highly irrelevant. By definition, there can only be one omniverse. Marvel and DC can’t have their own omniverses, they can each talk of an omniverse from their companies’ perspective, but they have never ever said that they have their own omniverses. On top of that, they acknowledge each others multiverses within the continuity of both companies. JLA/Avengers is continuity for DC and in Marvel the event is referenced in bios. Want to know why the DC characters aren’t referenced by name? COPYRIGHT. Marvel.com has a nice section devoted to what can and can’t be included in marvel bios and crossover character names are listed as something NOT ALLOWED DUE TO COPYRIGHT. :

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Talk:Main_Page#Characters_from_crossovers

On top of that omniversal roles are possessed by characters from both companies and for all their talk of being able to destroy or affect an omniverse, it either never happens or if it does then its always done from that specific companies perspective because that’s all they have the right to do by copyright law unless they write up an agreement with the other company allowing them to specifically depict or refer to the other company’s property being affected/destroyed.

Originally posted by Mr Master
How can the DC & 616 Multiverse be neighbors in Continuity,

when the Brothers which BELONG to Marvel now are MegaverseS?

And it's ALL CANON, according to the OHOTMU v5 (2006)

"[B]the Living Tribunal also helped fashion the twin Entities the BROTHERS, each of whom became the guardian of a different Megaverse, within the larger Omniverse but encompassing MORE than a single Multiverse"[/B]

The brothers aren’t Megaverses. As stated on panel and in bios they were each assigned by LT to be architects and guardians of a Megaverse.

Originally posted by Mr Master
LT manipulated these MegaverseS which are a collection of MultiverseS.

How the heck is DC and Marvel just a single Multiverse then,

like "someone" is proclaiming?

Silly, silly. Yet another example of you not reading text properly, ending up with a complete misinterpretation in your head which unfortunately you then proceed to share with ourselves. 😬

Megaverses aren’t a collection of multiverses, they are universes which don’t follow the hierarchical structure of any one multiverse in particular, they can be equally associated to one multiverse as they are to another hence LT’s bio saying “Associated realms from different multiverses are referred to as Megaverses and when talking of the brothers and their roles as guardians of their own Megaverses “ each of whom became the guardian of a different Megaverse, within the larger omniverse but ENCOMPASSING MORE THAN A SINGLE multiverse.

So there are two canon Marvel titles where DC is acknowledged as being within the same omniverse. There’s JLA/Avengers and X-men Adventures #12 where when creating the brothers it is said he consulted his “hooded spectral ally” (The Spectre) and in his bio its said he HELPED to fashion the brothers.

The company’s acknowledge each other as existing within the same creation and yet it’s stated that there is only one omniverse. Once again, how silly YOU think it is in light of the official line is highly irrelevant. 🙁

Originally posted by Mr Master

[B]So a Cosmic Cube at Full potential So can erase the entire DC Reality?:

according to your Logic? ... Yes

"The MultiverseS topple over like dominos ...

One Omniversal Plane implodes into nothingness ...

until the Only thing left of Reality ...

Is Nothing ..."

[/B]

Nope. Not exactly my friend.

Iron Man and X-O Manowar: Heavy Metal was a standalone out of continuity piece of work conjured up by Acclaim with permission to use Marvel characters in an attempt to get comic book fans to buy their rubbish game of the same name.

Please find a source stating this as continuity for Marvel or take that scan out of my sight.

Iron Man was one of the headlining characters in that 1996 comic where the multiverses were destroyed.

Lets see if there’s a mention of it in his last official bio:

Hmmmm 😖hifty:

Given the destruction wrecked on reality I wonder if Eternity’s bio mentions this promotional comic:

Anyone surprised?

Intriguing take either way. Just a shame the story’s irrelevant to Marvel continuity. 😱

Originally posted by Mr Master
Observe yall,

how this huge essay has one thing in mind.

The scan provided is typical to say the least, it's half the story. (I'm not surprised)

The argument is, did Pre-retcon Beyonder kill an Aspect of Death (Universal)

or did he kill the Totality of Death? (Multiversal)

OK,

this is what his Argument is based on: (Please Read)

What you will not be seeing from him is the NEXT Page,

Where Beyonder travels across this so called Reality 616 that is a "Multiverse,"

As you will see, 😂 wait, this is kinda funny yall,

after all that yip yap up top,

but anyway,

As you will see,

Beyonder travels past the Dark Dimension, which is Outside of 616.

[B]Beyonder travels past the Microverse, located in a completely Different,

and SEPARATE Universe.

Beyonder even reaches the Crossroads a Nexus of Realities,

located in-between countless UniverseS.

Beyonder Traveled across the Actual Multiverse,

(nigh-Infinite amount of Whole UniverseS)

NOT some imaginary Reality 616 Multiverse.

Checkmate!

bottom

hang [/B]

Sorry to tell you this mate, but you've only once again highlighted the gaping holes in your Marvel knowledge. It’s cool though, that’s why I’m here.

Asgard is a pocket dimension connected with 616, which is exactly the reason why Thor and sometimes Odin get involved during threats to Earth or the universe and why there are alternate versions of Asgard in many, MANY What Ifs. It is a pocket dimension within the proper universe.

Mephistos realm is also a pocket dimension tied to 616 and this is also why you see Mephisto involved in 616 matters and why you have seen alternate universes with their own versions of Mephisto and his realm, the Earth/Universe/ParadiseX series for example.

At the time of writing microverses were said to be smaller dimensions existing within the atoms of larger dimensions, hence its presentation as a pocket dimension here.

The Dark dimension is also a dimension connected with 616 with there being Dark dimensions and Darkforce users in alternate realities.

For all of those reasons that is why Beyonder deems 616 a multiverse of sorts.

Checkmate? 😕 You presume too much. 😬

Beyonder argument handled previously here:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
So after all of that still nothing to prove that a Multi Death exists. Please show me an on panel statement or an official bio that states that to be the case or give up this fantasy.

The SOLE reasoning behind your argument is that when Beyonder killed Death, the affects were said to be felt across the multiverse. That’s not good enough for you to make the assumption that there exists a previously unheard of Multi Death, a character which was never mentioned on panel before, at the time or ever since.

Secret Wars 2 took place within the 616 universe. It affected 616 characters.

616 Eternity has been referred to as a multiverse on panel before, because within his borders he contains many pocket dimensions.

In the Secret Wars 2 Saga the very same one that this Multi Death fantasy came from, Beyonder states that the universe he’s in the 616 universe where the story took place is actually a multiverse in its own right:

Like it or not, that provides a completely acceptable explanation for the comments from the abstracts about how Deaths destruction could be felt across the multiverse. The argument for there being a Multi Death is based not on an on panel statement referring to such a characters existence, not from an official bio referring to such a character but instead from a comment that can easily be explained away when you look at all the evidence available and take it all into consideration.

Beyonders comments from the same Saga can NOT be ignored, they offer a plausible explanation. My interpretation at least doesn’t involve the fabrication of a character never seen or heard of before or since the event officially. Don’t make up characters to justify your vision of the hierarchy. Except what stated plain as day to be the case. Once again show me where the entity Multi Death is officially and conclusively defined.

here:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Stop trying to explain away the bio of 616 Death marking out this universal abstract as the one killed by bringing up the retcon. Beyonder may have been retconned however the abstract Death wasn’t. The story took place in 616, it featured 616 characters. The 616 bios of a multitude of characters talk of Beyonder most notably those of 616 Death and Eternity.

(5th paragraph down)

Beyonder back then killed 616 Death and that had an affect on Eternity who as the Secret Wars 2 Saga revealed is a multiverse in his own right, hence the “multiversal” affects produced by Beyonder killing 616 Death. Beyonder and the Molecule Man went through various changes since that saga was out, but that doesn’t mean that the characters around them had their powers altered accordingly otherwise what would have been the point in depowering a character too powerful, a character who upset the hierarchy when you’re just going to depower the rest of the hierarchy along with him?

and here:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
That hyperbole about having a million times the power of the multiverse, is most definitely hyperbole. It was never demonstrated on panel and his performances on panel contradicted thsi statement.

He got manhandled by Galactus level power wielded by someone who had only been possession of this level of power since earlier that day and yet you would have us believe that solar system destroying power is a match for a power a million times that of the multiverse?

Beyonder killed the universal abstract Death and didnt have the raw power to re-create Death alone.

He needed the consent of a human so that he could bring Death back and yet some would have us believe the unproven on panel statement that he wielded a million times the power of the multiverse is anything but hyperbole? 🤨

That will suffice.

Originally posted by Juntai
They mask the names because they don't own the names, and thus can't publish them or any material containing them without consent of the other company. Acknowledging the existance of eachother in stories, doesn't change the laws behind such circumstances.

✅

Marvunapp, the site Mr Master is always heralding as near continuity dictators because of its close links with the handbook writers and recognition as a valuable source of Marvel info marks out megaverses to be universes or associated realms outside of the main Marvel multiverse, but within the greater omniverse that everything is in.

Lets see what he has to say about the sites credibility in this instance where theyre shooting down his argument(fantasy)

Here are some choice quotes:

the Transformers-UK universe is considered possibly part of the Marvel Multiverse. On the other hand, due to the fact that the hierarchy of cosmic characters of both Transformers universes [Unicron, Primus] does not mesh with the usual Marvel assortment of cosmic beings [Eternity, Death, Galactus, Lord Chaos, Master Order, etc.] one could place them in the Marvel Megaverse along with such tertiary realms as Earth-Shadowline. In any event, Death's Head encountered the Doctor at the Crossroads of Time, a point of intersection, a buffer zone between the Doctor Who Multiverse and the Marvel Multiverse/Megaverse.)

So a universe or realm that is associated with Marvel however it doesnt share the same hierarchical structure as the main marvel multiverse is termed a megaverse.

More confirmation on what a megaverse actually is:

Earth-616, the mainstream Marvel world, exists within a single Universe. A collection of similar, but divergent worlds, such as Earth X, Earth-MC2, and the What If? worlds, which have a similar universal power structure exist within the same Multiverse. An Earth that does not appear to have any similarities to the universal structure and hierarchy of Earth-616 or similar worlds, and thus it would be outside of the mainstream Multiverse, but within the greater Omniverse. It has been suggested that there may be one more division present between Multiverse and Omniverse, to link asociated worlds, such as those linked to Marvel, and to keep distinct from other such groupings, such as those associated with DC or other titles. Thus worlds like the New Universe or the Shadowline might be contained within the Marvel Megaverse.

Interesting. Lets continue 😖hifty:

Past stories have established that characters that are generally unique to certain multiverses are fictional to characters from other multiverses. (Of course, the reason that they tend to be unique to a certain multiverse has to do with the fact that they are strictly copyrighted and trademarked.) Somehow, a sort of "bleeding through" occurs by which certain people become subconsciously aware of events in other multiverses, and these people tend to be comic book artists and writers who use these visions for their work. For concrete examples of this phenomenon, in the New Universe (which, although owned by Marvel completely, to preserve a distinctive feel, has been designated as outside of the multiverse), the X-Men are only fictional characters-see Starbrand#11-12 for confirmation. The X-Men do not have counterparts in the New Universe. Superman/Fantastic Four established that Superman, of the DC Multiverse/Hypertimelines, is known on Earth-616 as only a fictional character. Superman does not have an Earth-616 counterpart. (Incidentally, Thor and other characters based on folklore and mythology--which are of course, public domain--are exceptions to this rule.)

So basically more confirmation that all comic book properties exist in the same omniverse, but just in separate multiverses and they do not depict each other unless given specific permission to(e.g one off crossovers)because of copyright.

For more info, heres the link:

http://www.marvunapp.com/list/app8162.htm

Cool. 🙂

Interesting, it actually mentions the other companies, and even specifically mentions DC in relation to the Marvel reality.