Abraxas vs anti monitor

Started by Nikkolas4 pages

Okay. Here is his exact post.

Ok, I've been doing some research into the whole COIE ordeal, and I've come to the conclusion that there's NO WAY, AM could win this fight. You see, as it turns out AM DIDN'T have the power of a near multi-verse. What he had was the power of a SINGLE large universe. Need proof? OK take a look...
http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?i...isis715vo9.jpg

See, when one of the positive matter universes were destroyed, the anti matter universe expanded. AM didn't get all the power of the destroyed universe, his own universes power just increased. And that's what he got, the power of the Anti Matter Universe. He even says it himself, check it out...
http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=824nt5.jpg
http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=825ch8.jpg

So how much power did he get when he absorbed his universe? Well, luckily enough, that's covered earlier in the same issue...
http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=815sf3.jpg

So he has the power of 53 million worlds, with more that 2 million of them containing life. Now I'm pretty sure that Marvel has never released an exact number on the population of the multi-verse, but given that there's an infinite number of universes within it, I feel safe in saying that there are more worlds(inhabited, and uninhabited) within Marvel's multi-verse, than there is within the anti matter universe. And what does that mean? Well that means that ME has MORE power to draw from, and is therefore more powerful.

(Now to all of those that are arguing for AM absorbing Multi Eternity, I would just like to point out that he NEVER demonstrated the ability to absorb a standard universe, only an anti matter universe. Matter and anti matter cancel each other out, so if he HAD tried to absorb one of the standard universes, it would have probably destroyed him. So he WON'T be absorbing any part of ME.)

Now as for the big show down at the dawn of time, I want you to take a look at something...
http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?i...sis1023fd0.jpg

Well look what AM says in the first and second panels. He used his energy to breach the Wall of Creation, and NEEDED the life energy of DC's heroes to complete the next step. So apparently, the power he absorbed, wasn't even enough to complete his plan. So even if AM got the chance to go back in time to try to destroy ME, he wouldn't have the power to do it when he got there.

Now for those of you who are bound to point out that it took the Spectre to stop AM, well I have come up with 2 possible answers as to why that was necessary.

1. At the time, the Spectre simply wasn't as powerful at the time as he is now.
2. (And this is the one I believe) It was the single BIGGEST PIS showing in comic book history. Need proof of that? Well look...
http://img92.imageshack.us/my.php?im...sis1025vg7.jpg

Now think about that. The Spectre is backed by God, but for some reason he needs the power of some sorcerers to turn the tide? The way I figure it, DC needed someone that was more powerful than all the heroes put together for the big climactic showdown.But Kismet(DC's Eternity) hadn't been introduced yet. So who did DC have that fit that description? Spectre.

Looking at all this, I think it's safe to say, that Multi-Eternity wins this fight without to much trouble

And some more

First of all, let me say thanks for the props everyone.

Second of all, everyone who's a big DC fan, should get ready to HATE me(if you don't already), because I've discovered something that's going to PISS you off. However it will also explain how the Anti Matter Universe, was able to expand and become more powerful, while retaining it's original size(which I already covered in my last post). Just remember, I didn't come up with this stuff, I'm only pointing it out.

Now we'll start with the beginnings of the DC Multiverse(I've included the first two pages of it's origin for anybody who doesn't know it, but the important stuff doesn't start until the third scan)...

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/...risis707ks6.jpg
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/...risis708ye4.jpg

This one's a little more important, which is why you get a thumbnail for it(even though I already posted it)...
http://img243.imageshack.us/my.php?i...isis709qz3.jpg

Now the reason I say that the third scan is more important, is because it shows the universes overlapping to a degree, without actually interacting. Why you ask? Because the universes that made up the DC multi-verse, weren't laid out side by side, they were kind of stacked within the same space, and were separated by vibrational wavelengths that kept them from actually interacting with each other. This is first mentioned on the first page of the first book...
http://img170.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page01uy9.jpg

See at the bottom it says that the universes were vibrating and replicating. Now I would also like to bring your attention to the part(in the same narration box), that says "what should have been one became many", because that's about to be important.

So what does all this talk about the universe fracturing and the resulting universes being separated by vibrations have to do with anything? Well I'll get to that after I show you these scans, which point out something important about the multi-verses origin...
http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page12qg5.jpg

This is from the first book. Look at what it says in the upper right hand panel. "The universe once divided into many parts...Each one different, independent, yet somehow WEAKER than the whole". What does this mean exactly? Well to put it bluntly, it means that even though DC at the time was a multiverse, it was a weak multiverse that only contained as much power as a single universe. And before anyone tries to call BS on the fact, here's the Monitor saying the same thing in the forth book...
http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?i...sis0419su7.jpg

"The universe was split apart at the dawn of time...each part WEAKER than the whole it was meant to be". He also says that the universes are separated by by vibrations and time.

When all of this is taken into account, here are my theories on the matter...

About AM's power increasing with the destruction of the positive matter universes... Well his universe obviously didn't grow outward and actually become larger(because of the dimensions given for it and because of the impossibility of an infinite number of universes being placed side by side). It would be more accurate to say that it grew in DENSITY(it's the best word I could think of to describe it). It became more real, and more like the ORIGINAL universe in overall power.

This also means(and THIS is what's really going to piss some people off), that even at the height of his power, AM wasn't even as powerful as a SINGLE intact universe(because there were still 5 universes left out to complete the whole). So not only could he not take Multi Eternity, he probably couldn't take the universal aspect of Eternity either. His power falls just shy(5 mini universes to be exact).

Before everyone starts attacking me as a "DC hater", let me just say that I've spent the past three days going over all this stuff, but there IS a chance I missed something. So if anyone has any evidence which goes against all this, feel free to bring it to the table, and I'll address it. Also, I have no idea, on how powerful DC's universe is NOW. All this stuff relates only to the power of DC during COIE. I'm not saying that Marvel's universe is STILL more powerful.

Originally posted by Nikkolas
Okay. Here is his exact post.

Who ever takes time to read that can't dispute what the man is saying.

He was right, with the on panel evidence all the way.

I had forgotten how meticulous he was., nice, real nice DG.

really nice nikkolas for finding the post

Originally posted by Mr Master
Who ever takes time to read that can't dispute what the man is saying.

He was right, with the on panel evidence all the way.

I had forgotten how meticulous he was., nice, real nice DG.

When he's showing the scans, he certainly is pretty much on point. My beef with it comes in once he starts adding in his own theories.

First off, the very idea of any multiverse, is that they are universes stacked, seperated by vibrational frequencies. In fact, many modern sciences is based on it. I'm not even sure why he added that part in, when that is what a multiverse is.
I won't even get started on the completely unsupported "anti-matter universe growing in density" and "becoming more real" stuff.

Secondly, it says DC was meant to be one whole universe, but instead was seperated into many 'weaker' ones. However, we know the reason isn't that the very time/space is really any weaker, but the idea that that the defenders were all seperated, where in the DCU that followed, they all co-existed on the same plane. But before COIE, for example; the Marvel family having its own Earth S. The GL's only existed in one universe. Firestorm only existed in one universe. The JSA having it's own universe. When it was over, this all came together as one universe with all the heros and villains to protect it. Similar to how Anti-Monitor was actually stopped [when several Earths of heros stood against him]

Anti-Monitor did destroy universe after universe. There is nothing to take that away from him.

And now after Infinite Crisis, the Earths are replicating again. There's currently 52, but when all is said done its going to be a megaverse according to Rip.

And for the record, it was a weaker Spectre. However he was still pretty much the most powerful guy... He was retconned later down the road into what he is known for today, in volume 3 under Ostrander and Mandrake.

Originally posted by Juntai
Anti-Monitor did destroy universe after universe. There is nothing to take that away from him.
Exactly.

The Monitor himself even said that AM had destroyed thousands of Universes, [and that was near the beginning of his rampage].

IMO it's digging extremely deep when people attempt to belittle this feat by saying it was only one Universe, because each divergent Universe was "weaker". 🙄

Bottom line,

Before COIE/AM, DC was a Multiverse.

After COIE/AM, DC was a single Universe.

Originally posted by Juntai
And for the record, it was a weaker Spectre. However he was still pretty much the most powerful guy..
Yeah Spectre was weaker then we know him today, but at the same time, he was seeing things undreamt of by even his creator [God].

So he was still pretty damn powerful when he fought AM.

Spectre without the Logos is not at the Living Tribunal's level, he had trouble with Captain Marvel for God's sake.

Spectre unhosted is weaker than Mxyztplk, Anti-Monitor and many, many more.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Spectre without the Logos is not at the Living Tribunal's level
Well considering that any "low showing" LT has is simply disregarded as PIS, that's not too surprising. 😬

Originally posted by Galan007
Well considering that any "low showing" LT has is simply disregarded as PIS, that's not too surprising. 😬

What low showings?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
What low showings?
Meh,

The celestial incident, and Reed's "super gun" come to mind. 😬

The Living Tribunal didn't try to stop Protege, and Reed's "super gun" happend in a dream--retconned!

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
The Living Tribunal didn't try to stop Protege, and Reed's "super gun" happend in a dream--retconned!
Last planet standing was retconned? When did that happen?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
The Living Tribunal didn't try to stop Protege, and Reed's "super gun" happend in a dream
Don't cry.

Those were just some lower showings.... Every character has 'em. 😉

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Spectre without the Logos is not at the Living Tribunal's level, he had trouble with Captain Marvel for God's sake.

Spectre unhosted is weaker than Mxyztplk, Anti-Monitor and many, many more.


Brawling with a Capt.Marvel who was roughly backed by every Magical being in the DCU is not a low showing.It's not like Marvel beat him anyway.
Weaker than Mxy?nah.Spectre could of outright absorbed him if they had fought.

Originally posted by Big Sexy
Last planet standing was retconned? When did that happen?

When Reed woke up and the Abstract's where alive?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
When Reed woke up and the Abstract's where alive?
The gun was never meant to kill the abstracts. 😕

Yep.

A bunch of weak mini-universes he absorbed.

Originally posted by Galan007
Don't cry.

Those were just some lower showings.... Every character has 'em. 😉

Every character does 🙂

Originally posted by Galan007
The gun was never meant to kill the abstracts. 😕

No, it was meant to kill Galactus, but it killed the abstract's instead.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
it was meant to kill Galactus

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
but it killed the abstract's instead.
🤨

No it didn't.

Have you even read that arc? My guess is no...

The cosmics were simply blown into other dimensions, via their own power. 😬