Abraxas vs anti monitor

Started by darthgoober4 pages
darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Juntai
First off, the very idea of any multiverse, is that they are universes stacked, seperated by vibrational frequencies. In fact, many modern sciences is based on it. I'm not even sure why he added that part in, when that is what a multiverse is.
I won't even get started on the completely unsupported "anti-matter universe growing in density" and "becoming more real" stuff.

But the DC universes weren't stacked, they were overlapping. I really don't know why you have a problem with my pointing that out when it's actually shown to be that way.

And I actually said that my density analogy and description of the AM universe "becoming more real was just the best way I could think of to describe it. I was just pointing out that the AM universe didn't actually increase in size when the other universes where destroyed, if you can come up with a better way to describe it be my guest.

Originally posted by Juntai
Secondly, it says DC was meant to be one whole universe, but instead was seperated into many 'weaker' ones. However, we know the reason isn't that the very time/space is really any weaker, but the idea that that the defenders were all seperated, where in the DCU that followed, they all co-existed on the same plane. But before COIE, for example; the Marvel family having its own Earth S. The GL's only existed in one universe. Firestorm only existed in one universe. The JSA having it's own universe. When it was over, this all came together as one universe with all the heros and villains to protect it. Similar to how Anti-Monitor was actually stopped [when several Earths of heros stood against him]

Ok where are you getting your idea about the "weakness" being discussed referring to the placement of the heroes, because I don't remember that EVER being established on panel? I'm not saying that each universe WASN'T weaker for the lack of missing heroes, but the universes themselves were weaker for the separation also.


"The very fabric of their being is to weak for it's total defense".

Originally posted by Juntai
Anti-Monitor did destroy universe after universe. There is nothing to take that away from him.

Yes he DID destroy universe(I'm not trying to take that away from him) but not using his own power, he utilized both prep AND tech for pretty much everything but the absorbtion of the AM universe. Acting like he was a multiversal threat without acknowledging that simple fact is no different than making the same claim for Reed Richards without acknowledging that he used the Ultimate Nullifier to destroy/recreate the multiverse, rather than his own power.

Avalonofthewind Godot Brew#107

Originally posted by Juntai
When he's showing the scans, he certainly is pretty much on point. My beef with it comes in once he starts adding in his own theories.

First off, the very idea of any multiverse, is that they are universes stacked, seperated by vibrational frequencies. In fact, many modern sciences is based on it. I'm not even sure why he added that part in, when that is what a multiverse is.
I won't even get started on the completely unsupported "anti-matter universe growing in density" and "becoming more real" stuff.

Secondly, it says DC was meant to be one whole universe, but instead was seperated into many 'weaker' ones. However, we know the reason isn't that the very time/space is really any weaker, but the idea that that the defenders were all seperated, where in the DCU that followed, they all co-existed on the same plane. But before COIE, for example; the Marvel family having its own Earth S. The GL's only existed in one universe. Firestorm only existed in one universe. The JSA having it's own universe. When it was over, this all came together as one universe with all the heros and villains to protect it. Similar to how Anti-Monitor was actually stopped [when several Earths of heros stood against him]

Anti-Monitor did destroy universe after universe. There is nothing to take that away from him.

And now after Infinite Crisis, the Earths are replicating again. There's currently 52, but when all is said done its going to be a megaverse according to Rip.

Agreed. Added to that is the argument that many use here. A part of infinity is still infinity..thus the universes aren't really any "Smaller" by our definition. A destroyed universe is still a destroyed universe...and we all know how ridiculously powerful a lot of the PC characters already were.

On top of that Alex uses Anti monitors power to restore the multiverse even adding Tangent which wasn't part of the original multiverse and elseworlds. Considering the thing has been dead for years and that a multiverse can still be restored with it's power is saying a whole lot. Even after the tower was destroyed, we ended up with 52 universes... had it not been destroyed, possibly much more would have been created.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Galan007
Exactly.

The Monitor himself even said that AM had destroyed thousands of Universes, [and that was near the beginning of his rampage].

IMO it's digging extremely deep when people attempt to belittle this feat by saying it was only one Universe, because each divergent Universe was "weaker". 🙄


You misunderstand Galan, my primary problem with the destruction of those other universes wasn't that they were weaker, it's that he had prep and utilized tech to destroy them. The fact that they were "weaker" comes into play when determining just how much power the Anti Matter Universe gained when they were destroyed, and by extension how much power the Anti Monitor gained when he absorbed all the power from the Anti Matter Universe.

Originally posted by Galan007
Bottom line,

Before COIE/AM, DC was a Multiverse.


But unless I'm mistaken, 616 Eternity is a multiverse of sorts due to the numerous dimensions and planes of existence within it as well. I could be wrong about that though, I just seem to remember hearing that. But if that's the case, should we assign Multiversal threat to anyone who's threatened Eternity?

Originally posted by Galan007
After COIE/AM, DC was a single Universe. Yeah Spectre was weaker then we know him today, but at the same time, he was seeing things undreamt of by even his creator [God].

So he was still pretty damn powerful when he fought AM.


But his being weaker means that AM was no where NEAR as powerful as many people are portraying him to be. Plenty of people beat Scarlet Witch before she was upgraded, but those people are no where near as powerful as someone who accomplished it today.

What's more, the energy AM used to battle the Spectre wasn't even his because he used his to breach the wall of creation. The energy he used to combat the Spectre was stolen from the Earth's heroes when they arrived at the dawn of time. Yet more evidence of the BS in the battle between the Spectre and the Anti Monitor.

And as for Spectre seeing things undreamt of by his creator, that in and of itself seems kinda ridiculous if you believe the Presence to be omniscient.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by darthgoober
You misunderstand Galan, my primary problem with the destruction of those other universes wasn't that they were weaker, it's that he had prep and utilized tech to destroy them.
Please tell that to the people arguing against AM for that reason then. 😄
Originally posted by darthgoober
But unless I'm mistaken, 616 Eternity is a multiverse of sorts due to the numerous dimensions and planes of existence within it as well. I could be wrong about that though, I just seem to remember hearing that. But if that's the case, should we assign Multiversal threat to anyone who's threatened Eternity?
That crap is in Marvel.

In DC, a single Universe has never been described as a Multiverse of any kind.

The Multiverse was never meant or described as being part of one Universe..

Originally posted by darthgoober
What's more, the energy AM used to battle the Spectre wasn't even his because he used his to breach the wall of creation.
That right there is more then I ever saw Abraxas do.

Originally posted by darthgoober
And as for Spectre seeing things undreamt of by his creator, that in and of itself seems kinda ridiculous if you believe the Presence to be omniscient.
srug

IMO it was just a way to show how greatly Spectre had been amped.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Galan007
Please tell that to the people arguing against AM for that reason then. 😄

I don't know why you think they'll listen to me. But if you really think it'll help then yeah...

Originally posted by darthgoober
my primary problem with the destruction of those other universes wasn't that they were weaker, it's that he had prep and utilized tech to destroy them. The fact that they were "weaker" comes into play when determining just how much power the Anti Matter Universe gained when they were destroyed, and by extension how much power the Anti Monitor gained when he absorbed all the power from the Anti Matter Universe.

So I'm in complete support of the opinion that Anti Monitor is capable of destroying a multiverse given tech, prep, and several billion years to accomplish the task 😄 .

Originally posted by Galan007
The Multiverse was never meant or described as being part of one Universe..

But it was. It was originally one universe that split into many universes each of which were weaker than the original.

Originally posted by Galan007
That right there is more then I ever saw Abraxas do.

Oh I'm not debating the fight, just AM's perceived level of power(I never even really got into the Abraxes arc, so I don't know a lot about him).

But while I'm thinking about it, exactly how much power does that kind of thing take anyway? I thought that Waverider was capable of that kind of thing WITHOUT expending all his power?

Originally posted by Galan007
srug

IMO it was just a way to show how greatly Spectre had been amped.


But it's also a poor description since it would imply limits to the omniscience of the Presence.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't know why you think they'll listen to me. But if you really think it'll help then yeah...
Meh,

Just wanted you to know why I had been debating this. 😛

Originally posted by darthgoober
So I'm in complete support of the opinion that Anti Monitor is capable of destroying a multiverse
Not the Multiverse in one foul swoop, but rather Universe by Universe.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But it was. It was originally one universe that split into many universes each of which were weaker than the original.
Right,

But once they split up, the Universes were no longer one unit...

Meaning each Universe, became it's own [that's what I originally meant] 😮

And remember, weaker is an extremely vague term.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But it's also a poor description since it would imply limits to the omniscience of the Presence.
I agree.

But do you see where I'm coming from?

Mr Master Junior Member

Originally posted by darthgoober
But unless I'm mistaken, 616 Eternity is a multiverse of sorts due to the numerous dimensions and planes of existence within it as well.

I could be wrong about that though,

I just seem to remember hearing that.

I have to disagree with this one point DG,

the same guy who pumped that fallacy about 616 into this forum is guilty of many outlandish claims.

616 is One Universe/Reality and nothing more, with Pocket Dimensions.

The Prime Multiverse is all the Divergent and Alternate UniverseS/RealitieS that emulate 616.

Eternity is both and all.

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Galan007

Not the Multiverse in one foul swoop, but rather Universe by Universe.

Reed Richards did it faster and to a greater degree 😉 .

Originally posted by Galan007

Right,

But once they split up, the Universes were no longer one unit...

Meaning each Universe, became it's own [that's what I originally meant] 😮

And remember, weaker is an extremely vague term.


But even if we work off the assumption that each universe increased in power after their separation(which is never touched upon), AM STILL didn't have the power of an entire Multiverse. He was 5 shy and he NEEDED to destroy those other universes to reach full power(so he still wasn't even as powerful as even Multi Eternity).

Originally posted by Galan007

I agree.

But do you see where I'm coming from?


I DO see where you're coming from and you COULD be right, but there's just no real evidence of it. You know how I am about theorizing about how powerful cosmics are(I really hate speculating), and there's just no real evidence to support AM being as powerful as many let on. It's POSSIBLE that GS is correct about just how powerful Marvel wants Phoenix to be, but without evidence we don't support that. AT MOST(going by on panel evidence) he was just below someone like Multi Eternity's level of power, which is far below where many place him in the cosmic hierarchy.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by darthgoober
Reed Richards did it faster and to a greater degree 😉 .
Yep, all on his own right? 😘
Originally posted by darthgoober
AM STILL didn't have the power of an entire Multiverse. He was 5 shy and he NEEDED to destroy those other universes to reach full power(so he still wasn't even as powerful as even Multi Eternity).
I never compared AM's power to Multi-Eternity. 😕

I was only debating the fact that AM DIDN'T absorb just 1 Universe, and a bunch of weak little Universes [as some users are suggesting].

He absorbed Universes, true Universes. That was point from the beginning. 🙂

Originally posted by darthgoober
I DO see where you're coming from and you COULD be right, but there's just no real evidence of it. You know how I am about theorizing about how powerful cosmics are(I really hate speculating), and there's just no real evidence to support AM being as powerful as many let on. It's POSSIBLE that GS is correct about just how powerful Marvel wants Phoenix to be, but without evidence we don't support that. AT MOST(going by on panel evidence) he was just below someone like Multi Eternity's level of power, which is far below where many place him in the cosmic hierarchy.
Again, I never compared AM to M-E.

Just debated the amount ofUniverses he absorbed. 😉

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Galan007
Yep, all on his own right? 😘

No he used tech and prep, just like AM 😄 .

Originally posted by Galan007
I never compared AM's power to Multi-Eternity. 😕

I was only debating the fact that AM DIDN'T absorb just 1 Universe, and a bunch of weak little Universes [as some users are suggesting].

He absorbed Universes, true Universes.


The only universe he absorbed was the Anti Matter Universe, the others he destroyed when he released Anti Matter into them. But I see what your saying.

Originally posted by Galan007
Again, I never compared AM to M-E.

Just debated how many Universes he absorbed. 😉


Again he only absorbed 1(but I still see your point), I was just clarifying that he's still no where near LT or current Spectre in power.

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by darthgoober
No he used tech and prep, just like AM 😄
Reed's tech was a little better then AM's lol.

Originally posted by darthgoober
The only universe he absorbed was the Anti Matter Universe, the others he destroyed when he released Anti Matter into them. But I see what your saying.
*Destroyed* would have been the more appropriate term.

AM only absorbed his own Universe [which contained the power of what he has previously destroyed].

Originally posted by darthgoober
I was just clarifying that he's still no where near LT or current Spectre in power.
I never said otherwise. 😕

darthgoober Senior Member

Originally posted by Galan007
Reed's tech was a little better then AM's lol.

That's because Reed's smarter 😛 .

Juntai Divine Vengeance

Originally posted by darthgoober
But the DC universes weren't stacked, they were overlapping. I really don't know why you have a problem with my pointing that out when it's actually shown to be that way.

And I actually said that my density analogy and description of the AM universe "becoming more real was just the best way I could think of to describe it. I was just pointing out that the AM universe didn't actually increase in size when the other universes where destroyed, if you can come up with a better way to describe it be my guest.

Yes he DID destroy universe(I'm not trying to take that away from him) but not using his own power, he utilized both prep AND tech for pretty much everything but the absorbtion of the AM universe. Acting like he was a multiversal threat without acknowledging that simple fact is no different than making the same claim for Reed Richards without acknowledging that he used the Ultimate Nullifier to destroy/recreate the multiverse, rather than his own power.

My point -- although I admit I've had a rough time finding a way to spell it out. -- is that the overlapped universes, seperated as such on wavelengths, is actually the basis of the very IDEA of a multiverse. It is something intrinsic to the concept. It is not exclusive to the DC universe. Many quantum mechanics, physics, and theories are grounded in it. What was one, became many, it's the very idea of divergent and alternate realities.

If anything, all the scans in the breakdown you made long ago, is simply not just that the DC multiverse is weaker than another multiverse, but that the idea that the post-COIE Universe, was stronger than a multiverse. At least in terms of simplicity and cohesiveness[in more meanings than one]. Because it wasn't seperated as a multiverse is. . Which is exactly the point of Crisis on Infinite Earths, both in character, and editorially.

It was a full fledged multiversal infinitude. However, STRONGER as a single unit, stronger than a multiverse. It also kept many of the best aspects of each universe, including the heros, as I mentioned earlier.

But yes, I'll give you that most of Anti-Monitor's stuff was done with tech. Even fighting the then weaker Spectre, he was amping with all sorts of energy, and many of the strongest heros and villains of 5 universes. His threat was still the same, however, and he's still probably the most important bad-guy in comics history.

Juntai Divine Vengeance

For reference about all realities being overlayed in the same fashion, you can either research the actual science about it, or look for other comics with a reference, or both.
For example; even JLA/Avengers suggests that even Marvel and DC's entire realities take up the same space, in a different vibrational range.
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5479578
"Another universe occupying the same space but a different vibratory plane of reality"

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by darthgoober
That's because Reed's smarter 😛 .
Yeah it couldn't have been that little hand-held plot device falling into his hands that helped huh?

😛 j/k

Juntai Divine Vengeance

Originally posted by Galan007
Yeah it couldn't have been that little hand-held plot device falling into his hands that helped huh?

😛 j/k

No, it was his awesome stretching powers.

Priest Senior Member

Darkseid almost killed the AntiMonitor shy

Galan007 |Quantum Observer|

Originally posted by Priest
Darkseid almost killed the AntiMonitor shy
Without Alex Luthor, that "feat" would not have been possible. 😗

GalacticStorm Smart Alec Know-It-All

Originally posted by Mr Master
I have to disagree with this one point DG,

the same guy who pumped that fallacy about 616 into this forum is guilty of many outlandish claims.

616 is One Universe/Reality and nothing more, with Pocket Dimensions.

The Prime Multiverse is all the Divergent and Alternate UniverseS/RealitieS that emulate 616.

Eternity is both and all.

Nope. Theres Multi- Eternity who is the proper multiverse (e.g all the What Ifs etc) and there are the universal Eternitys such as the 616 Eternity we know who make up this greater being and who themselves are pseudo multiverses in their own rights:

Beyonder in 616, remarking on what hes discovered about that universe:

A recent on panel distinction between a Multi- Eternity and the universal/pseudo multiversal Eternity that we all know, Eternity 616.

These universal Eternitys all together make up this Multi-Eternity however given this recent on panel distinction in terms of role and name we cannot say as per current continuity that theres just one Eternity. There are two separate entity types, with the many smaller ones making up the bigger one. The smaller ones can be destroyed with no affect on each other or as far as we've seen this Multi Eternity as a whole. These smaller ones can be termed multiverses in their own right as aforementioned and they cannot as far as we've seen or been told on panel call upon the entire power of this Multi Eternity.

Thanos_THOTU The Ghost Who Walks

GS, make a Marvel (- and possibly DC) Hierarchy. To rival and push some press at MM.