Originally posted by A Dose Of Vraya
I think that Mace dipped his toes in the darkside (ie. force crush) after the first battle of the clone wars, therefore with that and a lack of experience with fighting with the sith, he would be overwhelmed by Dooku.
Originally posted by jollyjim311
A few things: Dooku was not a big part of the CIS at that point. Well, obviously he was, but, he was saying all throughout their brief exchange how he didn't matter.I believe Vaapad has been stated to be more "open and kinetic than Form V."
Mace can draw off of whatever power Dooku uses, and use it as his own, along with his own powers (Including Shatterpoint), while using a form that has the power to take on Makashi head on. I believe Mace would win in a saber battle, and even an all out battle, even as of AOTC.
mmm, I'd like to see that quote if you could find it please. Not that it really surprises me, I'd just like to know where that was stated.
I think a bid misconception that people are having is the actual affect that Vaapad has. It doesn't take Dooku's (or any Sith's) power and push it back on them (i.e. lightning doesn't go back to the user just because), it cycles through him and gives him a power boost more or less, and lets him enjoy the battle, therefore not binding him by the light side restrictions like crush and choke. He can use these things without being tempted by the darkside. Another plus for him, is that thru Vaapad, he rarely gets tired as the energy constantly flows in and than right back out of him onto his opponent.
Again, while I'm not knocking Mace at all, I just think that Dooku has the skills to win the majority of the time. Maybe 6/10.
I must say that I find that assessment preposterous, Darth Subjekt. You have a misconception about the nature of Vaapad as well, it seems, so let me enlighten you on the subject, Subjekt (pun intended, 'cause I'm a dork):
Vaapad does skirt on the edge of the dark side, but more importantly, it allows the user (Mace) to mitigate - or sometimes negate entirely - the advantage that a dark Force user may or may not possess. In Mace vs. Sidious, Darth Sidious's advantage was his speed. The novelization goes into detail about how Vaapad allowed Mace to compensate for Sidious's blinding speed, allowing them to fight on even terrain. The movie depicts this when Sidious kills Mace's companions and then forces him - a naturally offensive fighter - on the defensive. When he is "fully immersed" in Vaapad, it allows Mace to match him, and Sidious's advantage is gone.
The second technique that enabled him to win was Shatterpoint: it allowed Mace to detect weaknesses in Palpatine's technique and the duel itself, giving him the opportunity to exploit it and overpower him. Then, when Sidious uses the Force against Vaapad, the third stage occurs and it allows Mace to channel - but not control - Palpatine's Force energy, redirecting it back upon it's source. The only obvious reason why Mace had such a hell of a time is because Palpatine is such a powerful Force user.
In this case, Dooku is susceptible to the same exploitation that Palpatine was. Vaapad will allow Mace to compensate for any advantage Dooku may or may not have in technique, and they will fight on even terms. Then Mace will bring Shatterpoint to bear against Dooku, allowing him to detect the flaws in the duel and Dooku's fighting technique, and he will exploit it. If it comes down to Dooku using the Force against Mace, it will likely come down to the same thing that it did with Sidious, the difference being: Dooku is not as powerful as Sidious is in the Force.
I used to think that Sidious would have won if he used the Force against Mace sooner - but upon analyzing the situation again - the truth is that he might not. There is no dispute that Palpatine is more powerful than Mace, but that's the trick with Vaapad: it allows Mace to negate the advantages of Sith and Dark Jedi. And then they'd be dealing with Shatterpoint, which is the true reason why Mace won the fight.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Mace might very well be the most effective warrior against Sith Lords and Dark Jedi - Luke included. In my opinion, the disparity in power between Mace and his dark side opponent would have to be enormous, and that might not even be enough.
The only other alternative to win against Mace in this case would be the beginning of the fight; Darth Sidious was able to kill Mace's companions and put Mace on the defensive for half of the fight before Mace was immersed in Vaapad. That is pretty much the only time a Sith Lord or a Dark Jedi could kill Mace, unless you're an uberpowerful Sith Lord [DE Sidious].
If the fight is prolonged, Mace will win. There is no doubt. Dooku's only shot in hell is ending the fight quick.
But it seems from the quotes you are giving that Vaapad allowed Mace to counter Palpatine just because of its ferocity, not some mystical effect the form has on dark side user, which, IMO, sounds more along the lines of D&D.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong. It's just from the way you presented the evidence).
I don't know how you came to that conclusion from my argument, but that's not it: Mace's Vaapad overcame Palpatine because its nature allows it to mitigate any advantage that a Sith Lord or Dark Jedi might have (it should be noted that Vaapad's nature is specifically geared for battling Dark Jedi, so if Mace were to fight Yoda, it wouldn't work), allowing Mace to fight him or her on even terms. In this case, Sidious's speed was his advantage and it allowed him to kill Mace's companions and put Mace on the defensive for half of the duel. However, when Mace submerged himself in Vaapad, it allowed him to fight Palpatine on an even nature essentially by replicating the same feat. Mace then detected Palpatine's Shatterpoint, allowing him to exploit the weaknesses in Sidious's technique and in the fight itself, leading to Sidious being disarmed and the fight over.
Ferocity plays a part in it, but it is actually the result. The mystical nature of Vaapad allows Mace to mitigate the advantage of his opponents, letting them fight on an even term. In Mace vs. Sidious, it is ferocity, because it allowed Mace to match Sidious's speed. Dooku would fall susceptible to the same thing.
Originally posted by Gideon
I don't know how you came to that conclusion from my argument, but that's not it: Mace's Vaapad overcame Palpatine because its nature allows it to mitigate any advantage that a Sith Lord or Dark Jedi might have (it should be noted that Vaapad's nature is specifically geared for battling Dark Jedi, so if Mace were to fight Yoda, it wouldn't work), allowing Mace to fight him or her on even terms. In this case, Sidious's speed was his advantage and it allowed him to kill Mace's companions and put Mace on the defensive for half of the duel. However, when Mace submerged himself in Vaapad, it allowed him to fight Palpatine on an even nature essentially by replicating the same feat. Mace then detected Palpatine's Shatterpoint, allowing him to exploit the weaknesses in Sidious's technique and in the fight itself, leading to Sidious being disarmed and the fight over.Ferocity plays a part in it, but it is actually the result. The mystical nature of Vaapad allows Mace to mitigate the advantage of his opponents, letting them fight on an even term. In Mace vs. Sidious, it is ferocity, because it allowed Mace to match Sidious's speed. Dooku would fall susceptible to the same thing.
But still, wouldn't that be just because Mace pushed him back with superior strength and the right amount of speed to negate Sidious's advantage, instead of some mystic effect of Vaapad? Pushing a naturally offensive fighter on the defense is always the target of the other duelist; what makes Mace so special that he understood the simple concept; see weakness, exploit weakness?
But still, wouldn't that be just because Mace pushed him back with superior strength and the right amount of speed to negate Sidious's advantage, instead of some mystic effect of Vaapad?
You misunderstand; the mystical effect of Vaapad is what allowed Mace to match Sidious's speed in the first place. Without it, Mace would have still been on the defensive and he would have lost.
Pushing a naturally offensive fighter on the defense is always the target of the other duelist;
I understand, but being actually capable of doing so meant superiority, which makes sense: Sidious went into that fight with a singular advantage over Mace; he was faster. That is what allowed him to the kill the other three and push Mace back into the public office.
what makes Mace so special that he understood the simple concept; see weakness, exploit weakness?
Shatterpoints are weaknesses in people, objects, and even concepts. Essentially, it allows Mace to detect the weaknesses in a Corusca gem - the equivilent to diamond - and by simply finding its shatterpoint, he can tap the proper spot, allowing it to shatter. Essentially, he sees weaknesses that are near-impossible to detect.
Originally posted by Gideon
You misunderstand; the mystical effect of Vaapad is what allowed Mace to match Sidious's speed in the first place. Without it, Mace would have still been on the defensive and he would have lost.I understand, but being actually capable of doing so meant superiority, which makes sense: Sidious went into that fight with a singular advantage over Mace; he was faster. That is what allowed him to the kill the other three and push Mace back into the public office.
Shatterpoints are weaknesses in people, objects, and even concepts. Essentially, it allows Mace to detect the weaknesses in a Corusca gem - the equivilent to diamond - and by simply finding its shatterpoint, he can tap the proper spot, allowing it to shatter. Essentially, he sees weaknesses that are near-impossible to detect.
Okay then. It was just from the way you described the quote it never actually pinpointed Vaapad as the reason why he overcame Sidious.
I thought you've provided, many times, sources that state Yoda is without a doubt the best weapon against the darkside, now its Mace? Hmmm. Also, all I was saying, was Vaapad in and of itself does NOT guarantee victory, and it doesn't, as I believe Dooku as beaten Vaapad user(s) before. Furthermore, that Vaapad is separate from shatterpoint, which I believe to be a huge asset, being as its effective for people, and situations.
I think Dooku is more technically sound with a saber, and I stand by that completely. You're making it sound like its impossible for any darksider to defeat Mace...I don't see how thats possible. So I don't see how my assessment is preposterous. But then, its also my assessment, so why would I, right? 😛
I
thought you've provided, many times, sources that state Yoda is without a doubt the best weapon against the darkside, now its Mace? Hmmm.
No, I said that Yoda was "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known" as stated by the omniscient narrator in the RotS novelization, and it is true. Mace is not as powerful as Yoda, and therefore isn't "the most powerful foe" of the darkness. But is he arguably the most effective? Yes.
Also, all I was saying, was Vaapad in and of itself does NOT guarantee victory, and it doesn't, as I believe Dooku as beaten Vaapad user(s) before. Furthermore, that Vaapad is separate from shatterpoint, which I believe to be a huge asset, being as its effective for people, and situations.
No. The last time Dooku beat Mace was when they were both still Jedi (I've reiterated it that Vaapad is most effective against dark siders, if you paid attention at all). Furthermore, I never said that Shatterpoint and Vaapad are the same (again, if you paid attention you'd know that), but they both give Mace a huge advantage over Dooku.
I think Dooku is more technically sound with a saber, and I stand by that completely.
And, sadly, you'd be wrong.
You're making it sound like its impossible for any darksider to defeat Mace...I don't see how thats possible.
This will be the third time you've demonstrated that you haven't paid any attention to my argument; next time, read carefully. I never said that it was impossible for a dark sider to defeat Mace. I said two things:
a.) You'd need to be an uberpowerful Sith Lord or Dark Jedi to do it or.
b.) You'd need to defeat him immediately. If the duel is prolonged, Mace will win.
So I don't see how my assessment is preposterous. But then, its also my assessment, so why would I, right? 😛
If you paid more attention, read more carefully, and actually provided some proof - as well as explaining how Mace overcame a more powerful Sith Lord than Dooku and yet he'd lose to Dooku.
Originally posted by Gideon
INo, I said that Yoda was "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness has ever known" as stated by the omniscient narrator in the RotS novelization, and it is true. Mace is not as powerful as Yoda, and therefore isn't "the most powerful foe" of the darkness. But is he arguably the most effective? Yes.
No. The last time Dooku beat Mace was when they were both still Jedi (I've reiterated it that Vaapad is most effective against dark siders, if you paid attention at all). Furthermore, I never said that Shatterpoint and Vaapad are the same (again, if you paid attention you'd know that), but they both give Mace a huge advantage over Dooku.
And, sadly, you'd be wrong.
This will be the third time you've demonstrated that you haven't paid any attention to my argument; next time, read carefully. I never said that it was impossible for a dark sider to defeat Mace. I said two things:
a.) You'd need to be an uberpowerful Sith Lord or Dark Jedi to do it or.
b.) You'd need to defeat him immediately. If the duel is prolonged, Mace [B]will
win.If you paid more attention, read more carefully, and actually provided some proof - as well as explaining how Mace overcame a more powerful Sith Lord than Dooku and yet he'd lose to Dooku. [/B]
First off, you don't need to try to talk down to me like you do Legend or Neb here.
Secondly, that statement would be worthless to even state if meant to be as literal as you're now stating. What difference would it be how powerful Yoda is if it were all for not in comparison to Mace? Also, if you would have paid attention, you will notice I never said that you said that Vaapad and shatterpoint were the same thing. I said, for people who may have had a misconception about it, that they are two separate abilities, both of which give Mace an advantage in a fight.
Also, you didn't comment on Dooku beating another Vaapad user.
And you think that Dooku mastering Makashi to the absolute highest degree still comes up short to Mace creating Vaapad? As far as just saber work (taking out the ability to redirect darkside powers) you think that Mace is a better technical saber duelist than Dooku?
Again, I didn't say you said it was impossible for Mace to lose; I said thats the way you're making it sound; also as if Dooku doesn't have what it take to finish him early.
Also, you're last point sounds like you're basing it on a possible ABC argument, which you of all people should know, doesn't always work.
But whatever's clever...like i said before, I don't even like Dooku...
First off, you don't need to try to talk down to me like you do Legend or Neb here.
Then do two things: a.) start paying closer attention and b.) start supporting your assertions. All you've done is attempted to compromise my points instead of offering any of your own or trying to dodge them. That's not how you prove your argument.
Secondly, that statement would be worthless to even state if meant to be as literal as you're now stating. What difference would it be how powerful Yoda is if it were all for not in comparison to Mace?
This is one of those moments where you need to pay more attention. The quote isn't worthless. The novelization calls Yoda "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known." Emphasis on 'powerful'. Mace is not as powerful as either Yoda or Sidious; I haven't stated nor implied that he is. In his fight with Sidious, he beat him because his form enabled him to do so thanks to mystical properties. In Yoda's case, since Yoda is a Light Sider, the properties have no effect on him.
Also, if you would have paid attention, you will notice I never said that you said that Vaapad and shatterpoint were the same thing. I said, for people who may have had a misconception about it, that they are two separate abilities, both of which give Mace an advantage in a fight.
Precisely: two advantages Dooku has no defense against.
Also, you didn't comment on Dooku beating another Vaapad user.
You're comparing Sora Bulq to Mace Windu. One of them [Windu] created and mastered the form. The other [Bulq] attempted to master the form and failed to do so. Windu himself coments that "Vaapad mastered him", not the other way around.
And you think that Dooku mastering Makashi to the absolute highest degree still comes up short to Mace creating Vaapad?
Which one of them impresses me more? Windu, easily. One of them [Windu] created the undisputed deadliest lightsaber form, according to Yoda, at an incredibly young age. The other required decades to master a classic form [Dooku]. Both are impressive and both of them are among the finest swordsmen ever, but Windu is undoubtably more impressive.
It's similar to comparing Jimi Hendrix to Randy Rhoads. Both of them mastered the guitar and were world-class guitarists, but one of them achieved international recognition for making innovations and new methods of playing. That's why Hendrix is - and will forever be - a household name whilst Rhoads isn't.
As far as just saber work (taking out the ability to redirect darkside powers) you think that Mace is a better technical saber duelist than Dooku?
If by 'technical' you mean accurate and precise, no. Dooku's form is based on efficiency, precision, and accuracy moreso than any other form. Mace might rival him in that category if only for his ability to detect shatterpoints, but as far as forms themselves go? No.
But if you're referring to power and speed, yes, Mace's form is better.
Again, I didn't say you said it was impossible for Mace to lose; I said thats the way you're making it sound; also as if Dooku doesn't have what it take to finish him early.
Do I see Dooku taking him out early? Hell no. Dooku's form is based on precision and accuracy, most of his duels are long and drawn out. Mace is based on power and speed, usually indicating quick fights. Sidious - whose form is similar - couldn't overcome Windu, merely kept him on the defensive.
Also, you're last point sounds like you're basing it on a possible ABC argument, which you of all people should know, doesn't always work.
This isn't an ABC argument. Because the skills and techniques Mace used to overcome Sidious apply here with Dooku, and there is absolutely no indication that Dooku will have any better luck. It wasn't based on circumstance or 'luck-of-the-draw' that Windu beat Sidious, it was based on the properties of Windu's form that apply to all fights with dark siders.
Windu will win a lightsaber fight.