Originally posted by vader11
I think ROTS Dooku would beat AOTC Mace after a very hard fight, but I am not sure who would win if they are both the AOTC versions.
AOTC Mace would lose. ROTS Mace against ROTS Dooku would be a different fight. The events of Shatterpoint changed that. Dooku was still stronger in the force at that point, and that would most likely end up being the difference. AOTC, versions, Dooku would take it.
Unless if you submit to the theory that Palpatine threw the fight, it is obvious that Mace Windu would hand Tyranus his ass by Revenge of the Sith, or any sith lord in Star Wars except for more powerful incarnations of Palpatine. I mean, how is even a debate? Windu uses Vaapad and its superconducting loop, he has shatterpoint, which allowed him to defeat Dooku's master. The person that scared the shit out of Tyranus.
Now the question here is more interesting, because AotC Windu weaker than his RotS incarnation. Presumably, because he would have had three years to improve. Exactly how relevant is three years to someone, iirc, in his fifties? I guess that the combat experience of the war would advance Windu far faster than sparring with Jedi. Whereas Dooku, being in his 80's, is almost certainly beyond improvement and is probably weaker, or at best the same, by RotS.
The answer: You can't possibly know. We never see AotC Windu fight anyone except for a bunch of battle droids and Jango Fett.
(unless if you take the "on equal ground" w/Dooku quote as factoring Vaapad/shatterpoint, implying that Mace = Dooku by Dark Rendevous, and weaker by AotC. Which would mean that Windu improved suddenly and dramatically by RotS, enough to go to > Sidious)
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Unless if you submit to the theory that Palpatine threw the fight, it is obvious that Mace Windu would hand Tyranus his ass by Revenge of the Sith, or any sith lord in Star Wars except for more powerful incarnations of Palpatine. I mean, how is even a debate? Windu uses Vaapad and its superconducting loop, he has shatterpoint, which allowed him to defeat Dooku's master. The person that scared the shit out of Tyranus.
Not saying you're necessarily wrong. But your logic here would only work if we had a quote stating Sidious to be the best Lightsaber duelist of all previous Sith Lords. Or if we had concrete proof that Sidious was a superior lightsaber duelist to Count Dooku.
Being more powerful is completely different. End of the day Sidious was more powerful than Mace (in the force) but still got beaten by him in lightsaber combat.
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Now the question here is more interesting, because AotC Windu weaker than his RotS incarnation. Presumably, because he would have had three years to improve. Exactly how relevant is three years to someone, iirc, in his fifties? I guess that the combat experience of the war would advance Windu far faster than sparring with Jedi. Whereas Dooku, being in his 80's, is almost certainly beyond improvement and is probably weaker, or at best the same, by RotS.The answer: You can't possibly know. We never see AotC Windu fight anyone except for a bunch of battle droids and Jango Fett.
We do know Mace definetely improved after the events of Shatterpoint (after AOTC).
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
(unless if you take the "on equal ground" w/Dooku quote as factoring Vaapad/shatterpoint, implying that Mace = Dooku by Dark Rendevous, and weaker by AotC. Which would mean that Windu improved suddenly and dramatically by RotS, enough to go to > Sidious)
I personally think we have good reason to question this quote now. Considering we know from Clone Wars animation that Anakin was also at least Dooku's equal in Lightsaber combat by this point. Whilst the quote from DR says "From all the other Jedi perhaps ONLY Mace Windu.."
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Unless if you submit to the theory that Palpatine threw the fight, it is obvious that Mace Windu would hand Tyranus his ass by Revenge of the Sith, or any sith lord in Star Wars except for more powerful incarnations of Palpatine. I mean, how is even a debate? Windu uses Vaapad and its superconducting loop, he has shatterpoint, which allowed him to defeat Dooku's master. The person that scared the shit out of Tyranus.
Strange and stupid logic. Windu doesn't has an advantage against all of the Sith Lords (on his level, i mean). Windu can defeat Sidious only because of their lightsabers forms. Sidious uses Juyo (most of Sith Lords use it, so probably its the reason why people thinks that Mace > darksiders. Palpatine uses Juyo, Maul uses Juyo, Anakin uses Djem So + elements of Juyo.
Dooku is different. He is former master, and in lightsaber fight he still fight more like jedi master. His Makashi is perfect to lightsaber duels. He defeat Mace in the past, he EASILY defeat Sora Bulq (who gives Mace a nice fight). So there is no problems for Makashi user to fight Vaapad user.
And Dooku is still more skilled in the force. Yeah, Mace has a shatter point (but even with that he lost to Dooku in the past), but Dooku is much better in TK, force choke etc.
And after Haruun Kal, they are described as equals in terms of lightsaber skills. So before Dooku perhaps is better.
Strange and stupid logic. Windu doesn't has an advantage against all of the Sith Lords (on his level, i mean). Windu can defeat Sidious only because of their lightsabers forms.
Yes, because of Windu’s Vaapad. Of course.
Sidious uses Juyo (most of Sith Lords use it, so probably its the reason why people thinks that Mace > darksiders. Palpatine uses Juyo, Maul uses Juyo, Anakin uses Djem So + elements of Juyo.
When, anywhere, is it ever stated or implied that Mace’s vaapad only has an advantage when the enemy is using an arbitrary set of movements? Vaapad’s advantage is specifically against darksiders, it doesn’t matter whether they use Juyo or Japanese kendo. If this were the case, Sidious would have used another lightsaber form instead; after all, the use of juyo requires an advanced knowledge of the various lower lightsaber forms.
Dooku is different. He is former master,
No! Dooku is definitely the victor here, then. He was a former Jedi Master!
and in lightsaber fight he still fight more like jedi master.
Vaapad’s advantage against darksiders has nothing to do with the physical. Try again.
His Makashi is perfect to lightsaber duels.
So the **** what? Can he defeat Luke Skywalker as well, because Makashi is perfect for lightsaber dueling?
He defeat Mace in the past, he EASILY defeat Sora Bulq (who gives Mace a nice fight). So there is no problems for Makashi user to fight Vaapad user.
I’m sorry, but your logic is just horrible. By this reasoning, any ataru would have no problems against any makashi user because Yoda was able to outmatch Dooku in AotC. False cause fallacy. Sora would have been even more badly beaten had he not known vaapad, and Bulq never actually mastered the form.
And Dooku is still more skilled in the force.
Proof is required, of course, given that Windu redirected Palpatine’s lightning.
Yeah, Mace has a shatter point (but even with that he lost to Dooku in the past),
Because TPM Windu (ie, around the time when Dooku left) was far weaker than RotS Windu and Windu had neither completed vaapad, nor was Dooku a darksider.
but Dooku is much better in TK, force choke etc.
How do you know this? When has Dooku ever demonstrated particularly impressive TK? His best Force feat is choking RotS Obi Wan. Impressive, but hardly comparable to redirecting lightning, point blank, from the most powerful DLOTS in galactic history.
And after Haruun Kal, they are described as equals in terms of lightsaber skills. So before Dooku perhaps is better. [/B]
In terms of lightsaber skills when Force capabilities are factored in, Palpatine > Windu. Yet Windu still won, because of the inherent advantage of Vaapad over darksiders, an advantage that, contrary to your opinion, has jack shit to do with what lightsaber form the sith uses.
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
How do you know this? When has Dooku ever demonstrated particularly impressive TK? His best Force feat is choking RotS Obi Wan. Impressive, but hardly comparable to redirecting lightning, point blank, from the most powerful DLOTS in galactic history.
Well he redirected it with his lightsaber, while seriously struggling and screaming in the process.
Considering AOTC ObiWan was able to absorb Force Lightning with ease, from a far superior Force user, using his Lightsaber, it's not really that amazing that Mace could absorb and redirect it with great difficulty against an unarmed Sith Lord lying on his ass. With Mace standing right over him with his blade to his throat mind you.
As for impressive TK:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfIEdlba5ZQ
That's at least a dozen large stone pillars Dooku is lifting with ease.
Mace has great raw power in the force, but I very much doubt he could take out Obi-Wan with the same level of ease that Dooku did.
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
In terms of lightsaber skills when Force capabilities are factored in, Palpatine > Windu. Yet Windu still won, because of the inherent advantage of Vaapad over darksiders, an advantage that, contrary to your opinion, has jack shit to do with what lightsaber form the sith uses.
I don't know. A lot of people are questioning this supposed advantage Vapaad has over dark siders. But is there actually any canon statement which says "Vapaad is more effective against Dark siders"??
People have come to this conclusion from the description of the Mace vs Sidious fight in the ROTS novel. And yet in that fight what advantage did Vapaad give Mace over Sidious? Because IIRC they were equal in their Lightsaber duel with Vapaad aiding Mace.
Mace went on to win after searching for Sidious's shatterpoint.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Well he redirected it with his lightsaber, while seriously struggling and screaming in the process.Considering AOTC ObiWan was able to absorb Force Lightning with ease, from a far superior Force user, using his Lightsaber, it's not really that amazing that Mace could absorb and redirect it with great difficulty against an unarmed Sith Lord lying on his ass. With Mace standing right over him with his blade to his throat mind you.
Dooku's lightning is not really comparable to Sidious's. Like, at all. Sidious's Force lightning killed fifty clone troopers at once. Sidious's lightning was noticeably more difficult for Yoda to stop than Dooku's. Stopping it, even with a lightsaber, is certainly at least as impressive as Force choking a surprised Obi Wan.
As for impressive TK:[Link removed by necessity]
That's at least a dozen large stone pillars Dooku is lifting with ease.
Mace has great raw power in the force, but I very much doubt he could take out Obi-Wan with the same level of ease that Dooku did.
In addition to the questionable use of TCW for detailed analysis (can I use the clip to make the argument that Dooku's facial structure and voice magically changed in between AotC and RotS?), we have no idea how heavy those pillars were. Yet in TCW, Mace Windu is able to push an AT-TE off a cliff in the Battle of Ryloth, and land six blows on Kar Vastor before he could blink.
I don't know. A lot of people are questioning this supposed advantage Vapaad has over dark siders. But is there actually any canon statement which says "Vapaad is more effective against Dark siders"??
People have come to this conclusion from the description of the Mace vs Sidious fight in the ROTS novel. And yet in that fight what advantage did Vapaad give Mace over Sidious? Because IIRC they were equal in their Lightsaber duel with Vapaad aiding Mace.
Mace went on to win after searching for Sidious's shatterpoint.
A cited source on Wookieepedia mentions that it redirects the dark sider user's anger and hatred in one half of a superconducting loop, the other half being the user himself. Your observation is correct; Windu and Palpatine appeared to be equal with once Windu sunk fully into Vaapad, whereas Mace otherwise would probably have been outmatched. Shatterpoint is what tipped the scales in Mace's favor.
But if I am wrong, then that would simply lead to the conclusion that Mace is outright more powerful than Palpatine, which makes this debate even more one sided. 💃
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
When, anywhere, is it ever stated or implied that Mace’s vaapad only has an advantage when the enemy is using an arbitrary set of movements? Vaapad’s advantage is specifically against darksiders, it doesn’t matter whether they use Juyo or Japanese kendo. If this were the case, Sidious would have used another lightsaber form instead; after all, the use of juyo requires an advanced knowledge of the various lower lightsaber forms.
Smth about Juyo:
Juyo was described as the most vicious form of lightsaber combat, and was said to be filled with both fury and "malignant grace(...)Juyo's use was controversial among the Jedi Order, as many felt that Juyo violated the "there is no emotion, there is peace" tenet of the Jedi Code due to its requirement to fight under the guidance of controlled passion. The Sith had no such inhibition, and Darth Sidious went so far as to label it a "Sith style".
Vaapad:
The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_VII:_Juyo_/_Vaapad
"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center - And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt." - Stover, ROTS
And now your logic; for example:
When Anakin fight Dooku (ROTS duel) he uses hif fury and anger. But he was still jedi, so Vaapad won't be work? And few days later Vaapad will work, coz he fell into dark side?
Now mine:
Vaapad works against all who fight like a darksiders, and doesn't work against people who won't use these negative feelings.
So Mace can has an advantage against jedi Anakin, and don't has it against Sith Dooku.
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
[BHow do you know this? When has Dooku ever demonstrated particularly impressive TK? His best Force feat is choking RotS Obi Wan. Impressive, but hardly comparable to redirecting lightning, point blank, from the most powerful DLOTS in galactic history.[/B]
"He was recognized as a skilled master of telekinesis, and lectured on the subject as a Jedi Master."
"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."
I can't quote about Mace, coz i don't have english version of "Shatterpoint". But Mace has doubts about his force TK in this book.
Originally posted by Zett
Smth about Juyo:
Juyo was described as the most vicious form of lightsaber combat, and was said to be filled with both fury and "malignant grace(...)Juyo's use was controversial among the Jedi Order, as many felt that Juyo violated the "there is no emotion, there is peace" tenet of the Jedi Code due to its requirement to fight under the guidance of controlled passion. The Sith had no such inhibition, and Darth Sidious went so far as to label it a "Sith style".Vaapad:
The practitioner of Vaapad would accept the fury of their opponent, transforming them into one half of a superconducting loop, with the other half being the power of darkness inherent in the opponent.[have to remove link]
"He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center - And let it fountain out again.
He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt." - Stover, ROTSAnd now your logic; for example:
When Anakin fight Dooku (ROTS duel) he uses hif fury and anger. But he was still jedi, so Vaapad won't be work? And few days later Vaapad will work, coz he fell into dark side?
Anakin during the duel with Dooku appeared to be using the dark side. If he was, then yes, it would work. If not, then no, it wouldn't. Anakin was technically still a Jedi, but obviously, being or not being part of a group does not directly, magically change the actual effectiveness of the technique. Vaapad works against people using the dark side, whether you call them "Jedi using the dark side for one fight" or "evil bastard sith".
Now mine:
Vaapad works against all who fight like a darksiders, and doesn't work against people who won't use these negative feelings.
So Mace can has an advantage against jedi Anakin, and don't has it against Sith Dooku.
Wait...what?
Are you arguing that Dooku doesn't use negative feelings in a fight? That he doesn't harness his rage and anger after becoming Darth Tyranus? That he's secretly a good guy who rejects the sith ways?
...
"He was recognized as a skilled master of telekinesis, and lectured on the subject as a Jedi Master."
How does this prove anything? He was a "skilled master", so was Obi Wan (and Coleman Trebor). He lectured on the subject; Cindralic lectured on lightsaber combat; he was the blademaster, and Vader fought him one handed while choking a padawan.
"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student! Our greatest failure."
Windu was not a student anymore in any sense, and IIRC this is referring to the TPM timeframe.
I can't quote about Mace, coz i don't have english version of "Shatterpoint". But Mace has doubts about his force TK in this book.
Mace is a humble guy. Dooku is the exact opposite. But none of your quotes, honestly, make a case for putting Dooku above Windu. They simply vaguely define him as "skilled" and "our greatest student".
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Dooku's lightning is not really comparable to Sidious's. Like, at all. Sidious's Force lightning killed fifty clone troopers at once. Sidious's lightning was noticeably more difficult for Yoda to stop than Dooku's. Stopping it, even with a lightsaber, is certainly at least as impressive as Force choking a surprised Obi Wan.
Ok I do realise Sidious is more powerful than Dooku. As is his Force Lightning. But I think you may be exaggerating the difference.
Dooku's Lightning is "weaker" but I would not go as far as saying it is completely weak in comparison. Dooku's FL took out 3 armed nightsisters! 3 of them all armed! Oh and one of them was frigging Ventress! Thats not weak by anyone's standards.
Oh and of course Yoda deflected Dooku's Lightning more easily than Sidious's because we know Sidious's is simply more powerful. However Yoda was able to deflect both, and according to the AOTC novel, he was deflecting Dooku's Lightning "Far from easily"
So again when AOTC Obi-Wan (who is not even a match for Kit Fisto at this point) can easily catch Dooku's Force Lightning with his Saber, then what on Earth makes you think Count Dooku could not do the same with his Saber against Sidious's Lightning (while shouting and screaming mind you).
Because I promise you the difference in Force powers between Dooku and AOTC Obi-Wan is much much greater than the difference in Force powers between Sidious and Dooku. So that's just a completely unfounded conclusion.
And no I don't see any evidence Mace could take out ROTS Obi-Wan anywhere near as easily with the Force as Count Dooku did. Let alone 3 nightsisters including Ventress.
In fact Mace faced Ventress in Schism, and even though he was of course completely overpowering her, she managed to escape easily. If he could simply grab her with the force I'm sure he would have.
Oh yeah Dooku also took out Sora Bulq with the Force easily. Again Mace faced Sora Bulq, and was not able to stop him anywhere near as easily.
Plus there's a quote in Dark Rendezvous saying from everyone in the Jedi Temple Dooku was "Most learned in the ways of the Force."
So all evidence suggests that despite Mace's clear and obvious raw power in the force, his skill at using it does not match Count Dooku's.
Edit- Oh and Lol at Obi-Wan being surprised! He was surprised alrite, by how much more powerful Dooku was in the Force than him!
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
In addition to the questionable use of TCW for detailed analysis (can I use the clip to make the argument that Dooku's facial structure and voice magically changed in between AotC and RotS?), we have no idea how heavy those pillars were. Yet in TCW, Mace Windu is able to push an AT-TE off a cliff in the Battle of Ryloth, and land six blows on Kar Vastor before he could blink.
LOL What are you talking about?? CW Animation is T-Canon. That means more canon than anything except the films themselves. Its created and executive produced by Lucas himself.
Anyway pushing an AT-TE <<<< Lifting a dozen+ Stone pillars with ease (and keeping them levitated with ease).
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
A cited source on Wookieepedia mentions that it redirects the dark sider user's anger and hatred in one half of a superconducting loop, the other half being the user himself. Your observation is correct; Windu and Palpatine appeared to be equal with once Windu sunk fully into Vaapad, whereas Mace otherwise would probably have been outmatched. Shatterpoint is what tipped the scales in Mace's favor.But if I am wrong, then that would simply lead to the conclusion that Mace is outright more powerful than Palpatine, which makes this debate even more one sided. 💃
Again looking for a canon source that says Vapaad specifically gives an advantage over dark siders, or nullifies the dark siders abilitys/advantages. The superconducting loop sounds metaphorical. A state of mind perhaps.
Theres also an extract of Obi-Wans last fight with Maul saying Maul was feeding of Obi-Wan's anger. But are we really supposed to believe that Maul can drain the power of anyone using the darkside, or giving in to their anger?? Of course not. It's obviously metaphorical.
Anyway I also believe Mace and Sidious were equal in Sabers but Shatterpoint and/or Mace's experience gave him the edge.
But don't get too excited. Mace having the edge over Sidious in Saber combat does not make him "more powerful."
The Emporer is clearly more powerful in the force.
Not that I agree with everything Zett is saying but just to address a couple of points you made to him:
Originally posted by Rogue GladiatorAre you arguing that Dooku doesn't use negative feelings in a fight? That he doesn't harness his rage and anger after becoming Darth Tyranus? That he's secretly a good guy who rejects the sith ways?
He means his fencing form isn't one to really strike out with anger and fury. Makashi is a very elegant form.
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
Windu was not a student anymore in any sense, and IIRC this is referring to the TPM timeframe.
Lol and Dooku was a student? He's older than Mace. The quote is from Dark Rendezvous. And talking about the greatest student of the temple but at the time of DR. Dooku is more skilled and knowledgeable in the Force than Mace. Period. But I admit Mace's Raw Power in the Force is probably on Par with Dooku's. And would probably overpower the Good Count (eventually) in Saber Combat as well.
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
I'll respond to the rest of your post later, but...
Don't worry pal. Respond in your own time.
Originally posted by Rogue Gladiator
...eh? 😕
Well yeah that's kind of common sense to me.
Would it be easier for you to Push 100kg off a cliff, or to lift and keep holding up 100kg?? There's a huge difference in those 2 feats. Huge.
In fact Savage Opress (before his force rage boost) was no match for Dooku in the Force and he pushed off Obi-Wan and Anakin's ship off a cliff with just one hand 😉
Vaapad believers...
This is what Vaapad is about:
"Vaapad was described as more than a fighting style; it was a state of mind that led through the penumbra of the dark side, requiring the user to enjoy the fight, and relish the satisfaction of winning."
Which means it can be used anytime against whoever you want.
This is why Windu used it.
"Jedi Master Mace Windu, who developed Vaapad along with Weequay Jedi Sora Bulq,[9] stated that Vaapad was an answer for his own weakness, allowing him to channel his own internal darkness into something positive."
Suitable style for his personality.
I'm not sure how Vaapad is going to work here. Mace only successfully used it once, and that was agaisnt Sidious. During that battle Mace had more inner darkness than ever, going up against the most powerful Sith in history. As according to the novel he was put at his most powerful ever. Dooku does not have the rage that Sidious has, not even close. Mace doesn't have the same aggression as he did agaisnt Sidious. Mace won't have much if any to feed on from Dooku.
Vaapad didn't work agaisnt Sora Bulq or Deepa Bilaba so why would it work here when both of them especially Sora had more rage than Dooku.
In th end I say Dooku in all forms. AOTC and ROTS. It's a very close fight though.