Turkey in the EU?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness

Which mass graves?

http://www.geocities.com/t_volunteer/cyprus/photo6.htm

It's a very biased site, at least on first impression but their photo's are still real.

I don't think UK should be in the EU at all, but that is my personal thought. Turkey should get into EU, at some point. As soon as it stops calling part of Cyprus, ''Turkish Republic of Northen Cyprus'', recognizes Armenian genocide, and stops death penalty (if it has not already), and also more rights for the religious non-muslim minorities.

Completely agree, I just think that Cyprus especially and even the EU in general should do something in return. Blockading Turkish trading and Cyprus vetoing everything that could help the Turks when they can isn't really helping the situation.

However, as I mention in the first post, Nicolas Sarkozy, sad that he does not believe Turkey should be in the EU, ever. He said something along the lines of ''If we border with Iran, should be make Iran join EU too?''

Is that fair enough? Or is that little far fetched from Nicolas Sarkozy?

It's an idiotic statement but it gets him votes, so he's smart for making it. Turkey unlike Iran actually has parts in Europe, Turkey unlike Iran is a secular state and Turkey unlike Iran has a relatively stable country with a growing economy.

Turkey isn't ready at this moment in time, but excluding them forever is just limiting the power of the EU, and stupid. I do think he realizes that, but he probably thinks that saying things like that will make him popular now, can get him votes now and he knows that by the time Turkey is ready to join the EU things will have changed enough for him to get back on his statement or he that is he already gone from office.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Read some history, will you? Maybe starting from Ottoman Empire. Your comments, like this one, are giving me a nose bleed.

Maybe you simply can't stand to have a majority Muslim nation near Europe? Your Islam bashing has probably clogged all my synapses and made me a drone.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Is that fair enough? Or is that little far fetched from Nicolas Sarkozy?

Originally posted by Fishy
It's an idiotic statement but it gets him votes, so he's smart for making it. Turkey unlike Iran actually has parts in Europe, Turkey unlike Iran is a secular state and Turkey unlike Iran has a relatively stable country with a growing economy.

Turkey isn't ready at this moment in time, but excluding them forever is just limiting the power of the EU, and stupid. I do think he realizes that, but he probably thinks that saying things like that will make him popular now, can get him votes now and he knows that by the time Turkey is ready to join the EU things will have changed enough for him to get back on his statement or he that is he already gone from office.

I agree with Fishy Sarkozy just wanted to cash in electorally on the situation in France last summer. Too bad it actually worked.

Originally posted by Fire
I agree with Fishy Sarkozy just wanted to cast in electorally on the situation in France last summer. Too bad it actually worked.

I'm not to sure about that, Royal didn't really seem like a good alternative really. Of course this situation can never help relations between Turkey and Europe but as long as Sarkozy is willing to improve relations with Turkey and increase our economical partnership then that can eventually lead to them joining the Union anyway.

you're right Royal didn't give a decent alternative. But anything would have been better than Sarkozy's right wing agenda.

Still, Sarkozy isn't going to get very far badmouthing Turkey's EU bid knowing the importance of that topic in Turkey.

Originally posted by Fire
you're right Royal didn't give a decent alternative. But anything would have been better than Sarkozy's right wing agenda.

Economically this is the best for France at least... Socially speaking I don't know. I know the problems in France have gotten far to far, and they need somebody tough to handle the situation instead of ignoring it. I don't know enough about Sarkozy his plans to know if he can actually fix this though. If he really just wants to beat up rioters and throw them out of the country then he still won't achieve shit. Except for being a moron.

I hope he is willing to invest in all of those people that have it hard now and is willing to give them good schooling and try to create more jobs there, if he wants to be hard on those that still don't take their chances then and screw up anyways that's fine with me. As long as he creates the chances first.

Originally posted by Alliance
Still, Sarkozy isn't going to get very far badmouthing Turkey's EU bid knowing the importance of that topic in Turkey.

He doesn't really care about Turkey.. His primary interest is the power in France, and he has that now. I do think he will moderate his tone now though and try to get closer to the Turks he has said he wants to work in many area's with them, just not let them join the Union. Turkey won't like this, and the people will stop liking the EU even more then they already have. It can however in the future lead to Turkey joining the Union. Economical partnership is after all the reason the Union was created in the first place.

It's the later part I fear. But that's probably my socialistic reflex.

Alliance what do you mean exactly?

Originally posted by Fire
It's the later part I fear. But that's probably my socialistic reflex.

Alliance what do you mean exactly?

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt at the moment, I'll just wait and see... At least the riots after he was elected weren't committed by poor foreigners, but instead by left winged extremists/communists/anarchists, that's a good sign already.

It shows that the people that were against him most accepted the democracy and are willing to let him do what he thinks needs to be done. If he would just show him that their trust in him is deserved then perhaps this entire situation can turn out the right way... But we'll just have to wait and see...

Originally posted by Fishy
He doesn't really care about Turkey.. His primary interest is the power in France

I know, and this answers fire too, he may say sh*t like this for political reasons, but people actually take offense to it. The EU requires some sort of supranationalist thinking to be maintained. If all that interests him is political power in France, he should not be President of an EU nation.

Using the US as an example, if a president is campaigning in Chicago and badmouths how dirty and slimy New York is, He may win votes in Chicago, but he's going to lose votes in New York. Since the preseident actually has a role in governing both if he's elected, he's not doing anyone favors except himself.

Its not a DIRECT comparison, but I feel it has important similarities.

Originally posted by Alliance
I know, and this answers fire too, he may say sh*t like this for political reasons, but people actually take offense to it. The EU requires some sort of supranationalist thinking to be maintained. If all that interests him is political power in France, he should not be President of an EU nation.

Using the US as an example, if a president is campaigning in Chicago and badmouths how dirty and slimy New York is, He may win votes in Chicago, but he's going to lose votes in New York. Since the preseident actually has a role in governing both if he's elected, he's not doing anyone favors except himself.

Its not a DIRECT comparison, but I feel it has important similarities.

Well they have some, but not really a like.

Sarkozy is the president of France, he does what he thinks is best for France he however also wants to invest in Europe and has said so already. He has made plans for improving French relations with Europe, and he is definitely more pro-Europe, pro-America then most Frenchman.

Of course somebody like him wouldn't do real good at the negotiating tables for Turkey to join the Union. However he has said he is willing to work better with Turkey then we are doing now. I believe the same thing was said by either Blair or Merkel not entirely sure...

This will still benefit relations and get Turkey in eventually. Of course it might hurt the relations at first, but I think we can all agree that Turkey won't join any time soon anyway. And if both sides are willing to look at the longer run for the EU membership status and the immediate future for improved trading we should be able to accomplish a lot.

Ok...not the best analogy...but you got my point...I wanted to add an addendum to my post about how my analogy sucked, but I didn't want to burn my quesadilla.

Originally posted by Alliance
Ok...not the best analogy...but you got my point...I wanted to add an addendum to my post about how my analogy sucked, but I didn't want to burn my quesadilla.

Yeah I get your point...

NO!! maybe in time, europe is growing to quickly and the standard of living is being pulled down by these backwater countries

However, as I mention in the first post, Nicolas Sarkozy, sad that he does not believe Turkey should be in the EU, ever. He said something along the lines of ''If we border with Iran, should be make Iran join EU too?''

Far fetched. Iran has never had any claims to Europe.

Originally posted by Alliance
I know, and this answers fire too, he may say sh*t like this for political reasons, but people actually take offense to it. The EU requires some sort of supranationalist thinking to be maintained. If all that interests him is political power in France, he should not be President of an EU nation.

Using the US as an example, if a president is campaigning in Chicago and badmouths how dirty and slimy New York is, He may win votes in Chicago, but he's going to lose votes in New York. Since the preseident actually has a role in governing both if he's elected, he's not doing anyone favors except himself.

Its not a DIRECT comparison, but I feel it has important similarities.

As you said yourself your comparison is flawed in a number of ways.

A) you can't compare the US with the EU in this way. The US forms one nation, one which has a high degree of federalization, where as the EU is a Union. Yes it is partly supranationalistic, but in the end it still is a union of sovereign and independent states.

B) Because of point A Sarkozy doesn't have to care about what people in Spain, Bulgaria, Poland, Holland or wherever think of him. They can't vote for him anyway. There are enough countries who have elected leaders with anti-european programs before. It's sad but it happens.

C) Turkey is not a part of the EU anyway. So even if all Europeans where allowed to vote for him he wouldn't be bad mounting people within the union. Although many wouldn't like it.

In conclusion: God knows I'd love nothing more than to see the European Union become more of nation and less of a union. With direct elections for a European president and stuff, but it just ain't gonna happen any time soon.

PS: I'm not as optimistic about Sarkozy as Fishy is. However he did score points with me for nominating an experienced socialist as secretary of state.

After reading up about the US House of Representatives I think that could make for a better comparison.

Originally posted by Fishy
http://www.geocities.com/t_volunteer/cyprus/photo6.htm

It's a very biased site, at least on first impression but their photo's are still real.

Completely agree, I just think that Cyprus especially and even the EU in general should do something in return. Blockading Turkish trading and Cyprus vetoing everything that could help the Turks when they can isn't really helping the situation.

It's an idiotic statement but it gets him votes, so he's smart for making it. Turkey unlike Iran actually has parts in Europe, Turkey unlike Iran is a secular state and Turkey unlike Iran has a relatively stable country with a growing economy.

Turkey isn't ready at this moment in time, but excluding them forever is just limiting the power of the EU, and stupid. I do think he realizes that, but he probably thinks that saying things like that will make him popular now, can get him votes now and he knows that by the time Turkey is ready to join the EU things will have changed enough for him to get back on his statement or he that is he already gone from office.

He is a tiny bit off for me, Sarkozy is, I don't know why. Its too early to judge him, but I am not as enthusiastic about him at all.

What some people in France gave impression is that one of the reasons he was voted was because ''there was no other good option'' and ''he is brutally honest''.

I do suspect when the time comes, France might generally oppose turkey into EU, regardless whos at the top - although I could be mistaken.

Does anyone know how the Turkish people generally feel in regards to EU, and if they want in?

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
He is a tiny bit off for me, Sarkozy is, I don't know why. Its too early to judge him, but I am not as enthusiastic about him at all.

What some people in France gave impression is that one of the reasons he was voted was because ''there was no other good option'' and ''he is brutally honest''.

I do suspect when the time comes, France might generally oppose turkey into EU, regardless whos at the top - although I could be mistaken.

Does anyone know how the Turkish people generally feel in regards to EU, and if they want in?

At the moment no French politician could vote for Turkey in the union. It would cost them to much vote's, so you are right it would take a lot of time before France would say yes to Turkey in the union.

As for the Turks themselves, I'm not sure the news here reports that the enthusiasm amongst them is dropping rapidly. A few years ago almost all of them wanted to join the Union now only half still really wants too and most of them are not to happy about their chances... All this crap about Turkey joining the Union and the problems it's causing certainly isn't making the EU popular in Turkey.

Europe fought to keep the Ottomans out ; why let them in now ??