They're out of whack. Stats can be used for support, but if your entire argument hinges around it, don't expect people to take you seriously. I'm not paying attention to the argument, I don't know who's using the stats: Nai or AC, but Nai pointed out a lot of major flaws in the statistics themselves; logic applies. Mace has a Force grip stat of +10 and Darth Sidious has one of +12? Bullshit. Yoda +8 telepathy and Palpatine +10? Bullshit. Mace with +16 battlemind and Yoda with +11? Bullshit.
Statistics (in most cases) = bullshit.
Ok, i must say this kind of statistics are controversial, but I think we can still analyse them as a reference. Not a definitly true for sure, but can be one extra data to analyze. By the way
Mace has a Force grip stat of +10 and Darth Sidious has one of +12? Bullshit. Yoda +8 telepathy and Palpatine +10? Bullshit. Mace with +16 battlemind and Yoda with +11? Bullshit
So? Sidious still has a Force Grip 20% more powerful. Still, as i said, it just a reference... Also, why can't palpatine to have a higher telepathy then yoda? Hadn't Palpatine to use this technique to communicate with Anakin in ROTS when he was quite far from him?
And about battlemind, i think quite logical windu having a higher one then yoda. Wasn't the battlemind ability one of the abilities that made windu to win against sidious? Besides, he could have practised this power a lot due to his vaadpad...
Anyway, I think people here are using too much this states, i think they have some mistakes that are not very canon...
So? Sidious still has a Force Grip 20% more powerful.
Darth "I'm-the-uber-Sith" Sidious having a twenty percent greater Force Grip (dark side power) than Jedi Master Mace Windu? Yeah, I see a big problem. I understand that Windu's use of Vaapad allows him to skirt on the edge of the light side lexicon of powers and touch the dark side, but that is utter bullshit. He shouldn't have anything close to the dark side control that any decent Sith Lord has.
Still, as i said, it just a reference... Also, why can't palpatine to have a higher telepathy then yoda?
The fact that the two were seemingly equal makes this hard to swallow for me. That's a massive disparity between two close rivals, especially with telepathy being a neutral power.
Hadn't Palpatine to use this technique to communicate with Anakin in ROTS when he was quite far from him?
Point being: the two should have equal - or if not - damn close telepathic ability.
And about battlemind, i think quite logical windu having a higher one then yoda.
I don't, since Mace point-blank tells Palpatine in Dark Rendezvous that he isn't Yoda's equal as a diplomat or a warrior.
Wasn't the battlemind ability one of the abilities that made windu to win against sidious?
No, that would be Vaapad and Shatterpoint.
Besides, he could have practised this power a lot due to his vaadpad...
...Which makes no sense.
Originally posted by Gideon
They're out of whack. Stats can be used for support, but if your entire argument hinges around it, don't expect people to take you seriously. I'm not paying attention to the argument, I don't know who's using the stats: Nai or AC, but Nai pointed out a lot of major flaws in the statistics themselves; logic applies. Mace has a Force grip stat of +10 and Darth Sidious has one of +12? Bullshit. Yoda +8 telepathy and Palpatine +10? Bullshit. Mace with +16 battlemind and Yoda with +11? Bullshit.Statistics (in most cases) = bullshit.
Well maybe you should have actually read my post to begin with before posting. My argument is Malak is stronger then Exar Kun, I back this up with the fact that he's called nearly unstoppable by the Star Wars Databank, that he's the most powerful dark force in the known galaxy at the time (much like Kun), was said by the WotC article to have devastating dark side ability, and he has a 35,000 year old dark side space station drawing energy from a star powering him up a space station that drains and kills beings not capable of handling it. The stats supplement this and further provide insight into Malaks overall ability, and what exactly makes him better then Kun. If Malak is more powerful then Kun, then that makes Revan inturn also stronger.
As for the website in which you complaining about in you post its:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/sw20050714a
Which as I said is largely noncanon as it contradicts the PotJ sourcbook, the DSSB sourcebook, the ROTS novel and the ROTS movie. Thus rendering those stats for those characters non canon (something I delved into deeper other post) as for why I'm using them IMO its far better to use them (when they have no inconsistency which Malaks largely don't) then to go on for pages about "OMG kun did this feat!111! Revan did this feat11111!!1 somebody said this about exar!!!!Somebody called revan uber!"
I'll post this again for those who don't seem to want to read:
Advent:
I see no reason as to why stats cannot be used to support an argument (as long as there are no contradictions between the stats, and higher sources [i.e. Sidious' 'move object' skill is lower than Vader's, as pointed out, but that doesn't dismiss the rest as a whole], and the argument has merit behind it).Are game mechanics (video games or rpg) canon? For example, does a rpg damage rating like "7d" mean anything? If a C-canon source (like a novel or reference book) contradicts what the game mechanics say, will the book win out?
Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another. Because RPGs use dice, there is always the element of random chance involved, which isn't quite applicable to a book.
But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison.
Conversely, I think it would be a determinent if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction. - Leland Chee [Tasty Taste], page 37 of Holocron continuity database questions.
So tell me again: whats wrong with my argument?
Styles, Malak isn't anywhere near as powerful as Kun. Or maybe NEAR him but Kun is his superior in every way shape and form. Malak needs the use of the Star Forge to be labeled invincible and Revan is still stronger. Kun himself is miles ahead of everybody during his time. His force abilities are apparently beyond Malak's. I don't know where you get this Malak is stronger than Kun stuff.
Well maybe you should have actually read my post to begin with before posting.
I love it when you play the prick card with me, Ac. All the more funny when I embarrass you by pointing out your stupid mistakes. Here's my statement:
I'm not paying attention to the argument, I don't know who's using the stats: Nai or AC, but Nai pointed out a lot of major flaws in the statistics themselves; logic applies.
Translation: I don't give a shit about your argument. I don't give a shit about the entire debate in question. I explicitly stated that, and I also said that I "haven't been paying attention" to the debate, which is why I didn't point the finger at you or Nai. I posted to point out that the stats can be absolute bullshit.
So tell me again: whats wrong with my argument?
I didn't say anything was wrong with it, Ac. Maybe you should stop dishing out advice about reading and learn to do it yourself?
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Since I don't have the stats for Revan (do you ? Please post them) and we don't know [i]how Revan defeated Malak, this would be again a flawed conclusion. Technically Revan still had all his weapons (grenades for example) and other stuff (health packs, stimulants, implants) to deal with Malak not to notice that he was most likely aided by Bastilla's Battle Meditation. [/I]Self ownage.
Wait. You accept that Revan is not the most powerful Jedi ever based on the fact that he could have done all with his gimmicks and support from Bastilla and just after that...
And you don't even have to be at a level 20 (Malaks level) to beat Malak, I can beat him with a level 17 or 18 Revan with the right stats, the point is on paper, which is what we normally go off of in debates like this: Malak is stronger then Exar Kun, where as Revan whom after his duel with Malak gets an unsubstantiated power up from "remembering" all his dark side knowledge, which was said by Bane that even Sith Lords wouldn't even attempt half the shit he knew. Other then that we can tell it was a pretty damn clean victory because Malak wouldn't admit his inferiority to someone who got a lucky shot with a blaster, and he demands to fight the duel in ancient Sith traditions.
...you come back to me with that here ? Can't you even keep your damn argument consistant five lines ?
May I point your logical mistake again:
- Malak is stronger than Kun because he was boosted beyond imagination by the Star Forge. Notice how that doesn't put him in an own league compared to Kun.
- now Revan with unknown amount of support (stuff he had, Bastila) managed to defeat that boosted version of Malak
Can you again explain to me how, from this facts, you draw the conclusion that Revan must be stronger than Exar Kun ? And ancient Sith traditions ? You're talking about backstabbing bastards like Sadow ? Not to mention that Revan at this point was, you know, no Sith.
But after all that does that make Revan more powerful then Yoda? No. And which stats are you using for Yoda? I'm going by the PoTJ stats and he'd very much beat Revan. ANd the stats of the website for Yoda don't make sense as he looses a number of abilities he performs in the movies: dissipate energy, aware, burst of speed, his knowledge of the Jedi goes down, his knowledge of the mean streets of Coruscant goes down as well, he completely looses the ability to disguise himself, he's no longer persuasive, he forgets how to make sabers a bit, Other then that he generally becomes weaker.
The same website somehow lists the very same stats you've posted for Kun and Malak here ? What conclusion shall I draw from that fact. Not to mention that this website which doesn't make sense is made by the same people who assign those uber stats to the SW characters. That's if we're both talking about the official WotC page.
Unless your gonna sti here and expect me to believe Yoda became a complete puss in three years those stats "on the website" are rendered irrelevant and uncanon since the contradict the ROTS novel and allow Revan to be seemingly more powerful then Yoda and allows ALOT of others to come close to his power, which was defined as being almost head and heels above the other Jedi of the time. And statistically Sidious should have whipped Yoda's ass, but that didn't happen and Yoda not only disarmed him but stopped and pushed back his force attacks and blew him across the room.
The website is still done by the same people who do all that nice little stats you like so much. It's nice that you did spot the logic mistakes there. So can we now agree on the fact that those stats are absolutely stupid ?
On further inspection those website stats (Hereos and Villians for ROTS) are ridicules, they're not congruent with the DSSB or the PotJ and they're not congruent with the canon the movie or the novel, except for Windu's and Grevious.
Yeah. Wow. And they are still released by the same people who are doing the DSSB and the POTJ books. Those are the very same stats Mr. Chee checks so often to determine what characters might be able to do *cough*
Remeber this line:Conversely, I think it would be a determinant if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction.
Meaning, he'd be able to beat Malak, meaning he's still stronger then Revan, who with all his dark side knowledge doesn't account for 700 years of Jedi Knowledge. Meaning theres no contradiction.
The stats for Kun are also pretty much f*cked up based on what he demonstrates in the comics / books. Sorry. The stats are simply useless.
His wisdom has to be high for his force powers to be that strong (24 in FL) along with the SF boosting him, thus his wisdom would be high, as for intelligence its done based on whats displayed by the character, Exar displays more intelligence then Malak thus its higher.
Yay. His wisdom has to be high for his force powers to be that strong. Wow. That's a real good explanation to base his actual stat in "wisdom" on. Is that also true for his "charisma" ? Oh those charming creatures who don't have a jaw...
No, everything he showed is there most of his mundane powers are covered under "Sith Sorcery" which is basically "Sith Magic".
And either you didn't manage to post that for Kun or they did forget it, because I don't see any "Sith Sorcery" in the stats you've posted for Kun.
Because Malak didn't have all of Revans knowledge, he had NEVER been to Malachor and didn't even know there was an academy there, and whos to say Revan shared everything with his apprentice? Why would he?
Oh right. Revan kept Malachor a secret from Malak for 3 years ? I totally believe that. He did share the knowledge about the Star Forge with Malak (obviously so much that Malak later was able to use it with higher efficiency) but he should have kept certain knowledge away from Malak ? Questionable.
Exactly, and as I said it'd be impossible for Exar to be 50% higher then Malak: Your original argument.
Please don't hide your lack of education, oh genious to whom 150 % of 15 are 30.
All those are from that shitty website version which contradict the canon. Based on those stats Anakin could get effectively owned by any member of the council and people like Cay Qel Droma could give him a run for his money. They are horrid.
Those people are making the same stuff you're trying to base your argument on. So either the website and the stats are questionable or both should be treated as viable sources. You don't get one without the other. And just for reference: The stats (aside from the comment of Leland Chee on the question) have always been considered to be not canon.
Thats why Kuns ridiculously high force defense is rendered uncanon, and needs to be nerfed because that make him stronger then Empire Era Sidious. Which is BS, even Malak being boosted by the Star Forge can only muster a 15 in which Sidious in TMP is still stronger. If there are discrepancies with a few individual stats you adjust them based on common sense, like Vaders "move object" being higher then Empire Era Palpatines in that case Sidious who has lifted thousand pound+ Senate pods with ease and held them in stasis tossed them all the while laughing having the time of his life would logical be higher then Vaders. Again that still doesn't disprove then argument at hand or the medium.
Dude. Leland Chee said those stats are not assigned randomly. As the flaws in all of them are obvious, he was obviously wrong with that statement. If I have to "adjust stats" based on common sense, then I could do that to every character (even Malak). Either you accept anything or you accept nothing. This is no"pick what you like from one source and declare the rest doesn't fit" contest. Either everything or nothing.
I could just say that Kun's amulet did just boost his force defence. Or that the second amulet did. Or that his great-grandmother was an Ysalamiri. As those stats all are randomly assigned.
He doesn't have any due to everyone playing a different version of him.
Holy crap. So he could have the same stats like Exar Kun and still win that battle with Malak ? Wait. You said yourself you can beat Malak with a level 17 or 18 Revan. Damn. So as I said: Pointless argumentation attempt.
This had been handled and I'd like you to prove Bastila was boosting Revan considering you gain no active affects after she starts, the game makes no mention of it, the story makes no mention of it, Bastila was focusing her attention on the fleet battle and finally she's scared to be even in the same room as Malak who would she try to exert her will on him or even put her presence in a battle with such heated emotions going on?
You know how Battle Meditation works, right ?
It changes the outcome of a complete battle. The battle was going on not only outside but also inside the SF. So to change the outcome, Bastila would have needed to affect both: The fleet battle and the battle outside. Hell...why would she even focus on the battle outside when the most important fight was happening inside of the SF ?
And please tell me how Revan should have been able to defeat Malak clearly if Malak has those stats without any help from outside ?
So what are they fighting naked? Revan would get his robes and utility belt (something all Jedi carry) why can he dose up on stims or carry a health pack (which is standard equipment according to the PotJ)
Yeah. Right. That's the way to do VS fights. Then I guess we give Kun several thousand Massassi warriors and let him start the entire fight on board of Sadow's ship. He toasts the corresponding sun system - end of debate. Really...Jedi are always wearing stims in their utility belts and of course somebody can use a health pack while trying to fend off a force using lightsaber wielder. Why don't we just assume that all KotoR characters can resist multiple lightsaber hits right in their face (happens in the game) or that they have an 80 % chance (at least) to hit their opponent with every strike.
Dooku should blow him away hence why Anakins stats on that website are bull shit and uncanon
May I once more point out how those stats are coming from the same people whose stuff you're trying to use as base for your "argument" ?
Not canon.
Dude. As you used the very same stats which say so to "proof" that Kun is below Malak, I might call that "self ownage".
Been addressed. It proofs Revan is stronger since:A. Malak acknowledges his power and him to be the superior
B. Revan after that regains his old memories making him even stronger.
A. I didn't hear him saying "Despite of the fact that my power increased tenfold by using the Star Forge, you kicked the living shit out of me, Master." For a reason maybe ? Of course he acknowledges to be Revan's inferior. Because he lies on the ground and is about to die. How that happened ? We don't know.
B. Erm. Malak just said he was stronger than ever before when he was a Jedi. So I doubt that his former knowledge (when we don't know how much of it he regained during the events shown in KotoR) would have made him much stronger. Not that it would matter as we still don't know how he did beat Malak.
Sure thing Nai, I'll do that when you stop nit picking with irrelevant bullshit.
Irrelevant bullshit ? You mean like that stats ? Ah yes. Thanks.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nai, I hope you're not suggesting that Revan beat Malak with help? They had an "EPIC DUEL", 1 on 1, and Revan bested him. It's clear they used sabers at some point but what kind of help are you referring to?
Using the term "help" I was refering to two things:
a) The items you can find during the game. You can boost your in game stats through items (lightsaber gems, artifacts, implants etc.) or stimulants. You can use healthpacks to heal yourself and grenades to do all kind of nasty stuff to your enemies.
b) There is still the possibility that Bastila's Battle Meditation did also affect Revan during his duel with Malak as the technique is specifically designed to influence the outcome of an entire battle.
Of course Revan had a 1on1 against Malak and at a certain point they also used lightsabers. But aside of that ? Technically Revan could have entered the duel with all kind of stuff to boost his natural abilities (among that possibly the Battle Meditation of Bastila), just to toss a nice pile of explosives at Malak, distract him somehow and finally finish him with the lightsaber.
And notice how that I don't consider that part to be important. The important point here is that those stats are (mostly) randomly assigned bullshit. Hence nothing you can base an argument on. That's not even talking about the stupid idea to use some argument which basically says: "Because A (Revan) > B (Malak), and B (Malak based on stats) > C (Kun) we can conclude that A (Revan) > C (Kun)". Especially stupid if you base that on shitty stats and a duel featuring entirely unknown circumstances, since we don't know how Revan did beat Malak. Because, and that's a nother flaw in that little argument, if you go by Malak's stats he's virtually unstoppable.
Not to mention that because of the effect of random added by using a dice based system, Kun could still beat Malak even based on that stats.
Or to be more precise:
Kun: Attack (max) +21 / Defence 26
Malak: Attack (max) +23 / Defence 26
Damage:
Kun: 2 x (5d8+3) (double-bladed lightsaber) per hit
Malak: 7d8+5 per hit
Damage Reduction:
Kun - armor stats:
Damage Reduction: 10
Max Dex Bonus: +3
Armor Check Penalty: –4
Speed (10 m): 10 Speed (6 m): 6 Weight: 14 kg
Special Qualities: Strength Bonus -- grants the wearer +2 Strength. Wearer must be Force-sensitive and have the appropriate Armor Proficiency feat to gain this benefit.
Cortosis Weave -- the armor is laced with cortosis fiber. Unless it is cortosis-resistant, a lightsaber does not ignore damage reduction when it scores a hit on the wearer.
Effectively: Damage Reduction +10, I'll assume the Dex / Str Bonus has already been added to Kun's stats.
Malak: damage reduction = 5 points
Now it looks like this
Kun hits Malak by throwing a 6 or above = 70 % hit chance (10 % crit)
Malak hits Kun by throwing a 4 or above = 80 % hit chance (10 % crit)
Assuming average damage based on formula (n+1)/ 2:
Malak 7d8 + 5 (assuming 4.5 for every d8) = 36.5 (37)
Kun 2x(5d8+3) (assuming 4.5 for every d8) = 51
Now damage reduction moving in: Malak takes 46 (51-5)points of damage every time Kun hits while Kun takes 27 (37-10) points of damage for every time Malak hits him.
After 10 rounds of fighting (7 Hits by Kun, 8 Hits by Malak) it would look like that:
Damage done to Malak: 7x46 = 322
Damage done to Kun: 8x27 = 216 (296 without damage reduction if somebody wants to state that Kun doesn't wear his armor for some reason).
So Kun statistically kicks Malak's sorry SF powered ass in a lightsaber duel by dealing out much more damage per hit and (with damage reduction) taking far less damage from Malak.
Force powers ?
Again based on the formula (n+1)/2 for a d20:
Average dice throw = (20+1)/2 = 10.5 ~11
Hit chances Malak on Kun (force defence 21):
Affect Mind +9, chance of success against Kun: virtually 0 %
Control Mind +14, chance of success against Kun: 10 %
Fear +20, chance of success against Kun: 40 %
Force Grip +18, chance of success against Kun: 30 %
Force Lightning +24, chance of success against Kun: 60 %
Force Strike +11, chance of success against Kun: 0 %
Move Object +15, chance of success against Kun: 15 %
Hit chances Kun on Malak (force defence 15):
Affect Mind +13, chance of success against Malak: 30 %
Alchemy +24, (assuming those includes his Sorcery skills as they aren't listed) chance of success against Malak: 90 %
Force Push +14, chance of success against Malak: 40 %
Move Object +14, chance of success against Malak: 40 %
I know I'm ignoring some rules here but based on that most of Kun's offensive force powers (Sith Alchemy / Sorcery) will almost every time hit Malak while Malak's best chance to dish some damage out on Kun is his force lightning. Assuming equal amount of damage done with that abilities the chance for Kun to defeat Malak in a force duel is higher than Malak's chance to defeat Kun in such a battle.
So basing everything on stats, Kun would also be able to defeat Malak. And now ? Is he stronger than Revan ? Weaker ? The stats don't get us anywhere, even if we would simply accept them as they are. Technically one can still have a ridiculous amount of luck in a d20 based RPG system like that. And as I demonstrated: Even if we assume average results in terms of dice throws Malak is far away from comfortably beating Exar Kun - if he can do that at all.
Originally posted by Borbarad
There is still the possibility that Bastila's Battle Meditation did also affect Revan during his duel with Malak as the technique is specifically designed to influence the outcome of an entire battle.
And after duel with Malak, we go to the command center to find out that Bastilla was already not there. So there is no evidence that supports your assertion that Bastilla helped Revan in his duel with her BM.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Of course Revan had a 1on1 against Malak and at a certain point they also used lightsabers. But aside of that ? Technically Revan could have entered the duel with all kind of stuff to boost his natural abilities (among that possibly the Battle Meditation of Bastila), just to toss a nice pile of explosives at Malak, distract him somehow and finally finish him with the lightsaber.
The only thing we know about this duel is that it was of "TITANIC" proportions and Revan still won, despite of the fact that Malak was nearly unstoppable at that time. And only a very powerful Jedi warrior could possibly defeat him.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
and as much as I'd love to believe that, it's not logical.
...why is it that you seem to absolutely love Revan and Ragnos, DS, when they are the most horribly defined "characters" [if they can be called that...] in the whole of the SW mythos?
I can understand Luke fanboyism. Thrawn fanboyism. Pellaeon [ftw!] fanboyism. Hell, I can even understand Dooku fanboyism [he's a gazillion times the character Revan could pray to be]. But I am absolute flummoxed as to why in the hell you put the Ancient Sith and Revan on such a high plateau and why you'd "love" to believe Ragnos is more powerful than NJO Luke.
Elaborate for me. I'm tired of pondering on this topic senselessly.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDUnstoppable as in he can heal himself every time he gets beaten and get back at revan
The only thing we know about this duel is that it was of "TITANIC" proportions and Revan still won, despite of the fact that Malak was nearly unstoppable at that time. And only a very powerful Jedi warrior could possibly defeat him.