Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Just look at Malak and Exar Kun compared to each other statistically, they are almost about even with Malak getting the nod in force abilities and power, physical strength, intelligence, wisdom and charisma.
Oh noes, not the stats. Really dude...that makes absolutely no sense.
Darth Malak: Male Human Jedi Guardian 11/Sith Lord 9: Init +2 (+2 Dex); Defense 26 (+2 Dex, +14 class); Spd 10 m; VP/WP 158/16; Atk +23/+18/+13/+8 melee (7d8 +5, lightsaber) or +24/+19/+14/+9 melee (2d6 +9, crit 19-20, ancient mastercraft Sith sword), +20/+15/+10/+5 ranged; SQ Block, DR 5, enhanced Force powers, deflect (defense +2, attack -3), exceptional minions, Jedi Knight, resource access; SV Fort +16, Ref +15, Will +14; SZ M; FP 11; DSP 30; Rep +5; Str 20, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 17, Cha 20. Challenge Code H.Equipment: Lightsaber, ancient mastercraft Sith sword (attack +1, damage +4), vast resources of mysterious origin.
Skills: Balance +7, Intimidate +19, Knowledge (Sith lore) +14, Pilot +11, Read/Write Basic, Read/Write Sith*, Speak Basic, Speak Sith*.Force Skills: Affect Mind +9, Control Mind +14, Battlemind +17, Enhance Ability +15, Fear +20, Force Defense +15, Force Grip +18, Force Lightning +24, Force Strike +11, Move Object +15, Telepathy +13.
Feats: Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (lightsaber), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Sith sword)*, Force-Sensitive, Power Attack, Skill Emphasis (Knowledge [Sith Lore]), Weapon Group Proficiency (blaster pistols, simple weapons).
Force Feats: Alter, Burst of Speed, Control, Drain Force*, Force Mind, Force Whirlwind, Hatred*, Knight Defense, Lightsaber Defense, Malevolent, Master Defense, Mettle, Rage*, Sense, Sith Sorcery*, Sith Sword Defense*.
Special Qualities: Damage Reduction 5 -- Darth Malak ignores the first five points of any kind of damage. Whether this is due to hidden armor linked to his voice mask or the physical result of Sith alchemy is anyone's guess.
Enhanced Force Powers -- Using a mysterious power source as yet undiscovered (complete Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic to learn more), Darth Malak possesses extraordinary dark side Force powers out of proportion, in game terms, with his class and level. He gained three additional Force feats and 24 bonus skill points exclusively for dark side skills. In any battle, the first Force point Darth Malak spends on a dark side-related roll does not subtract from his total.
and compare him to Exar Kun:
Exar Kun: male Human, Jedi Guardian 9/Sith Lord 8; IM +3 (+3 Dex); Def 26 (+13 class, +3 Dex); Spd 10m; VP/WP 158/17; Atk +21/+16/+11/+6 melee (dmg 5d8+3/5d8+3, crit 19-20, double-bladed lightsaber), +20/+15/+10/+5 ranged; SQ Resource access, Minions, Exceptional minions; SV Fort +15, Ref +14, Will +9; SZ M; FP 8; DSP 18; Rep 12; Str 17, Dex 16, Con 17, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 13. Challenge Code H.
Equipment: Double-bladed lightsaber, Sith amulet, dark armor (+2 equipment bonus on saves against light side powers), Sith battleship, alchemical apparatus.
Skills: Computer Use +4, Craft (lightsaber) +8, Intimidate +13, Knowledge (Jedi lore) +12, Knowledge (Sith lore) +17, Read/Write Basic, Read/Write Sith, Speak Arkanian, Speak Basic, Speak Ryl, Speak Sith
Force Skills: Affect Mind +13, Alchemy +24, Battlemind +18, Enhance Ability +13, Force Defense +21, Force Push +14, Move Object +14, See Force +12
Feats: Ambidexterity, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (double-bladed lightsaber), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (lightsaber), Force-Sensitive, Heroic Surge, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (lightsaber), Weapon Group Proficiency (blaster pistols), Weapon Group Proficiency (simple weapons), Weapon Group Proficiency (vibro weapons)
Force Feats: Alter, Control, Deflect Blasters, Force Lightning, Knight Defense, Lightsaber Defense, Master Defense, Rage, Sense
Now with that Revan beat Malak, twice as a pure Jedi, then a few months later regained his entire dark side knowledge (which is more then Kuns) thus making him even stronger. Logically and Statistically Revan should be able to beat Exar Kun.
Erm. No.
Those stats are flawed as stats are always flawed.
First: This is coming from WotC who seem to favor the RPG characters. Otherwise I don't see how Malak should have reached (Guardian 11 / Sith Lord 9) level 20 which, in the POTJ Sourcebook and the DSB is otherwise reserved for DE Sidious and Yoda. Quite an exeggeration.
Second: Those stats are based on a d20 system. You might be aware of the fact that this means, as Leland Chee says himself, that there is an element of random added. So I don't see how to reach your conclusion that Malak would defeat Kun even based on that flawed stats.
Third: The stats are pretty illogical. How can Kun have a greater knowledge of Sith Lore in comparison to Malak (14 compared to 18) but at the same time have less access to actual Sith powers and a lesser Sith Lord level ? The fact that he tops Malaks force defence by 50 % is also pretty stupid. Especially thinking about the fact that Malak, as far as I remember, is completely immune to force attacks in the end of KotoR.
And before you start whining about stats they are perfectly applicable in debate, as Advent proved:Are game mechanics (video games or rpg) canon? For example, does a rpg damage rating like "7d" mean anything? If a C-canon source (like a novel or reference book) contradicts what the game mechanics say, will the book win out?
Leeland Chee says:
Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another. Because RPGs use dice, there is always the element of random chance involved, which isn't quite applicable to a book.
But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison.
Conversely, I think it would be a determinent if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction. - Leland Chee [Tasty Taste], page 37 of Holocron continuity database questions.
The second paragraph of Leland Chee's statement is where he actually fails. The stats are assigned randomly. This is pretty obvious. I mean...how did Malak reach a force lightning skill compareable to that of DE Sidious if pre-ROTJ Sidious did just electrocute around 500 Storm Troopers with a single lightning burst ? Doesn't make sense.
But well...we have the third paragraph here. If you have a source contradicting the stats they are worthless. And please. Going by the d20 stats (just some examples): Qui-Gon should have completely trashed Maul in TPM on his own while the NJO version of Luke Skywalker would hardly be able to survive against the likes of Dooku or Mace Windu. There not just "one" inconsistency there - the stats are completely inconsistant with the actual things shown in the stories. I wonder how Leland Chee didn't figure that out.
Not to mention that the Jedi Exile would be the most powerful being the SW universe had ever seen in this case, as they put the character level limit from 20 to 50 and it's not that unusual to finish KotoR II with a level of 23/24.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Either way I can prove Revan has more knowledge, as can anybody else, which is quite the case. In the case of who's powerful, lets just agree to disagree because you're throwing around as much bullshit as I am, if not more.
Once again.
What you can proof is that Revan had more knowledge sources. What you can't proof is that he learned more from them than Kun learned from Sadow.
What you can proof is that Revan knew the force bomb technique, the force drain, some sort of force storm and was able to call lightning from the sky. As I have shown you, the list of powers canonically known to Exar Kun exceeds that.
And that's not talking about how the most impressive stuff that Revan seems to have known (going by POD) is not even useable in direct confronation. In contrary to most abilities Kun has shown to us.
So I really don't get how you want to proof that Revan had more knowledge than Kun and much less I can see how you developed the idea that Revan is more powerful than Exar Kun.
And as you mentioned "last year". At that time Exar Kun VS Revan would have looked like that here.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Once again.What you can proof is that Revan had more knowledge sources. What you can't proof is that he learned more from them than Kun learned from Sadow.
What you can proof is that Revan knew the force bomb technique, the force drain, some sort of force storm and was able to call lightning from the sky. As I have shown you, the list of powers canonically known to Exar Kun exceeds that.
And that's not talking about how the most impressive stuff that Revan seems to have known (going by POD) is not even useable in direct confronation. In contrary to most abilities Kun has shown to us.
So I really don't get how you want to proof that Revan had more knowledge than Kun and much less I can see how you developed the idea that Revan is more powerful than Exar Kun.
And as you mentioned "last year". At that time Exar Kun VS Revan would have looked like that here. [/B]
Yes, that's why I mentioned it because that's what it's kind of looking like now.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
His knowledge base is broader, which points to him having more force knowledge. His knowledge base includes Korriban and Malachor V while Kun's includes only what was in Sadow's notes. Furthermore, what ancient sith techniques did Kun know? Stasis? Sith Magic?
See. This is where you always come up with the same mistake. You assume because Revan plundered some tombs and a planet filled with knowledge that would result in more knowledge. And not only that. You also assume that this knowledge has a greater value than what Kun got from Sadow, hence you assume that Revan is more powerful.
But it stays an assumption because you're not able to proof that Revan did have more knowledge than Kun because he did never show to have more knowledge than Kun.
Technically (and I don't say that this was the case) Revan could have looted the very same knowledge multiple times (as the source is pretty much always = Ancient Sith knowledge) and this without surpassing Kun's knowledge base (agein Sadow = Ancient Sith). I mean: Where is the difference of the knowledge Dark Lord X had and the knowledge Dark Lord Y had ? It's not that every one of them did exhibit unique abilities.
Kun's knowledge ? Again:
And Kun's knowledge / abilities as far as canon goes:
- he was able to heal his completely shattered bones in a pretty short amount of time using the Dark Side
- he was capable of freezing the entire Senate (Woookiepedia lists this as "mind control" although I'm not that sure about it)
- he was capable of projecting beams of Dark Side energy (against Aleema)
- same again but more powerful through the Amulet (against the Sithwyrm and Nadd)
- the DSSB lists him as an expert user of force lightning
- he was able to kill Odan Urr with a single force attack (might have been a force choke, I'm not sure about that)
- he burned Gantoris from the inside out (unknown technique used by Kun in spirit form)
- he summoned that ebon snakes, made out of pure Dark Side energy, which ripped Luke's spirit from his body (also in spirit from, unknown technique)
- he force choked all of Luke's student at a similar time (again as a spirit)
- he had a ritual at hand that would have enabled him to seperated his spirit from his body completely but keep his powers intact (which failed due to the attack of the Jedi)
- vast knowledge in Sith Alchemy: Dark Reaper, Amulet construction, altering of lifeforms (e.g. Massassi), creation of new life forms.
So Kun as spirit did show us two unique abilities while the little ritual (as well as his Sith Alchemy use) suggesting that he did have some knowledge about Ancient Sith rituals.
Where have you shown me this? And when you say powers, please be specific. Exar Kun isn't uber because he alchemically created monsters.
See above. I've posted the same stuff before (Kun's powers).
Like what, using Sadow's amulet? And remind me how his force storm isn't usable in combat, seeing as how he knew it, and canonically had it in KOTOR where he used it himself.
Erm. No.
First: Path of Destruction on that "force storm" the Sith under Bane are later using.
"He had discovered the ritual she spoke of while studying Revan's Holocron: a way to unite the minds and spirits of the Sith through a single vessel so their strength could be unleashed upon the physical world."
As you can see: It's a ritual and it requires multiple Sith. So Revan can't do the same on his own.
Second: the Epilogue of POD:
"The fires had killed most of the other bouncers. The survivors had all gone mad. All except Laa. Somehow Rain had saved her. She'd used the Force, shielding them both from the burning death and destruction, though she wasn't quite sure how she'd done it. It had just sort of...happened. Now she and Laa had nobody left but each other."
As you can see Rain did shield herself and Laa from the destruction unleashed by the Sith Lords and Bane. So aside from the fact that Revan is not able to use that ability alone, I doubt that Kun has less force defence than the untrained kid Rain. That turns this "force storm" virtually useless.
Third: In KotoR it says that Revan "called lightning from the sky". That's pretty much that point blank area effect force lightning version that is called "force storm" in the KotoR games. I neither see where this is something uber special, nor do I see where it should be anything effective against Kun. Especially since the "area effect" would be pretty stupid against a single opponent and even AotC Obi-Wan Kenobi is capable of putting up some defence against force lightning.
The fact that Revan had more knowledge, had more people verbally fellate him, broader knowledge base, etc..
So what do we have here ?
1) An unsupported assumption (Revan having more knowledge)
2) An appeal to majority (more people verbally fellating Revan)
3) A repetition of "1" (broader knowledge base = more knowledge)
And technically "2" isn't even correct. People verbally fellating Kun to a certain extend: Freedon Nadd ("One of the great ones and one even greater"😉, Ragnos ("rightly earned the title Dark Lord of the Sith"😉, Aleema ("rippling with force Dark Side energy"😉, Oss Willum ("immensely powerful Jedi"😉, Vodo ("most formidable student"😉, Thon ("thread to the entire Galaxy"😉, Odan ("not able to stop the Darkness"😉, Ood ("combat is not my skill"😉, Kyp Durron and Gantoris (both putting him above Luke), indirectly Mace Windu and Dooku (giving comments about the Dark Reaper) and of course the omniscient narrator ("Darkest power in the Galaxy"😉.
Not that this matters. As I already said: appeal to majority is a logical fallancy.
Yes, that's why I mentioned it because that's what it's kind of looking like now.
I don't see any arguments in that thread I linked. Nor do I see where I (seriously) stated that Kun would kick Revan's ass across the place. I said that if he could use his amulets against Revan he might kill him (and Anakin for that matter) with the blast. But I really doubt it would be that easy (as I have argued the effects of Kun's amulet VS force users myself).
- he was able to heal his completely shattered bones in a pretty short amount of time using the Dark Side
- he was capable of freezing the entire Senate (Woookiepedia lists this as "mind control" although I'm not that sure about it)
- he was capable of projecting beams of Dark Side energy (against Aleema)
- same again but more powerful through the Amulet (against the Sithwyrm and Nadd)
- the DSSB lists him as an expert user of force lightning
- he was able to kill Odan Urr with a single force attack (might have been a force choke, I'm not sure about that)
- he burned Gantoris from the inside out (unknown technique used by Kun in spirit form)
- he summoned that ebon snakes, made out of pure Dark Side energy, which ripped Luke's spirit from his body (also in spirit from, unknown technique)
- he force choked all of Luke's student at a similar time (again as a spirit)
- he had a ritual at hand that would have enabled him to seperated his spirit from his body completely but keep his powers intact (which failed due to the attack of the Jedi)
- vast knowledge in Sith Alchemy: Dark Reaper, Amulet construction, altering of lifeforms (e.g. Massassi), creation of new life forms
- It wasn't kun who healed himself, it was Nadd who healed him when he accepted the dark side
- Yes, an "ancient sith knowledge" like force stasis. Big deal when the senate was fill up with non force users, who had no defense to force attacks. Notice that non of the other force users around was freeze.
- yes, dark side beams coming from the amulet, big deal. By the way, hadn't Aleema survived with no damage? 😆
- yes, always the amulet. By the way, this amulet was build by Sadow, not Kun...
- unfourtunaly he never used it, and if his force lightning was that strong he would surely used it at least once, i think...
- right, a jedi more then 1 thousand years old who could barely move from where he was... Even then he still force pushes exar kun. It seems his reflexes are not that fast or at least his force defenses are not that high. If Exar let guys like Revan, Sidious or Bane to hit him with a full power force lightning, the game could have been over in the moment...
- all the other feats are pretty controversial since he was using Kyp's power, who is said to be close to luke's one, together with his own power...
- since when sith alchemy will give him advantage in a fight?
So, with all this, what did exar kun showed that may atonish us all? Hmm...
First: This is coming from WotC who seem to favor the RPG characters. Otherwise I don't see how Malak should have reached (Guardian 11 / Sith Lord 9) level 20 which, in the POTJ Sourcebook and the DSB is otherwise reserved for DE Sidious and Yoda. Quite an exeggeration.
Not quite according to the adjusted stats for ROTS, Palpatine at that time is already a level 20, as is Yoda as is Markas Ragnos. Malak in this case is as it says and the stats indicate being boosted by the Star Forges power which at the time of the duel with Revan was drawing energy from a star. I fail to see how thats an exaggeration. Other then that DE Sidious isn't even in the DSSB.
Second: Those stats are based on a d20 system. You might be aware of the fact that this means, as Leland Chee says himself, that there is an element of random added. So I don't see how to reach your conclusion that Malak would defeat Kun even based on that flawed stats.
Yeah sure, but as he then mentions:
But stats themselves aren't created randomly ; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books.
I reached the conclusion that Malak could beat Kun is based of his set of core stats that aren't created randomly, are superior to Kuns.
Third: The stats are pretty illogical. How can Kun have a greater knowledge of Sith Lore in comparison to Malak (14 compared to 18) but at the same time have less access to actual Sith powers and a lesser Sith Lord level ?
And other then you completely misinterpreted what that stat means its Sith Lore not knowledge of the Sith powers the DSSB defines the Knowledge: Sith Lore skill as:
Knowledge skills represent a study of some body of lore-in this case, histories and legends of the ancient Sith . Knowledge(Sith Lore) enables a character to answer questions about Sith traditions and the powers of the Sith.
Nowhere does that indicate that that skill translates in to "how many powers you have."
The fact that he tops Malaks force defence by 50 % is also pretty stupid. Especially thinking about the fact that Malak, as far as I remember, is completely immune to force attacks in the end of KotoR.
No, he can still be harmed by force attacks, and I didn't realise 15 from 21 was 50%, dude how old are you? 15 and 15 is...30. How you got 50% is beyond me.
The second paragraph of Leland Chee's statement is where he actually fails. The stats are assigned randomly.
I'm sorry I'll take LeeLand Chee's word over Kun Fanboy Nai ANYDAY.
This is pretty obvious. I mean...how did Malak reach a force lightning skill compareable to that of DE Sidious if pre-ROTJ Sidious did just electrocute around 500 Storm Troopers with a single lightning burst ? Doesn't make sense.
No Nai, you just don't know what your talking about, at the time of the realise of the DSSB the abilities like force lighting weren't given corresponding stat numbers, they were just listed, under the force feats section. And with that said ROTS Palpatine has a Force Lightning score of 16, given the fact that an Empire Era Palpatine outclasses his former self by 50% most of the time in force abilities its safe to say that his force lighting ability as evident by the comic where he blasts the battalion of Stormtroopers significantly rose as well. As for Malak, as I've said he is being boosted by the Star Forge so its not and exaggeration, The Star Forge just made him that damn powerful.
But well...we have the third paragraph here. If you have a source contradicting the stats they are worthless.
And show me ONE source that contradicts Malak being stronger then Exar, ONE Nai, TOTJ said Exar was the strongest dark power in the galaxy, which he was, but does that somehow account for the beings who exist 40 years after his death? No. Malak was stronger simple as that, and Revan in turn is also stronger then Kun.
And please. Going by the d20 stats (just some examples): Qui-Gon should have completely trashed Maul in TPM on his own
Please provide detailed proof to back up that assertion or shut the hell up, anyways as I said it doesn't matter if theres a contradiction between the stats and the book or movie then the book or movie always wins out, but does that disregard the stats as a whole? Hell no, as LeeLandChee says, thats were you fail Nai.
while the NJO version of Luke Skywalker would hardly be able to survive against the likes of Dooku or Mace Windu. There not just "one" inconsistency there - the stats are completely inconsistant with the actual things shown in the stories. I wonder how Leland Chee didn't figure that out.
Again, an inconsistency, thats disregarded, now how does this apply to Exar Kun and Malak...oh wait it doesn't. I'll ask you again give me ONE thing that contradicts the conclusion I've come to (Malak being stronger) that doesn't involve "LAWLZ the stats suck!" "Theres some inconsistencies...so the whole medium is uncanon." Essentially its your word vs. and LFL representative, who acknowledges that they're are some inconsistencies and when viewed in the face of a higher canon the higher canon wins. Guess who's word I'm gonna take...
Not to mention that the Jedi Exile would be the most powerful being the SW universe had ever seen in this case, as they put the character level limit from 20 to 50 and it's not that unusual to finish KotoR II with a level of 23/24.
And...thats obviously not canon, and for her to be used in a stat book she'd have to be adjusted to the fit the same d20 system that every other character in Star Wars has to fit. Use your head silly.
Originally posted by kamhal
- It wasn't kun who healed himself, it was Nadd who healed him when he accepted the dark side
- Yes, an "ancient sith knowledge" like force stasis. Big deal when the senate was fill up with non force users, who had no defense to force attacks. Notice that non of the other force users around was freeze.
- yes, dark side beams coming from the amulet, big deal. By the way, hadn't Aleema survived with no damage? 😆
- yes, always the amulet. By the way, this amulet was build by Sadow, not Kun...
- unfourtunaly he never used it, and if his force lightning was that strong he would surely used it at least once, i think...
- right, a jedi more then 1 thousand years old who could barely move from where he was... Even then he still force pushes exar kun. It seems his reflexes are not that fast or at least his force defenses are not that high. If Exar let guys like Revan, Sidious or Bane to hit him with a full power force lightning, the game could have been over in the moment...
- all the other feats are pretty controversial since he was using Kyp's power, who is said to be close to luke's one, together with his own power...
- since when sith alchemy will give him advantage in a fight?So, with all this, what did exar kun showed that may atonish us all? Hmm...
Exactly.
Originally posted by kamhal
- It wasn't kun who healed himself, it was Nadd who healed him when he accepted the dark side
Nope. That was Kun. Nadd just gave him access to the Dark Side but he claims that Kun has to "help himself".
- Yes, an "ancient sith knowledge" like force stasis. Big deal when the senate was fill up with non force users, who had no defense to force attacks. Notice that non of the other force users around was freeze.
Urm. No. Several sources list that as mind control. Yes...it is a big deal if you simply control thousands of beings - freezing them with the very same force attack would also be impressive.
- yes, dark side beams coming from the amulet, big deal. By the way, hadn't Aleema survived with no damage? 😆
Where did Kun blast Aleema with the amulet ? As she tries to attack him with an energy beam and he replies that she just knows a little bit off Sith Magic when he mastered the art completely and then attacks her with an energy beam himself. Would be quite stupid to suggest that he used the amulet there.
- yes, always the amulet. By the way, this amulet was build by Sadow, not Kun...
Where did I ever say that it was built by Kun ?
- unfourtunaly he never used it, and if his force lightning was that strong he would surely used it at least once, i think...
Against which opponent ?
- right, a jedi more then 1 thousand years old who could barely move from where he was... Even then he still force pushes exar kun. It seems his reflexes are not that fast or at least his force defenses are not that high. If Exar let guys like Revan, Sidious or Bane to hit him with a full power force lightning, the game could have been over in the moment...
Urm. What ? Odan didn't force push him but used a wall of light attack against him. He had the initial attack. Where does he need reflexes for that ? And since force lightning can be stopped by holding a saber in the way (see AotC Kenobi) I highly doubt that would be effective against Kun.
- all the other feats are pretty controversial since he was using Kyp's power, who is said to be close to luke's one, together with his own power...
Urm. Dude. I was talking about the fact that he knew the corresponding technique to rip Luke's spirit from his body and burn Gantoris inside out, regardless whose power he was using. We were talking about knowledge. And neither did he use somebody elses power to kill Gantoris, nor did he do that while force choking Luke's students.
- since when sith alchemy will give him advantage in a fight?
Since Sith Alchemy is used to store force energy in objects. Like the second amulet Kun's wearing. And notice how I was still talking about knowledge and not fighting abilities.
So, with all this, what did exar kun showed that may atonish us all? Hmm...
What did Revan show that may astonish us all ? Hmm...
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Not quite according to the adjusted stats for ROTS, Palpatine at that time is already a level 20, as is Yoda as is Markas Ragnos. Malak in this case is as it says and the stats indicate being boosted by the Star Forges power which at the time of the duel with Revan was drawing energy from a star. I fail to see how thats an exaggeration. Other then that DE Sidious isn't even in the DSSB.
And you know how the ROTS novel contradicts all of that ? Yoda is listed there as the greatest enemy the Dark Side has ever known. By implication through the stats, Revan must have been more powerful than Malak (as a Jedi) to be able to actually beat that SF powered version of him. This would contradict the idea that Yoda is the most powerful lightside up to that point.
Yeah sure, but as he then mentions:But stats themselves aren't created randomly ; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books.
I reached the conclusion that Malak could beat Kun is based of his set of core stats that aren't created randomly, are superior to Kuns.
What "core stats" are you talking about and what do you think they base that stats on ? Here is what you've written: "Malak getting the nod in force abilities and power, physical strength, intelligence, wisdom and charisma."
Now please tell me what that stuff is based on. Where is the instance to compare Malak's wisdom or intelligence to that of Exar Kun ? Physical strength: Can be done. But we saw in the movies that this doesn't really matter due to force enchantment. And the force abilities and powers ? Obviously there are lacking some for Kun where I don't see the basis for giving Malak a +24 force lightning.
And other then you completely misinterpreted what that stat means its Sith Lore not knowledge of the Sith powers the DSSB defines the Knowledge: Sith Lore skill as:Knowledge skills represent a study of some body of lore-in this case, histories and legends of the ancient Sith . Knowledge(Sith Lore) enables a character to answer questions about Sith traditions and the powers of the Sith.
Nowhere does that indicate that that skill translates in to "how many powers you have."
Once again: Malak is supposed to have more training as a Sith (indicated by Sith Lord level) and as you argued here, Revan had a broader variety of sources (hence more knowledge) about the Ancient Sith then Kun, which would also be accesible for Malak. How can Kun than trump Malak in Sith Lore ? Hell...why doesn't Malak even have "Jedi Lore" ?
No, he can still be harmed by force attacks, and I didn't realise 15 from 21 was 50%, dude how old are you? 15 and 15 is...30. How you got 50% is beyond me.
LMAO ! Did you ever have lessons in math, kid ?
First: Sorry. I have puzzled the stats and thought Malak's force defence is 14.
Second: I said Kun trumps that by 50 %. That means 150 % of 14. And that would be ? 21 maybe ? (Just to spell it out for you 14 devided by 2 = 7 + 14 = 21).
Third: So Kun has just 140 % of Malak's force defence (15 compared to 21).
Just for freaking comparison in terms of force defence:
Palpatine (ROTS): +11 (Kun almost twice as much ? WTF ?)
Anakin Skywalker (ROTS): +8 (WTF ? The Chosen One ?)
Yoda: +12 (ROFL - 800 year old Jedi Master)
Mace Windu: +12 (right, same as Yoda ? Jeez ?)
Kun also trumps about every PT character when it comes to Enchance Ability (+13, Yoda / Mace have +12) or Battlemind (+18, Yoda +11, Mace +16).
So are you going to tell me that Kun is virtually untouchable by force attacks and would destroy every single PT character in a conventional fight due to boosting himself with the Enchance Ability and Battlemind ? Or are you ready to admit that those d20 stats are a great pile of bullshit when it comes to actual debates.
I'm sorry I'll take LeeLand Chee's word over Kun Fanboy Nai ANYDAY.
And I'm sorry: I'll take logical reasoning above Chee's word any day as there is no logical basis for that stats - they are randomly assigned. Of course I see why an employee of George Lucas is not going to say that those Sourcebook stats are completely worthless. Actually they want to sell that stuff...
No Nai, you just don't know what your talking about, at the time of the realise of the DSSB the abilities like force lighting weren't given corresponding stat numbers, they were just listed, under the force feats section. And with that said ROTS Palpatine has a Force Lightning score of 16, given the fact that an Empire Era Palpatine outclasses his former self by 50% most of the time in force abilities its safe to say that his force lighting ability as evident by the comic where he blasts the battalion of Stormtroopers significantly rose as well. As for Malak, as I've said he is being boosted by the Star Forge so its not and exaggeration, The Star Forge just made him that damn powerful.
The point is that some Sith Lord who had access to the Dark Side for about 5 years and had studied the arts of the Jedi for 20 (maybe) years is put on the same level like a Sith Lord who did that entire business for more than 5 decades. Not to mention that it would still put Revan over Yoda which contradicts the ROTS novel.
And show me ONE source that contradicts Malak being stronger then Exar, ONE Nai, TOTJ said Exar was the strongest dark power in the galaxy, which he was, but does that somehow account for the beings who exist 40 years after his death? No. Malak was stronger simple as that, and Revan in turn is also stronger then Kun.
If all you have to say that are flawed d20 stats, I don't think I have to argue with you any longer. And by the way: Since I don't have the stats for Revan (do you ? Please post them) and we don't know how Revan defeated Malak, this would be again a flawed conclusion. Technically Revan still had all his weapons (grenades for example) and other stuff (health packs, stimulats, implants) to deal with Malak not to notice that he was most likely aided by Bastilla's Battle Meditation. All benefits that he won't have against Exar Kun.
So what ?
Please provide detailed proof to back up that assertion or shut the hell up, anyways as I said it doesn't matter if theres a contradiction between the stats and the book or movie then the book or movie always wins out, but does that disregard the stats as a whole? Hell no, as LeeLandChee says, thats were you fail Nai.
We're not talking about "one" contradiction. We're talking about a shit load of contradictions. Really. Mace Windu VS Sidious based on D20 Stats would end how ? Yoda vs Sidious ? Anakin VS Kenobi ? Anakin vs Dooku ? Kun f*cking up the entire PT people with uber force defence ?
Again, an inconsistency, thats disregarded, now how does this apply to Exar Kun and Malak...oh wait it doesn't. I'll ask you again give me ONE thing that contradicts the conclusion I've come to (Malak being stronger) that doesn't involve "LAWLZ the stats suck!" "Theres some inconsistencies...so the whole medium is uncanon." Essentially its your word vs. and LFL representative, who acknowledges that they're are some inconsistencies and when viewed in the face of a higher canon the higher canon wins. Guess who's word I'm gonna take...
Ok. Malak boosted up by the SF is more powerful than Exar Kun.
Revan boosted up by Bastilla's Battle Meditation and equiped with a broad array of weapons and stuff to help him was able to take him down. This proofs that Revan is more powerful than Exar Kun how exactly ? Oh thanks for waisting your time by constructing another useless "argument".
And you know how the ROTS novel contradicts all of that ? Yoda is listed there as the greatest enemy the Dark Side has ever known. By implication through the stats, Revan must have been more powerful than Malak (as a Jedi) to be able to actually beat that SF powered version of him. This would contradict the idea that Yoda is the most powerful lightside up to that point.
Since I don't have the stats for Revan (do you ? Please post them) and we don't know [i]how Revan defeated Malak, this would be again a flawed conclusion. Technically Revan still had all his weapons (grenades for example) and other stuff (health packs, stimulants, implants) to deal with Malak not to notice that he was most likely aided by Bastilla's Battle Meditation. [/I]
Self ownage.
And you don't even have to be at a level 20 (Malaks level) to beat Malak, I can beat him with a level 17 or 18 Revan with the right stats, the point is on paper, which is what we normally go off of in debates like this: Malak is stronger then Exar Kun, where as Revan whom after his duel with Malak gets an unsubstantiated power up from "remembering" all his dark side knowledge, which was said by Bane that even Sith Lords wouldn't even attempt half the shit he knew. Other then that we can tell it was a pretty damn clean victory because Malak wouldn't admit his inferiority to someone who got a lucky shot with a blaster, and he demands to fight the duel in ancient Sith traditions.
But after all that does that make Revan more powerful then Yoda? No. And which stats are you using for Yoda? I'm going by the PoTJ stats and he'd very much beat Revan. ANd the stats of the website for Yoda don't make sense as he looses a number of abilities he performs in the movies: dissipate energy, aware, burst of speed, his knowledge of the Jedi goes down, his knowledge of the mean streets of Coruscant goes down as well, he completely looses the ability to disguise himself, he's no longer persuasive, he forgets how to make sabers a bit, Other then that he generally becomes weaker.
Unless your gonna sti here and expect me to believe Yoda became a complete puss in three years those stats "on the website" are rendered irrelevant and uncanon since the contradict the ROTS novel and allow Revan to be seemingly more powerful then Yoda and allows ALOT of others to come close to his power, which was defined as being almost head and heels above the other Jedi of the time. And statistically Sidious should have whipped Yoda's ass, but that didn't happen and Yoda not only disarmed him but stopped and pushed back his force attacks and blew him across the room.
On further inspection those website stats (Hereos and Villians for ROTS) are ridicules, they're not congruent with the DSSB or the PotJ and they're not congruent with the canon the movie or the novel, except for Windu's and Grevious.
Remeber this line:
Conversely, I think it would be a determinant if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction.
Meaning, he'd be able to beat Malak, meaning he's still stronger then Revan, who with all his dark side knowledge doesn't account for 700 years of Jedi Knowledge. Meaning theres no contradiction.
Now please tell me what that stuff is based on. Where is the instance to compare Malak's wisdom or intelligence to that of Exar Kun ?
His wisdom has to be high for his force powers to be that strong (24 in FL) along with the SF boosting him, thus his wisdom would be high, as for intelligence its done based on whats displayed by the character, Exar displays more intelligence then Malak thus its higher.
And the force abilities and powers ? Obviously there are lacking some for Kun
No, everything he showed is there most of his mundane powers are covered under "Sith Sorcery" which is basically "Sith Magic".
where I don't see the basis for giving Malak a +24 force lightning.
Again, he is being boosted by the Star Forge and he probably excelled at that particular skill, as evident by his stat. As long as its not better then DE or Empire Palpy it doesn't matter.
Once again: Malak is supposed to have more training as a Sith (indicated by Sith Lord level) and as you argued here, Revan had a broader variety of sources (hence more knowledge) about the Ancient Sith then Kun, which would also be accesible for Malak. How can Kun than trump Malak in Sith Lore ?
Because Malak didn't have all of Revans knowledge, he had NEVER been to Malachor and didn't even know there was an academy there, and whos to say Revan shared everything with his apprentice? Why would he?
Hell...why doesn't Malak even have "Jedi Lore"?
Who knows who cares, your nit picking.
LMAO ! Did you ever have lessons in math, kid ?First: Sorry. I have puzzled the stats and thought Malak's force defence is 14.
Second: I said Kun trumps that by 50 %. That means 150 % of 14. And that would be ? 21 maybe ? (Just to spell it out for you 14 devided by 2 = 7 + 14 = 21).
Third: So Kun has just 140 % of Malak's force defence (15 compared to 21).
Exactly, and as I said it'd be impossible for Exar to be 50% higher then Malak: Your original argument.
All those are from that shitty website version which contradict the canon. Based on those stats Anakin could get effectively owned by any member of the council and people like Cay Qel Droma could give him a run for his money. They are horrid.
Kun also trumps about every PT character when it comes to Enchance Ability (+13, Yoda / Mace have +12) or Battlemind (+18, Yoda +11, Mace +16).
Thats why Kuns ridiculously high force defense is rendered uncanon, and needs to be nerfed because that make him stronger then Empire Era Sidious. Which is BS, even Malak being boosted by the Star Forge can only muster a 15 in which Sidious in TMP is still stronger. If there are discrepancies with a few individual stats you adjust them based on common sense, like Vaders "move object" being higher then Empire Era Palpatines in that case Sidious who has lifted thousand pound+ Senate pods with ease and held them in stasis tossed them all the while laughing having the time of his life would logical be higher then Vaders. Again that still doesn't disprove then argument at hand or the medium.
The point is that some Sith Lord who had access to the Dark Side for about 5 years and had studied the arts of the Jedi for 20 (maybe) years is put on the same level like a Sith Lord who did that entire business for more than 5 decades.
What do you not get about STAR FORGE BOOSTED.
Not to mention that it would still put Revan over Yoda which contradicts the ROTS novel.
Been addressed.
Since I don't have the stats for Revan (do you ? Please post them)
and we don't know how Revan defeated MalakQUOTE]Oh please use your head. If Revan tried to lob a grenade at Malak, he blow it back in his face with the force. If Revan tried to use a health pack which while fighting freakin Malak he'd get his head diced off. The possibility remains he could have been amped up on stims though.
[QUOTE]
to deal with Malak not to notice that he was most likely aided by Bastilla's Battle Meditation.
This had been handled and I'd like you to prove Bastila was boosting Revan considering you gain no active affects after she starts, the game makes no mention of it, the story makes no mention of it, Bastila was focusing her attention on the fleet battle and finally she's scared to be even in the same room as Malak who would she try to exert her will on him or even put her presence in a battle with such heated emotions going on?
All benefits that he won't have against Exar Kun.
So what are they fighting naked? Revan would get his robes and utility belt (something all Jedi carry) why can he dose up on stims or carry a health pack (which is standard equipment according to the PotJ)
We're not talking about "one" contradiction?
Based on that shitty website stats Mace wins in saber combat, Sids wins in the force...look what happened. Based on the TMP Sids and ROTS Windu the same outcome...gee I wonder what happened in the movie.
Yoda vs Sidious ?
Website versions remain the same out come as the movies, as do any other as Yoda largely won the duel but lost the fight.
Anakin VS Kenobi ?
Again non canon website stats they're mirrors of each other, with Anakin being a little stronger with the rage feat. Canon, Anakin should have absolutely pissed on him...wonder what actually happened...
Anakin vs Dooku ?
Dooku should blow him away hence why Anakins stats on that website are bull shit and uncanon
Kun f*cking up the entire PT people with uber force defence ?
Not canon.
Ok. Malak boosted up by the SF is more powerful than Exar Kun.
Glad you admit it.
Revan boosted up by Bastilla's Battle Meditation and equiped with a broad array of weapons and stuff to help him was able to take him down. This proofs that Revan is more powerful than Exar Kun how exactly ?
Been addressed. It proofs Revan is stronger since:
A. Malak acknowledges his power and him to be the superior
B. Revan after that regains his old memories making him even stronger.
Oh thanks for waisting your time by constructing another useless "argument".
Sure thing Nai, I'll do that when you stop nit picking with irrelevant bullshit.