Exar Kun and Darth Maul vs Darth Revan and Anakin Skywalker ep 3

Originally posted by Gideon
...why is it that you seem to absolutely love Revan and Ragnos, DS, when they are the most horribly defined "characters" [if they can be called that...] in the whole of the SW mythos?

I can understand Luke fanboyism. Thrawn fanboyism. Pellaeon [ftw!] fanboyism. Hell, I can even understand Dooku fanboyism [he's a gazillion times the character Revan could pray to be]. But I am absolute flummoxed as to why in the hell you put the Ancient Sith and Revan on such a high plateau and why you'd "love" to believe Ragnos is more powerful than NJO Luke.

Elaborate for me. I'm tired of pondering on this topic senselessly.

I guess the obscurity/ambiguity of the characters. I see the ancients as a lost race of magicians that created most, if not all dark side techniques, and were pure dark side energy, etc..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I guess the obscurity/ambiguity of the characters. I see the ancients as a lost race of magicians that created most, if not all dark side techniques, and were pure dark side energy, etc..

To each his own.

I, on the other hand, prefer defined characters. To me, the Ancient Sith were a group of powerful, knowledgeable Force users, but that's it. Yes, they came up with most of the dark side techniques. But ultimately? They were failures. Constant fighting and heckling dwindled their resources and their power, and it was up to their descendants to ultimately accomplish the goals of the Sith.

Hence why I consider the later Sith to be the superior Sith. Perhaps not more powerful, but smarter? Hell yes. More successful? Hell yes. More effective? Hell yes.

And as for wanting "pure dark side energy", Palpatine fits that description better than any Sith.

Yea, I agree

Thanks for the answer, btw.

Wait. You accept that Revan is not the most powerful Jedi ever based on the fact that he could have done all with his gimmicks and support from Bastilla and just after that...

No I accept the fact that you contradict yourself.

- Malak is stronger than Kun because he was boosted beyond imagination by the Star Forge. Notice how that doesn't put him in an own league compared to Kun.

Maybe your confused I'm arguing STAR FORGE MALAK is stronger then Exar Kun, I think I made it clear in my first post when labeling his stats as "Star Forge Malak" (Why the f*ck would I post SF Malak stats then say a weaker version is stronger then Kun) but it seems I'll have to keep labeling it, I'm sorry.

- now Revan with unknown amount of support (stuff he had, Bastila) managed to defeat that boosted version of Malak

Other then your wrong again, He didn't have bastila and most of his stuff is useless, the stims were off and since the battle was described as "Epic" we can assume it went a rather long time, Grenades are useless against a force user and Malak had no missing limbs which I assume a grenade would do to him...and finally you owned yourself again:

"and of course somebody can use a health pack while trying to fend off a force using lightsaber wielder."

But I can't stay consistent.

Can you again explain to me how, from this facts, you draw the conclusion that Revan must be stronger than Exar Kun?

I'll explain it again on paper and just comparing the two characters Malak is the stronger, Revan whom beat Malak twice, still may not have been as strong as Malak on paper, but then he gains an upgrade where he reattains all his former Jedi training and knowledge plus all his dark side knowledge which as I've said far surpasses Kun, and made Bane cream his damn pants.

And ancient Sith traditions ? You're talking about backstabbing bastards like Sadow ?

Really Nai, and here I was thinking the ancient Sith were somewhat about honor, and you know keeping the head of a defeated foe in a glass and leaving him a position where he is respected...hmmm doesn't sound like backstabbing to me, moreover your taking this COMPLETELY out of context, logically he meant the dueling aspect.

Not to mention that Revan at this point was, you know, no Sith.

And...so he'd just lob grenades at him and get them blown back in his face...

The same website somehow lists the very same stats you've posted for Kun and Malak here ? What conclusion shall I draw from that fact. Not to mention that this website which doesn't make sense is made by the same people who assign those uber stats to the SW characters. That's if we're both talking about the official WotC page.

Oh wow Nai, thats some really faulty logic, so basically what your saying is if there's one contradiction or inconsistency the ENTIRE thing is un canon, I guess by you logic that makes the ROTS novel uncanon due to being inconsistent with the movie at certain times as well as almost what 50% of EU material.

But I'll break it down for you:

Conversely, I think it would be a determinant if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction. - Lee Land Chee

The stats in that particular article contradict a myrid of other sources thus they are non canon, the rest save that I'm talking about save for Kun's defense does not. And that in NO WAY renders the DSSB or the PotJ or any other stat the displays no contradiction to the movie or books as non canon. Get it?

The stats for Kun are also pretty much f*cked up based on what he demonstrates in the comics / books. Sorry. The stats are simply useless.

According to who...you?

And either you didn't manage to post that for Kun or they did forget it, because I don't see any "Sith Sorcery" in the stats you've posted for Kun.

I must have forgot because in the DSSB its his last force feat.

Oh right. Revan kept Malachor a secret from Malak for 3 years ? I totally believe that. He did share the knowledge about the Star Forge with Malak (obviously so much that Malak later was able to use it with higher efficiency) but he should have kept certain knowledge away from Malak ? Questionable.

like the other Jedi brethren, is unaware of the tremendous dark side power wielded by Revan and the terrible secrets of Malachor V. Revan's power continues to grow, and he secretly strengthens his stronghold, hiding it even from his apprentice, DARTH MALAK. - The Chronicles

If I have to "adjust stats" based on common sense, then I could do that to every character (even Malak).

If it contradicts higher canon then YES we do adjust it, there is no viable reason for WHY Kun's force defense is so high, and that would allow him to piss on Palpatine, which is against the canon.

Either you accept anything or you accept nothing. This is no"pick what you like from one source and declare the rest doesn't fit" contest. Either everything or nothing.

So is the ROTS novel non canon? Is PoD non canon because it has a character using vaapad, is the whole KOTOR series non canon because of the seemingly impossible 40 year technological leap, is Dark Empire non canon cause of you know the damn the whole "bring balance to the force" thing...I can go on...I'm picking out what contradicts, if you didn't get that by now.

I could just say that Kun's amulet did just boost his force defence. Or that the second amulet did.

Then you'd lack an understanding of what the amulet actually does: the DSSB says it allows you to produce the beams (that actually hurt the force user) and increase you TK abilities, it makes NO mention of force defense as thats what the Sith Talismans are exclusively for.

Holy crap. So he could have the same stats like Exar Kun and still win that battle with Malak ? Wait. You said yourself you can beat Malak with a level 17 or 18 Revan. Damn. So as I said: Pointless argumentation attempt.

Did I deny this? MY POINT IS: ON PAPER MALAK IS STRONGER. The fact is that after this battle where Revan beat that Malak twice, he becomes even stronger, due to having the most dark side knowledge since the ancient Sith themselves. So assuming that Revan has the same stats like Exar abd the battle is still described as epic and vicious, he barley beats Malak, then he gets a significant power upgrade...making him stronger then his previous incarnation.

You know how Battle Meditation works, right ?
It changes the outcome of a complete battle. The battle was going on not only outside but also inside the SF. So to change the outcome, Bastila would have needed to affect both: The fleet battle and the battle outside. Hell...why would she even focus on the battle outside when the most important fight was happening inside of the SF ?

You have no clue what your talking about: as I've said which you've yet to address, the gameplay makes no mention of any type of boost, no other source makes a mention of any type of boost. Bastila herself is afraid to be even near Malak, why would she try to exert pressure on him? Why would she try to exert pressure on him WHILE he's using the Star Forge?

The most important battle was not Revan vs Malak it was destroying the SF, as Master Vandar says the SF was the main objective.

And please tell me how Revan should have been able to defeat Malak clearly if Malak has those stats without any help from outside ?

I don't have to: you can do it in the game.

B. Erm. Malak just said he was stronger than ever before when he was a Jedi. So I doubt that his former knowledge (when we don't know how much of it he regained during the events shown in KotoR) would have made him much stronger. Not that it would matter as we still don't know how he did beat Malak.

Bastila says his memories came flooding back in the months following KOTOR, in KOTOR 2.

"It seemed the teachings contained withing the single Holocron surpassed those of the Academys entire archives. Revan had discovered many rituals of the ancient Sith...Bane could barley wrap his mind around their awesome potential...some rituals were so terrible...so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith Master...that he doubted he would ever use them." - POD

Thats a sample of the shit Revan knew as a Dark Lord and your saying that knowledge, along with his Jedi knowledge that Vandar said he had an insatiable appetite for combined with his current incarnation wouldn't be much stronger?

As for your other little essay: what don't you get? I'm using this as LeeLand Chee said they should be used as a "scale" to compare characters, as they should be used. I'm omitting ithe actual gamepley aspect of it (involving random chance) hence why I didn't post something like you did. And where the hell did you get Kuns armour stats? It seems like you just picked the best ones from the book and gave them to him.

I love it when you play the prick card with me, Ac. All the more funny when I embarrass you by pointing out your stupid mistakes. Here's my statement:

First off, I wasn't trying to play the "prick card" I asked you before you go on the "stats can be BS" rant, which I acknowledge they can be at times and even did so in my first post on them, to at least read or even skim before you post because when you do it only makes [B]YOU sound redundant.

Secondly I don't see how you embarrassed me, as I didn't make mistakes and have covered all the bases when it comes to inconsistencies as most of the stats Nai is bitching about come from the WotC website and what they displayed is not canon. Other then that people I'll never see in real life can't embarrass me, whats would be more embarrassing is people knowing I actually waste my time with this shit.

Translation: I don't give a shit about your argument. I don't give a shit about the entire debate in question. I explicitly stated that, and I also said that I "haven't been paying attention" to the debate, which is why I didn't point the finger at you or Nai. I posted to point out that the stats can be absolute bullshit.

So you posted redundant information, that has already known...for what now...

I didn't say anything was wrong with it, Ac. Maybe you should stop dishing out advice about reading and learn to do it yourself?

That last part was a general statement to the "Stats are BS!11!" crowd who keeps posting.

Styles, Malak isn't anywhere near as powerful as Kun. Or maybe NEAR him but Kun is his superior in every way shape and form. Malak needs the use of the Star Forge to be labeled invincible and Revan is still stronger. Kun himself is miles ahead of everybody during his time. His force abilities are apparently beyond Malak's. I don't know where you get this Malak is stronger than Kun stuff.

Maybe I should clarify, Malak on the Star Forge is superior to Exar Kun.

As for why people like Revan...I can't tell you everyone elses but I can tell you why I do: simply because you can push your own personality on the character, adn aside from that he has a interesting back ground.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In a vision of Duron Qel Droma, we see Revan wearing Qel Droma's robes and a Mask. And he was also armed with a Light Saber. The rest are useless claims unless some more official details about this duel are revealed.

Once again, you're misconstruing people's arguments. Why am I not surprised?

You'll notice that Borbarad said that Revan "could have" came equipped with x and y items, which means since the circumstances surrounding the duel itself are a mystery, there's no way of telling. But it's a possibility, so it's not a "useless claim" simply because you'd like to believe it is.

The only thing we know about this duel is that it was of "TITANIC" proportions and Revan still won

By means unknown.

despite of the fact that Malak was nearly unstoppable at that time.

Originally posted by Advent
"This confrontation erupted into a massive battle as Republic fleet forces arrived to attack the Star Forge. Endless streams of ships poured forth from the Star Forge, striking against the amassed warships of the Republic.

Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed." (Star Wars databank, Darth Malak)

It does indeed say that he was "nearly unstoppable", however, it then goes on to say that the Republic won because the Star Forge was destroyed. And there's talk of the skirmish between the two forces, as well. One could assume that it wasn't stating that Malak as an individual being was nigh unconquerable, but the entire force he had at his disposal.

Originally posted by Advent
Look at when history books refer to Adolf Hitler as "unstoppable", just Google it. You'll see such terms like that, or similar phrases, even when only referring to Hitler, however, he's only "unstoppable", and the like because of his forces, and such. You honestly think the nations of the world couldn't take down one single Nazi? Rofl.

Originally posted by Advent
Even if you don't want to believe such, the quote is up for interpretation, ergo you cannot say that "Ooh! Malak himself is nearly unstoppable", and act as if it matters much, because it can be said both ways, and you can't prove yours as being absolutely correct (neither can I, but that's not what I'm trying to do anyways).

And only a very powerful Jedi warrior could possibly defeat him.

What's your point? It's already been established that Revan is a "very powerful Jedi warrior", so I don't know why you insist on repeating things.

Originally posted by Advent
What's your point? It's already been established that Revan is a "very powerful Jedi warrior", so I don't know why you insist on repeating things. [/B]

Good Lord, thank you. I thought I was the only damn one who saw it. As I just addressed, he does whatever the hell he can to fellate Revan.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Do you know any details of that duel to make this claim?

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Maybe your confused I'm arguing STAR FORGE MALAK is stronger then Exar Kun, I think I made it clear in my first post when labeling his stats as "Star Forge Malak" (Why the f*ck would I post SF Malak stats then say a weaker version is stronger then Kun) but it seems I'll have to keep labeling it, I'm sorry.

Maybe you missed my last post. Kun would still most likely trash even an SF powered Malak in a duel. So ?

Other then your wrong again, He didn't have bastila and most of his stuff is useless, the stims were off and since the battle was described as "Epic" we can assume it went a rather long time, Grenades are useless against a force user and Malak had no missing limbs which I assume a grenade would do to him.

Oh. Grenades are useless against force users. Yay. I guess you go and tell that to Yaddle who was killed with a thermal detonator.

I'll explain it again on paper and just comparing the two characters Malak is the stronger, Revan whom beat Malak twice, still may not have been as strong as Malak on paper, but then he gains an upgrade where he reattains all his former Jedi training and knowledge plus all his dark side knowledge which as I've said far surpasses Kun, and made Bane cream his damn pants.

First: Even on paper Kun kills Malak in a lightsaber duel and Malak hasn't much of a chance to take Kun with force powers.

Second: Revan can't be much better than Malak and his stats won't increase just because of regaining some memory. So Kun would still trash him.

Really Nai, and here I was thinking the ancient Sith were somewhat about honor, and you know keeping the head of a defeated foe in a glass and leaving him a position where he is respected...hmmm doesn't sound like backstabbing to me, moreover your taking this COMPLETELY out of context, logically he meant the dueling aspect.

What he meant is completely irrelevant because Revan wanted him dead at any cost. Kenobi for example had no problem to shoot Grievous with a blaster, Sidious had no problem utilizing Anakin to get rid of Mace Windu and manipulation of the enviroment is some nice way to get rid of certain opponents (see Sadow, Sidious, Vader, Bane).

And...so he'd just lob grenades at him and get them blown back in his face...

No. We're arguing based on stats here. Hence Revan hits Malak with grenades throwing a 7 or higher with his d20...you know...you can even TRY that. It perfectly works ingame.

Oh wow Nai, thats some really faulty logic, so basically what your saying is if there's one contradiction or inconsistency the ENTIRE thing is un canon, I guess by you logic that makes the ROTS novel uncanon due to being inconsistent with the movie at certain times as well as almost what 50% of EU material.

No. What I'm saying is what WotC says themselves. Just to quote them:

Q: It seems as if Jedi characters aren't capable of what we see in the movies. First, they never have enough skill points to be very good at many skills. Second, the vitality point costs for Force powers are so high that you can hardly afford to use them. Am I missing something?

A: No, you're not missing anything. The problem is that if Jedi and other Force-using classes were played as they appear on-screen, they'd be virtually superhuman, completely overshadowing the other PCs. We tried to find a happy medium between doing the things we see on screen and maintaining balance with non-Force-users: Thus, the Force is capable of amazing things, but you're unlikely to be very good at very many Force skills, and you don't have enough vitality to keep it up for very long. Jedi have to be conservative with the Force, using it only when they really need it.

And here you have their own words saying that they can't give the Jedi all the power they have in the movies because that would put the entire RP system out of balance since Jedi would be virtually unbeatable. Got it now ? That stats are not canon.

But I'll break it down for you:

Conversely, I think it would be a determinant if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction. - Lee Land Chee

The stats in that particular article contradict a myrid of other sources thus they are non canon, the rest save that I'm talking about save for Kun's defense does not. And that in NO WAY renders the DSSB or the PotJ or any other stat the displays no contradiction to the movie or books as non canon. Get it?

Read the above commentary quoted from the official WotC homepage. They had to limit all Jedi characters because a non-Jedi-PC would have no chance at all againt a Jedi otherwise. Hence those stats can't be canon because in no way the characters can be put on a level that they have in the respective sources. Just for example: Yoda when using the force entchantment ability has the highest defence available in the game (36). Yet still some particular skilled blaster wielder (e.g. Boba Fett, Jango Fett) would still be able to hit him with a chance of 20 % which is pretty hilarious.

According to who...you?

According to WotC...so ?

If it contradicts higher canon then YES we do adjust it, there is no viable reason for WHY Kun's force defense is so high, and that would allow him to piss on Palpatine, which is against the canon.

You're quite unfamiliar with the interpreation of d20 stats, huh ?
Going by a defence of 31 (master defence) and +22 attack bonus Sidious has pretty good chances to defeat Kun in a lightsaber duel because Kun has just a 50 % chance to score a hit against him, while Sidious hits Kun with a chance of 75 %.

And Kun's force defence ? You're aware of the fact that force defence is a sort of "rescue throw" and that, to affect people with regular force defence (10-15) effectively you still need some force power bonus of 20 or above, correct ? Hence why you almost never see Jedi / Sith entering a duel that's entirely force based.

So is the ROTS novel non canon? Is PoD non canon because it has a character using vaapad, is the whole KOTOR series non canon because of the seemingly impossible 40 year technological leap, is Dark Empire non canon cause of you know the damn the whole "bring balance to the force" thing...I can go on...I'm picking out what contradicts, if you didn't get that by now.

Dude. If the makers of the RPG say that it's impossible to create force users as they appear in the movies because they would be too overpowered...and the movies don't even feature the most extreme force feats we've seen in the SW universe, it doesn't require a genious for figuring out that the stats are not canon.

Then you'd lack an understanding of what the amulet actually does: the DSSB says it allows you to produce the beams (that actually hurt the force user) and increase you TK abilities, it makes NO mention of force defense as thats what the Sith Talismans are exclusively for.

And you still lack an understanding of the fact that the RPG is just an interpretation of the things displayed in the sources. Sith talismans ? Do you think that somebody who pretty much possessed everything Sadow had (including that talisman Sadow wears in the comics) and an Sith Alchemy skill of +24 might possibly be able to come up with something like that ? Oh wait...did you actually know what a force talisman in the RPG does ? Actually you just put Force Points on a certain objects. It's possible to receive +10 boni in the matter of five days. So I guess Kun had time and knowledge to come up with a force defence boosting talisman (which can be the second amulet he wears, his strange looking earring or virtually everything else).

Did I deny this? MY POINT IS: ON PAPER MALAK IS STRONGER.

Then you have no point because Kun totally trashes Malak in a lightsaber fight and is almost unaffected by Malak's possible force skills.

The fact is that after this battle where Revan beat that Malak twice, he becomes even stronger, due to having the most dark side knowledge since the ancient Sith themselves. So assuming that Revan has the same stats like Exar abd the battle is still described as epic and vicious, he barley beats Malak, then he gets a significant power upgrade...making him stronger then his previous incarnation.

Kun would clearly destroy Malak in a lightsaber fight without having Revan's gimmicks to do so. So what is your point again ? Revan's already more powerful than he was as a Dark Lord. So from that point on he just gained knowledge. Which is nice. But you're arguing stats here. Revan's stats won't change from regaining his prior knowledge in terms of force powers and his Dark Side abilities won't exceed that of a SF boosted Malak. And his lightsaber skills also won't increase. Hence Kun would still wipe the floor with Revan in a lightsaber duel as he would do with Malak. And in a force contest Kun would have his amulets. With a +20 skill in range weapon he would even hit Yoda with 20 % of his hits (ranged attack). Somebody with Malaks defence rating would even be hit with a chance of 65 % by that blasts. So Kun blasts twice and Revan is toast ?

I don't have to: you can do it in the game.

You can also successfully hit Malak with grenades in the game...

"It seemed the teachings contained withing the single Holocron surpassed those of the Academys entire archives. Revan had discovered many rituals of the ancient Sith...Bane could barley wrap his mind around their awesome potential...some rituals were so terrible...so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith Master...that he doubted he would ever use them." - POD

Thats a sample of the shit Revan knew as a Dark Lord and your saying that knowledge, along with his Jedi knowledge that Vandar said he had an insatiable appetite for combined with his current incarnation wouldn't be much stronger?

Already dealt with. You want to argue stats here.

As for your other little essay: what don't you get? I'm using this as LeeLand Chee said they should be used as a "scale" to compare characters, as they should be used. I'm omitting ithe actual gamepley aspect of it (involving random chance) hence why I didn't post something like you did. And where the hell did you get Kuns armour stats? It seems like you just picked the best ones from the book and gave them to him.

First: The producers of the Game say the stats aren't canon because they have to limit all the Jedi to give non-Jedi a chance against them. It doesn't matter what Mr Chee says unless he has more insight in the RPG than the makers of the RPG which I doubt.

Second: That armor is Exar Kun's light battle suit.

And a sidenote:

Secondly I don't see how you embarrassed me, as I didn't make mistakes and have covered all the bases when it comes to inconsistencies as most of the stats Nai is bitching about come from the WotC website and what they displayed is not canon.

The stats on the WotC website are just as canon as everything you can find in the RPG Sourcebooks because they are produced by WotC in case you didn't notice it. As I said: Either you accept them or you deny them all but argue based on them if they fit your opinion and argue against them if they don't support you is stupid.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Or to be more precise:
Kun: Attack (max) +21 / Defence 26
Malak: Attack (max) +23 / Defence 26

So the more correct stats become like this:

Kun: Attack (max) +21 / Defence 26
Malak: Attack (max) +26 / Defence 26

Originally posted by Borbarad
Kun - armor stats:

DR: 10
Max Dex Bonus: +3
Armor Check Penalty: –4
Speed: (10 m)
Weight: 14 kg

DR: 5
Max Dex Bonus: +4
Armor Check Penalty: –3
Speed: (10 m)
Weight: 5 kg

Now the comparison is more clear.

And some more important things to consider are:

Melee Stats:

STR of Malak = 20
STR of Kun = 17

DEX of Malak = 14
DEX of Kun = 16

According to these stats, Malak has higher chance to hit Kun in a Melee duel. Though Kun will have higher chance to defend but he has less chance to hit Malak. But Malak can also use "Sith Rage" ability to increase his melee damage when desired.

Force Stats:

WIS of Malak = 15
WIS of Kun = 11

CHA of Malak = 20
CHA of Kun = 13

There is a massive difference between the Force attack/defence potential of Malak and Kun.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Now it looks like this
Kun hits Malak by throwing a 6 or above = 70 % hit chance (10 % crit)
Malak hits Kun by throwing a 4 or above = 80 % hit chance (10 % crit)

Originally posted by Borbarad
Assuming average damage based on formula (n+1)/ 2:
Malak 7d8 + 5 (assuming 4.5 for every d8) = 36.5 (37)
Kun 2x(5d8+3) (assuming 4.5 for every d8) = 51
Now damage reduction moving in: Malak takes 46 (51-5)points of damage every time Kun hits while Kun takes 27 (37-10) points of damage for every time Malak hits him.

After 10 rounds of fighting (7 Hits by Kun, 8 Hits by Malak) it would look like that:
Damage done to Malak: 7x46 = 322
Damage done to Kun: 8x27 = 216 (296 without damage reduction if somebody wants to state that Kun doesn't wear his armor for some reason).

So Kun statistically kicks Malak's sorry SF powered ass in a lightsaber duel by dealing out much more damage per hit and (with damage reduction) taking far less damage from Malak.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Force powers ?
Again based on the formula (n+1)/2 for a d20:
Average dice throw = (20+1)/2 = 10.5 ~11

Hit chances Malak on Kun (force defence 21):
Affect Mind +9, chance of success against Kun: virtually 0 %
Control Mind +14, chance of success against Kun: 10 %
Fear +20, chance of success against Kun: 40 %
Force Grip +18, chance of success against Kun: 30 %
Force Lightning +24, chance of success against Kun: 60 %
Force Strike +11, chance of success against Kun: 0 %
Move Object +15, chance of success against Kun: 15 %

Hit chances Kun on Malak (force defence 15):
Affect Mind +13, chance of success against Malak: 30 %
Alchemy +24, (assuming those includes his Sorcery skills as they aren't listed) chance of success against Malak: 90 %
Force Push +14, chance of success against Malak: 40 %
Move Object +14, chance of success against Malak: 40 %

WIS and CHA actually determine the effectiveness of Force attacks and defence against opponents. And Darth Malak has clear advantage in this regard.

I will admit that my understanding of d20 rules is not exceptional but I do know some of it's basics, which you failed to consider in this case.

In a saber duel Revan and Malak are both unknowns so Kun would win that, but Kun is going to trash SF Malak and Revan? I agree he would beat Malak but with difficulty, but trash him? And trash Revan? Of course Revan's points have to go up when he became a jedi again since he became even MORE powerful, now that he has ancient sith+jedi knowledge. Don't think Kun will be trashing Revan with force abilities.

Q: It seems as if Jedi characters aren't capable of what we see in the movies. First, they never have enough skill points to be very good at many skills. Second, the vitality point costs for Force powers are so high that you can hardly afford to use them. Am I missing something?

A: No, you're not missing anything. The problem is that if Jedi and other Force-using classes were played as they appear on-screen, they'd be virtually superhuman, completely overshadowing the other PCs. We tried to find a happy medium between doing the things we see on screen and maintaining balance with non-Force-users: Thus, the Force is capable of amazing things, but you're unlikely to be very good at very many Force skills, and you don't have enough vitality to keep it up for very long. Jedi have to be conservative with the Force, using it only when they really need it.

Link please.

And even in your little mini battle between Malak and Kun you did it wrong as said WIS and CHA go into how effective force attacks are and Malak has about the same Battlemind and a higher Enhance ability, meaning he'd hit Kun more often then not and have a higher connect rate then you gave him. And are you using the armour from KOTOR the armour that was mass produced and Kun may or may not have worn? And as said the dueling stats are out of wack too. Pray tell how Kun wouold thrash Malak with the revisions Legend has posted which can be found here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/CotFPreview5

In a saber duel Revan and Malak are both unknowns so Kun would win that

What underful logic... Anyway, i am tired to say this countless times BUT, hadn't Canderous stated that Revan was the greatest WARRIOR the galaxy had ever seen, the same Canderous who fought with the mandalorians in the GSW and saw Mandalore fighting Ullic Quel-Droma, who was, stated by the narrator, equal to Exar Kun in lightsaber skill?
This would make Revan>Ullic and Revan>Exar...

Anyway, i am tired of ALL this discussions about Revan in everywhere... They are making me sick...

I love when it these wannabe' debaters come in and act like they know shit about what they're talking about.

Originally posted by kamhal
What underful logic.

What "underful" spelling.

The default position would be to place Kun and Ulic above Revan in dueling prowess since there's little to nothing known about his. If a versus match like that arose, money goes on Kun and Ulic because there's no evidence to suggest he'd win and it isn't made for "unknown" guesses. Simply put.

It doesn't mean in actuality that Kun is greater than Revan, but by versus forum rule, he is (at least until more information is revealed).

Anyway, i am tired to say this countless times

I've already debunked this entire argument, so why would you repeatedly post a flawed theory?

BUT hadn't Canderous stated that Revan was the greatest WARRIOR the galaxy had ever seen

True, he did say that, but has Canderous seen every "warrior" the galaxy has?

Short answer: No, ergo he's full of shit.

Long answer: Of course not, ergo it's hyperbole at best. Furthermore, Canderous is a fallible character, and much like the majority of characters in KotOR, he kisses Revan's ass. It's completely illogical to assume that because Canderous Ordo (of all people) said it, it must be true.

Additionally,

Originally posted by Advent
You do realize that "greatest" is ambiguous, right? Insomuch as it doesn't put him over anyone else in terms of power. One can interpret his words as Revan's the overall greatest (with achievements, and strategic adeptness in mind). It hardly means that Revan is stronger than Ulic.

You have no point, QED.

the same Canderous who fought with the mandalorians in the GSW and saw Mandalore fighting Ullic Quel-Droma

To assert that because A says B is the best and A has seen C fight, ergo B > C (as fact) is fallacious.

For one, even if Canderous did see Ulic fighting, it means jack shit. He only uses a lightsaber to destroy the then Mandalore's mount, afterwards they fight with weapons foreign to Qel-Droma. So there'd be absolutely no way to say that Revan is better in terms of the lightsaber based on that.

And besides, the fact of the matter is that the quote itself holds no value.

who was, stated by the narrator, equal to Exar Kun in lightsaber skill?

Prior to Kun developing his double bladed lightsaber and unique style.

This would make Revan>Ullic and Revan>Exar.

Appeal to authority, logical fallacy.

No it doesn't. It doesn't even make Revan greater than Ulic, even if we were to operate under the assumption that Canderous has seen Ulic fight against Mandalore.

More importantly, Canderous' words are of a fallible nature and are subject to bias, exaggerations, etc. It's completely idiotic to blindly assume an opinion is correct (when it isn't backed up by anything).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You have actually made a mistake in the case of Malak's stats here. According to the "Champions of the Force" based Malak stats, his Attack (max) is actually +26.

So the more correct stats become like this:

Kun: Attack (max) +21 / Defence 26
Malak: Attack (max) +26 / Defence 26

Ok. Seen that. But that wasn't my mistakes but the one of Styles who posted the stats.

Malak - armor stats:

DR: 5
Max Dex Bonus: +4
Armor Check Penalty: –3
Speed: (10 m)
Weight: 5 kg

Now the comparison is more clear.

The DSSB already lists that Damage Reduction of 5 and I already added that to my calculation...

And some more important things to consider are:

Melee Stats:

STR of Malak = 20
STR of Kun = 17

DEX of Malak = 14
DEX of Kun = 16

I'm afraid but those aren't important. Attack throw = d20 + additional bonus, defence = defence rating of the character. The corresponding informations are already included in the stats the RPG game uses.

According to these stats, Malak has higher chance to hit Kun in a Melee duel. Though Kun will have higher chance to defend but he has less chance to hit Malak. But Malak can also use "Sith Rage" ability to increase his melee damage when desired.

That was which we had before...

Force Stats:

WIS of Malak = 15
WIS of Kun = 11

CHA of Malak = 20
CHA of Kun = 13

There is a massive difference between the Force attack/defence potential of Malak and Kun.

Erm. The defence potential is actually based on the force defence skill, and Kun absolutely dominates Malak there.

Can you tell us that how did you came up with these figures?

Assuming average rolls for the d20 based on the formula (n+1)/2 with "n" being the number of sides the dice has. So that would be 10.5 rounded to 10 for a d20.

Re-do the math again by keeping all the above things in mind.

Really. If you want to go by the system as it is that gets all the more complicating. But ok.

The important stats are:
Malak
Atk +26
Def 26
Damage: 7d8+5
VP/WP 158/16

Kun
Atk +21
Def 26
Damage 2 x 5d8+3 (double blade)
VP/WP: 158/17

Going on:
Kun hits on a 5 or above (85 % chance)
Malak hits on a 2 or above (95 % chance)

Average damage (4.5 for every d8)
Kun: 5d8+3 x 2 = 46 (-5) = 46
Malak: 7d8+5 = 36.5 (-10) = 26.5 ~26

Now (again for the sake of an argument) assume that (based on the chances to hit) Malak misses the first and Kun misses the first two attacks. Kun has a higher INI Bonus so he begins. The Vitality points would go down like that:

Round 1: both 158
Round 2: M 158, K 158 (both missing)
Round 3: M 158, K 132 (Kun missing)
Round 4: M 112, K 106
Round 5: M 66, K 80
Round 6: M 20, K 54
Round 7: Malak vitality points reach 0 and his wound points are attacked: -20 VP / -26 of 16 WP. That means Malak is exactly dead there reaching a WP of -10.

So...Kun defeats Malak in a lightsaber duel and he does that quite comfortably. It doesn't change.

Your theory works only in the case of WIS and CHA of Malak and Kun being same and they are not.

WIS and CHA actually determine the effectiveness of Force attacks and defence against opponents. And Darth Malak has clear advantage in this regard.

Nope. The force defence skill is used to cancel enemy force attacks. Kun with his rediculous stat of +21 in that ability will cancel almost everything Malak might throw at him with the exception of Malak's force lightning (and even that would be pretty ineffective).

WIS and CHA just get important if Malak successfully attacks Kun in which case Kun would have to use a rescue throw against an attack that would depend on Malaks WIS, CHA (and level) partitially as far as I recall.

I will admit that my understanding of d20 rules is not exceptional but I do know some of it's basics, which you failed to consider in this case.

And that would be ?

@Styles:

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Link please.

CLICK

And even in your little mini battle between Malak and Kun you did it wrong as said WIS and CHA go into how effective force attacks are and Malak has about the same Battlemind and a higher Enhance ability, meaning he'd hit Kun more often then not and have a higher connect rate then you gave him.

Urm. He already hits Kun with the highest possible rate and the fact that they are virtually equal in that two force powers means that you won't have a bit of advantage gained by Malak due to this. Not to mention that force defence can be used against Battle Mind and the enchance ability which would give Kun another advantage.

And are you using the armour from KOTOR the armour that was mass produced and Kun may or may not have worn?

CLICK ME

Mass produced ? Obviously not. It's a single pieces. Kun may or may not have worn it ? Right. Who else should have worn an armor found on Yavin 4 and added that nice Dark Side Teint on it ? By the way Kun's stats ("dark armor", "+3 dex bonus"😉 lead to the suggestion that he was actually wearing it.

And as said the dueling stats are out of wack too. Pray tell how Kun wouold thrash Malak with the revisions Legend has posted which can be found here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=starwars/article/CotFPreview5 [/B]

The same way as I posted above which is estimating the worst case for Kun. Not that it matters if it won't be the case since the stats aren't canon and it's unknown how Revan did beat Malak. And that are the two points you can't argue which you're still trying.

Long answer: Of course not, ergo it's hyperbole at best. Furthermore, Canderous is a fallible character, and much like the majority of characters in KotOR, he kisses Revan's ass. It's completely illogical to assume that because Canderous Ordo (of all people) said it, it must be true.

😆 Right, are we talking about CANDEROUS? Or are you confusing him with Jar Jar? Canderous, "the most famous mandalorian of this sector", the new Mandalore after the Mandalorian Wars, the Canderous who laugh from Bastilla because she is caugh by the Black Vulkars? And do you say to me that he is using a HYPERBOLE? This is almost offending him. And besides, by DEFAULT, Revan>Kun since we have one very important soldier stating that Revan was the best.

By the way, tell me, why would i EVER prefer YOUR opinions to another cannon character opinions, one who is known to almost NEVER make a compliment? Because my dear bias friend, a character statement, if not showed false, beats EVERYTHING you have to say, EVER.

Also, i obviously wanted to type wonderful, but you see, keyboard it's no the same as handwriting, and if i type it fast, without checking for mistakes, sometimes some shit comes out. But, who cares about this when people like you can write it right but his speech is completly nonsense...

The same way as I posted above which is estimating the worst case for Kun. Not that it matters if it won't be the case since the stats aren't canon and it's unknown how Revan did beat Malak. And that are the two points you can't argue which you're still trying.

This is just to show the stupidity of some people. Right, one jedi knight against a Sith lord, and we have a vision from Malak lying down with Revan looking at him with his lightsaber turned on. Of course, only a fool would expect that Revan beat Malak in a single lightsaber duel...

I noticed you didn't respond to the majority of my post (likely because you can't without looking like a complete dolt), so here it is again.

Originally posted by Advent
I love when it these wannabe' debaters come in and act like they know shit about what they're talking about.

What "underful" spelling.

The default position would be to place Kun and Ulic above Revan in dueling prowess since there's little to nothing known about his. If a versus match like that arose, money goes on Kun and Ulic because there's no evidence to suggest he'd win and it isn't made for "unknown" guesses. Simply put.

It doesn't mean in actuality that Kun is greater than Revan, but by versus forum rule, he is (at least until more information is revealed).

I've already debunked this entire argument, so why would you repeatedly post a flawed theory?

Short answer: No, ergo he's full of shit.

Long answer: Of course not, ergo it's hyperbole at best. Furthermore, Canderous is a fallible character, and much like the majority of characters in KotOR, he kisses Revan's ass. It's completely illogical to assume that because Canderous Ordo (of all people) said it, it must be true.

To assert that because A says B is the best and A has seen C fight, ergo B > C (as fact) is fallacious.

For one, even if Canderous did see Ulic fighting, it means jack shit. He only uses a lightsaber to destroy the then Mandalore's mount, afterwards they fight with weapons foreign to Qel-Droma. So there'd be absolutely no way to say that Revan is better in terms of the lightsaber based on that.

And besides, the fact of the matter is that the quote itself holds no value.

Prior to Kun developing his double bladed lightsaber and unique style.

Appeal to authority, logical fallacy.

No it doesn't. It doesn't even make Revan greater than Ulic, even if we were to operate under the assumption that Canderous has seen Ulic fight against Mandalore.

More importantly, Canderous' words are of a fallible nature and are subject to bias, exaggerations, etc. It's completely idiotic to blindly assume an opinion is correct (when it isn't backed up by anything).

Originally posted by Advent
You do realize that "greatest" is ambiguous, right? Insomuch as it doesn't put him over anyone else in terms of power. One can interpret his words as Revan's the overall greatest (with achievements, and strategic adeptness in mind). It hardly means that Revan is stronger than Ulic.

Not that any of it matters, because just because Canderous (of all people) said it, doesn't make it so. It's nothing more than a sentiment coming from his mouth, which is subjective.

Refute it or drop the point.

Originally posted by kamhal
Right, are we talking about CANDEROUS? Or are you confusing him with Jar Jar?

Irrelevant misdirection.

Canderous, "the most famous mandalorian of this sector", the new Mandalore after the Mandalorian Wars, the Canderous who laugh from Bastilla because she is caugh by the Black Vulkars?

How is this even relevant, kamhal? Spouting off about Canderous' life means jack shit.

And do you say to me that he is using a HYPERBOLE?

Your grammar is almost as bad as your reasoning skills. Luckily at least the words you write sometimes make sense; although, the arguments themselves don't.

To answer the question: Yes. Your entire premise begs the question: has Canderous seen every "warrior" the galaxy has?

Which I've already answered,

Originally posted by Advent
Short answer: No, ergo he's full of shit.

Long answer: Of course not, ergo it's hyperbole at best. Furthermore, Canderous is a fallible character, and much like the majority of characters in KotOR, he kisses Revan's ass. It's completely illogical to assume that because Canderous Ordo (of all people) said it, it must be true.

Moreover,

Originally posted by Advent
You do realize that "greatest" is ambiguous, right? Insomuch as it doesn't put him over anyone else in terms of power. One can interpret his words as Revan's the overall greatest (with achievements, and strategic adeptness in mind). It hardly means that Revan is stronger than Ulic.

QED.

This is almost offending him.

Good, I hope he's turning over in his nonexistent grave.

And besides, by DEFAULT, Revan>Kun since we have one very important soldier stating that Revan was the best.

How is that even logical? I've already destroyed the argument, so you don't have a leg to stand on in making that claim. Read again and equip your spectacles:

Originally posted by Advent
To assert that because A says B is the best and A has seen C fight, ergo B > C (as fact) is fallacious.

For one, even if Canderous did see Ulic fighting, it means jack shit. He only uses a lightsaber to destroy the then Mandalore's mount, afterwards they fight with weapons foreign to Qel-Droma. So there'd be absolutely no way to say that Revan is better in terms of the lightsaber based on that.

More importantly, Canderous' words are of a fallible nature and are subject to bias, exaggerations, etc. It's completely idiotic to blindly assume an opinion is correct (when it isn't backed up by anything).

Refute it or drop the point.

By the way, tell me, why would i EVER prefer YOUR opinions to another cannon character opinions

Uh. Instead of redirecting the facts I presented, why don't you attempt to address them directly? I only mention this because you're heading into fallacious territory with this question.

Why would it matter who you believed? It doesn't change the facts, which are that Canderous is: a) a fallible character and b) exaggerating (or as I said, "full of shit"😉.

one who is known to almost NEVER make a compliment?

Dude, you're an idiot. This is largely irrelevant and means zilch. It doesn't matter if Canderous badmouthed every single being in the galaxy and verbally fellated Revan because he's still fallible.

Your entire argument revolves around Canderous' quote, which is a case of appeal to authority - in other words, it doesn't cement his words as truth.

Because my dear bias friend

1) I'm biased because you say I'm biased? Prove your claims or don't make them. I'll really enjoy you showing me something that isn't true.

2) Even if I were bias (towards/against who?), it'd still mean exactly squat. So you would have absolutely no point anyways.

3) I'm not your friend.

a character statement, if not showed false, beats EVERYTHING you have to say, EVER.

Appeal to authority and logical fallacy (so because Canderous says it, it must be true?).

Argument from ignorance and logical fallacy (because it hasn't been proven false, it must be true?).

You're really racking 'em up today, kamhal.

Also, i obviously wanted to type wonderful, but you see, keyboard it's no the same as handwriting and if i type it fast, without checking for mistakes, sometimes some shit comes out.

"Shit" comes out of your posts no matter what, kamhal. Don't blame your idiocy on the innocent keyboard.

But, who cares about this when people like you can write it right but his speech is completly nonsense...

That entire sentence is completely nonsense, care to go back to the drawing boards?

Edit:

Originally posted by kamhal
This is just to show the stupidity of some people.

By "this" you mean the post you made, right? Otherwise it just wouldn't make sense.

Right, one jedi knight against a Sith lord, and we have a vision from Malak lying down with Revan looking at him with his lightsaber turned on. Of course, only a fool would expect that Revan beat Malak in a single lightsaber duel...

You're right, only a fool would assume that, because there's several other viable options such as Revan killing Malak via the Force and only dueling for a single pass of blades.

And before anyone says "ZOMG, HE HAD HIS LIGHTSABER OUT THIS MEANS HE KILLED HIM WITH IT! U R WRONG ADDVENT", I'd direct you to this scan:

Count Dooku has his lightsaber still drawn when he blasts Sora Bulq with Force lightning, so simply because a lightsaber is active and in hand doesn't mean it was used extensively or that the opposition was struck down by it.

The point is that the circumstances are unknown, and like Borbarad said, it's a point in which you can't argue against.

What, all that post was too me? You are right, i actually didn't read half of it. Anway:

For one, even if Canderous did see Ulic fighting, it means jack shit. He only uses a lightsaber to destroy the then Mandalore's mount, afterwards they fight with weapons foreign to Qel-Droma. So there'd be absolutely no way to say that Revan is better in terms of the lightsaber based on that.

And besides, the fact of the matter is that the quote itself holds no value.

Prior to Kun developing his double bladed lightsaber and unique style

Hadn't ullic fight against Mandalore with a sword? Isn't this melee fight?... Also, you still have to proof that the new lightsaber style from Exar Kun was better then his previous one. Also, he had what, 6 months to develop it? Hmm...

Anyway, just to light your thoughts, what Canderous said was, among several things:

"We had never met one like you before, and never since"

and

"We lost to the GREATEST SINGLE WARRIOR the galaxy had ever known"

Notice the words GREATEST SINGLE WARRIOR? Hmm...

Ok, why am I using Canderous? Obviously i want to use someone who met both of them, and so, Canderous is the obvious choice. Other obvious choice is Jolle Bindo, but since it was never asked a opinion from who he thought it was the most powerful one, we can't have his opinion. The only thing you can hear from him is that:

Revan- " Who is this Exar Kun?"
Jolle- "Ah. Exar was a jedi who was... corrupted... by gosts of the old sith..."
Revan- "Sort of like Revan. I mean, me. I assume he was killed ?"

Then the conversation goes on. Also, Jolee never denie that Exar Kun wasn't "like Revan"...

Also, the other reference we have to compare Exar Kun's time and Revan's time is Duron Quel-Droma's vision. Let's not forget that this happens 3 years after the GSW, and in this comic you can see that:

1- Vrook knew Ullic Quel-Droma, by his comments
2- Duron have a vision from Malak, Bastila, and a possible face for what can be Revan, and i would like to point what that Duron says "Another vision...Worse this time...Worlds dying...SITH SO POWERFUL"

We don't know if he is talking about Malak or Revan but even if he is talking about Malak it's common knowledge that Revan>Malak.

To finish, i would like to point out that in this same comic Vrook seems to show that he knew Ullic Quel-Droma, yet, let's not forget that Master Vrook Lamar said to Revan: "The force flows through you like no STUDENT we had ever seen".

Anyway, i would like you to noitce that Vrook and Canderous were 2 of most unlikely people to make a compliment to anyone, so say that any of them is exagerating is comical to say the least.

Ok, with ALL this, tell me, why should i accept your opinions when all the links i can use to join the KOTOR time with the GST time shows always the same?

Appeal to authority, logical fallacy

This is not a fallacy if we are using a credible authority... If i appeal to the authority from a George Lucas about Star Wars or a doctor about medicine, or a coach like Mourinho about football, i am not even close to use a fallacy.

By the way, what Canderous said, as far as it's not showed false, IS canon. He states something which the logical reality of the time shows as true, and nothing shows the countrary, so, you have no way to show he is lying.

Also, i hope you know most of argumentation is built with informal logic, which uses incorrect yet strong args...

Example: i dig most of my terrain and i didn't find gold, in this region it was never found gold and this terrain lacks the correct geological characteristcs to have gold. So, this land has not gold. This is formally wrong and it's a fallacy, yet, informaly it's a strong arg...

[quote]"ZOMG, HE HAD HIS LIGHTSABER OUT THIS MEANS HE KILLED HIM WITH IT! U R WRONG ADDVENT[quote]

You are really a retard. Of course no one has 100% sure about their fight, but in this case this is the most logical conclusion, so, why would i use the most illogical thoughts, like Revan throwing a grenade to a sith lord, when all we have seems to point out in this direction?

By the way, i realy don't a give shit to write 100% correct grammar because:

1) I am in a forum talking about something as trivial as Star Wars
2) I am not even a native english speaker

But, let me se, can you speak french? Or portuguese? Spanish perhaps? Guess what, i have knowledge from several languages and this isn't even my area of study (since i am a science man), yet my use of english is good enough to blast you to hell with my argumentation.

It seems you have to refuge and rely on this kind of Ad Hominem fallacy since you have no args to use against me...