Kenobi knew Anakin like the back of his hand, likewise with Anakin, however, that sheer fact alone would prolong the duel, coupled with Obi-Wan's Soresu, and that he needed to resort to giving ground, and other various tricks (lava skating, platform jumping, etc.).
The AotC novel, which makes it clear that Count Dooku had to work harder to keep Anakin at bay than he had to work for Obi-Wan.
And Anakin wasn't? He, unlike Obi-Wan, was blasted by Force lightning, aside from the fighting he did on Geonosis (in the arena, and the attempted rescue).
Exar Kun above Anakin Skywalker, Yoda, Mace Windu, and Darth Sidious?
Kol Skywalker above Anakin Skywalker, Yoda, Darth Sidious, Count Dooku, Mace Windu, and General Grievous?
Ulic Qel-Droma above Yoda, Darth Sidious, and Anakin Skywalker?
Tulak Hord above all, save for one?
DS, Why do rank Tulak Hord,Kyle,Kas'im, and Darth Bane higher than ROTS Anakin and ROTS Mace?, Im just wondering i don't know much about Hord other than Traya thought he was good. And Depa is better than Obsession Asajj??
Right.
Yoda battled Emperor Palpatine on equal footing, forced Count Dooku to retreat on two occasions [one of which was on Vjun, a planet steeped in the dark side], and evaded the attacks of three powerful Jedi while being unarmed.
Emperor Palpatine butchered three of the 'greatest swordsmen' in the Jedi Order's history in seconds, the third of which he killed while simultaneously engaged in combat against Mace Windu [the guy who would eventually disarm him], creator of the deadliest lightsaber form.
Mace Windu created the aforementioned deadliest lightsaber form, and was the only person to ever mastered it, defeated 'the most powerful Sith in history' [and the guy who butchered the aforementioned great duelists], and forced Dooku to retreat on Boz Pity.
Owning some psuedo-Sith and a few Stormtroopers is cool, but shit compared to these feats. Advent and AC are right. Your lists and assertions are crap.
I'll take note that you didn't address my entire post.
Originally posted by darthsith19
Anakin knew Obi-Wan just as well as Obi-Wan knew Anakin.
Originally posted by Advent
Kenobi knew Anakin like the back of his hand, likewise with Anakin
Do I hear an echo?
I already mentioned that, but thanks for repeating me. However, I see you fail to note that that factor alone would've prolonged the duel. In addition, Anakin wasn't properly honing his emotions into "weapons" (as they are so named), and he certainly wasn't thinking clearly, as was the case against Count Dooku.
Therefore, seeing as the circumstances were vastly different, you have absolutely no logical basis for claiming that Obi-Wan is greater than Count Dooku.
Then how come Anakin and Kenobi were close in ROTS
They really aren't that close. Anakin, in his perfect state of mind, is basically the end all of lightsaber duelists in the movie saga. The same cannot be said for Obi-Wan, who's below someone like Count Dooku. In terms of pure skill, Anakin is definitely above Obi-Wan.
Why don't you take a look at your list, you have different ratings for different types of Anakin. Against Count Dooku, they didn't seem close in the least bit - even when it was two on one, the novelization makes it clear that it's mostly Anakin doing the most damage. Against each other, of course they are going to seem relatively close, because:
1.) "Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior." (Revenge of the Sith, Ch 20)
Obi-Wan knew Anakin like the back of his hand, it's quite apparent that that was the main reason he was able to last so long. While the reverse is also true, the duel would be drawn out nonetheless. Especially if you consider the below.
2.) Anakin wasn't thinking clearly at that time (which I'd assume is due to Obi-Wan being on board with Padmé, coupled along with him becoming a dark sider). While Obi-Wan was fully aware of what he had to do, and aside from that, he's much more wise, and smarter than Skywalker when he's in that type of condition.
3.) Obi-Wan resorted to numerous tricks, so that he never actually had to face the full might of Anakin head-on. As we see, most of the time they were fighting up until they leave the control room on Mustafar, Anakin clearly had the upper hand.
4.) His Soresu must've been good in situations like the above, where Anakin cannot give full force to his attacks (as Obi-Wan doesn't even have to move an inch to be effective).
But, on paper, Anakin is the superior to Obi-Wan, and they aren't close.
if Anakin was already ahead of Kenobi in AOTC
He was, as the omniscient narrator states as much.
that would mean that Kenobi progressed as much during the war as Anakin did, which doesn't make sense.
That's pretty simple, it's because you're operating under a false premise, ergo its bound not to compute.
I'll go so far as to say Obi-Wan isn't even near Anakin's true level of skill, and that's backed up by evidence that been spread around here by myself over the months. So, you're wrong. It means Obi-Wan progressed, just not nearly as much as Anakin, and that does make sense (in addition, see above).
He had a full minute to recover, I doubt the lightning was hurting him much at that point - in ROTJ Luke was zapped for a lot longer and was able to stand up pretty much as soon as the lightning ceased.
You're even denser than I thought.
Compare Luke's lightning, which we know had minimal ill effects, to lightning that a nigh fully trained Jedi Knight couldn't get up from.
Logic dictates based on that alone Count Dooku's attack was far more potent.
Aside from that fact, Luke was only squirming around like the worm he is. Anakin was caught with force lightning, and was force pushed into the wall. Let's see what the excerpt from the AotC novelization says about it, shall we?
"Dooku's hand shot out toward the charging Jedi, sending forth a Force push as solid as any stone wall, and a burst of blue Force lightning. With a wave of his hand, Dooku sent Anakin flying across the room, to crash into a distant wall, where he slumped down, dazed."
Now, please tell me which display of power was more effective? Also, I don't see why Anakin would've still be laying there had he not still been stunned, it makes about as much sense as your entire argument (none).
Hunger and thirst, however, cannot be gotten rid of my resting.
Where does it even say he'd been there for "days"? Proof, now. I'd like to know, considering from the location Anakin took, it was only one parsec away.
Why not?
Why are you asking me to prove the negative? You're the one that made the assertion. But, since I'm feeling generous:
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/448757_1-rots-anakin-vs-exar-kun http://www.killermovies.com/forums/448445_1-exar-kun-runs-the-pt-gauntlet
Double thread QED.
I destroyed all arguments regarding that, now its your turn to do what you were supposed to do in the first place, and provide proof.
Only ROTS Sidious, btw, DE Sidious would beat him.
See above. That's complete and utter bullshit. I asked for viable evidence, not your asinine opinion. Put up or shut up.
Just by a little, yes.
Ditto the above, put up or shut up. Your blanket opinion isn't considered "viable evidence", otherwise Count Dooku has "no true skills" because LORDSIDIOUS01 stated as much.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=449631 http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=8560914#post8560914
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=451211&highlight=userid%3A66957
Triple thread QED. Try again.
I don't see why not.
Then take off your blindfold, you blind bat, and equip your spectacles.
Double ditto the above. This is exactly the reason AcStyles and myself believe you to be such a joke of a debater.
It's obvious you cannot back up any of your wild and crazy assumptions (most of which have already been torn to shreds by yours truly), elsewise you would've done as I asked, and shown me concrete evidence, or at the least, one shred of usable evidence.
Since you have not complied with my request (and the basic rules of debating), I'm forced to assume you have no clue what you're talking about as usual, and are merely pulling these numbers out of your ass. So, once you stop flinging this shit around like a monkey, get back to me.
I don't mean to be rude, but this is seriously pathetic on your end.
It was stated that compared to him, the great masters since were children playing with toys.
Funny, because as I recall, this is what she said:
"If you were to face an ancient Sith in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters."
She was talking about the ancient Sith as a whole, so all the ancient Sith should be able to tool KotOR-era swordsman in combat, because Kreia said so?
Although, I do know which quote you're referring to, and it places him as the greatest among the ancient Sith, and then obviously correlates down into said era, nonetheless, what I asked above would still stand regardless.
As this is all that why know about him, and there's nothing to suggest that this isn't true, why wouldn't he be that high?
You answered your own question. It's all we know regarding Tulak Hord. We have no way of finding out if this is true or not (that compared to those of later eras, he's that much better). There's absolutely zilch that says it is true, besides the word of a fallible, third party character, who wasn't even so much as a fetus when he was alive.
And nothing states he's any better than those of generations that came after KotOR, even if we go arguendo and assume it to be true. That's why. Your logic is extremely flawed.
The rest is just blatant, repetitive bullshit which has already been addressed, and wasn't even to me. So, I'm done, and so is your argument.
[Bail Organa] And so it is... [/Bail Organa]
Yoda battled Emperor Palpatine on equal footing, forced Count Dooku to retreat on two occasions [one of which was on Vjun, a planet steeped in the dark side], and evaded the attacks of three powerful Jedi while being unarmed.
Emperor Palpatine butchered three of the 'greatest swordsmen' in the Jedi Order's history in seconds, the third of which he killed while simultaneously engaged in combat against Mace Windu [the guy who would eventually disarm him], creator of the deadliest lightsaber form.
Mace Windu created the aforementioned deadliest lightsaber form, and was the only person to ever mastered it, defeated 'the most powerful Sith in history' [and the guy who butchered the aforementioned great duelists], and forced Dooku to retreat on Boz Pity.
I already mentioned that, but thanks for repeating me. However, I see you fail to note that that factor alone would've prolonged the duel. In addition, Anakin wasn't properly honing his emotions into "weapons" (as they are so named), and he certainly wasn't thinking clearly, as was the case against Count Dooku.
Obi-Wan knew Anakin like the back of his hand, it's quite apparent that that was the main reason he was able to last so long. While the reverse is also true, the duel would be drawn out nonetheless. Especially if you consider the below.
Anakin wasn't thinking clearly at that time (which I'd assume is due to Obi-Wan being on board with Padmé, coupled along with him becoming a dark sider). While Obi-Wan was fully aware of what he had to do, and aside from that, he's much more wise, and smarter than Skywalker when he's in that type of condition.
3.) Obi-Wan resorted to numerous tricks, so that he never actually had to face the full might of Anakin head-on. As we see, most of the time they were fighting up until they leave the control room on Mustafar, Anakin clearly had the upper hand.
4.) His Soresu must've been good in situations like the above, where Anakin cannot give full force to his attacks (as Obi-Wan doesn't even have to move an inch to be effective).
He was, as the omniscient narrator states as much.
Logic dictates based on that alone Count Dooku's attack was far more potent.
Aside from that fact, Luke was only squirming around like the worm he is. Anakin was caught with force lightning, and was force pushed into the wall. Let's see what the excerpt from the AotC novelization says about it, shall we?
Now, please tell me which display of power was more effective? Also, I don't see why Anakin would've still be laying there had he not still been stunned, it makes about as much sense as your entire argument (none).
Where does it even say he'd been there for "days"? Proof, now. I'd like to know, considering from the location Anakin took, it was only one parsec away.
Yeah, and Kol would beat Sidious
You have this little habit of making assertions without ever supporting them. Welcome to the real world; Kol couldn't beat Yoda simply because you say so. In fact, the entire point of this argument was for you to actually prove up, and yet all you do is keep saying: "Kol could beat Yoda!" like a broken record without ever elaborating upon the proof.
and are you saying that Dooku could beat Kol?
Count "I've-refined-Makashi-for-eight-decades-and-am-considered-the-Temple's-most-learned-student-and-the-greatest-of-the-Lost-Twenty-as-well-as-being-considered-"one of the greatest Jedi Masters in the Order's twenty-five thousand year history"-and-an-"even greater Sith Lord" Dooku? Yes, I think Dooku would beat him. In fact, I think it's a no-brainer.
And Yoda just evaded their atatcks, he didn't actually beat all of them at once.
Advent's right; I definately hear an echo, because that's exactly what I said.
If we really use that battle as proof then ROTS Sidious is above anybody with a lightsaber except NJO Luke.
You compose some of the greatest [examples of bullshit] arguments I've ever seen... I'm putting the damn fight into perspective. Sidious butchered three of the Order's finest (in their history) in seconds, the last of which, he did so while being engaged with Mace Windu - the creator of the deadliest lightsaber form in history - and he then proceeded to put him on the defensive.
Oh, and this is when he hadn't touched a lightsaber in a decade.
I see Kol doing the same.
You see Kol beating Sidious, forcing Dooku to retreat, and creating the deadliest lightsaber form ever? All this by virtue of no proof. Get some damn glasses, if that's what you see.
Dumbsith, I'm rather tired of you getting your cock up over Kol. It's rather sad, especially considering AcStyles, and I (and I've done it on numerous occasions), have torn your petty arguments to shreds.
Originally posted by darthsith19
So what if Anakin wasn't properly honing his emotions and wasn't thinking clearly, yes this did him in in the end but for the rest of the duel it wouldn't have played a factor.
That makes no sense. It "did him in in the end", but no, that has no effect otherwise. Please. His state of mind was a determinant throughout the entire fight, he was willing to take more risks than usual, and he wasn't fighting as he had been against Count Dooku (which you yourself have acknowledged, so that defeats your point in itself, QED).
Why would Kenobi knowing Anakin draw the duel out if Anakin knew Kenobi equally as well?
Aside from the fact that they basically know what the other will do, and their movements, it would definitely prolong the battle insomuch as Anakin wouldn't have been completely applying that fact to its utmost capabilities (since his mind was warped). Which gives Obi-Wan the advantage.
Now, the same could not be said for Anakin as he was against Tyranus, nor during the raid on the Jedi temple, considering Padmé wasn't present, and thus could not influence his mind to the degree it had on Mustafar where Obi-Wan arrives (and he believes she is betraying him). So, that means you had Kenobi fighting against an Anakin who's fullest skills wouldn't have been displayed.
So what, if Anakin wasn't able to control his emotions and Kenobi was then it's a credit to Kenobi's power, and one against Anakin's.
No, it's an added point to Obi-Wan's self-restraint, not "power". And this matters greatly, because Anakin at that time clearly wasn't appropriately honing his emotions into "weapons". He wasn't thinking clearly, which he had been against Count Dooku. This is a factor that would've had an undeniable effect on the duel itself.
Yes, Anakin did have the upper hand, but not by much, as I've already stated, it was close. And Obi-Wan's use of tricks only adds to his power, if he was smart enough to use tricks and Anakin wasn't.
What's with you and creaming your pants just to write "adds to his [Obi-Wan's] power"? It's only a one up on his tactical abilities against a confused madman. On paper, his skill is inferior.
Anyways, you're missing the point, the duel between Obi-Wan and Anakin was vastly different than the bout between Anakin and Count Dooku, I've listed the majority of causes as to why Obi-Wan would've lasted longer. Ergo, your basis for asserting that Kenobi is a more skilled swordsman than Dooku is invalid.
Why wouldn't Anakin be able to give his full force to his attacks?
During such events like the lava skating, the platform jumping, tightrope fighting, they was no possible way for Anakin to utilize his full efficiency of his form. He relies a lot on his brute strength, so without having two feet on the ground, or being able to step forward (thus creating more force), his usage of Djem So wouldn't be at the top of its game.
What the hell are you talking about, Obi-Wan not having to move an inch to be effective? If he didn't move he'd be dead!
If you haven't figured it out yet (and obviously someone with your inference abilities wouldn't), I'm referring to his form. Obi-Wan when using his Soresu does not have to move to properly use his form to its greatest effectiveness. This is contrary to Anakin, who would given his employment of physical strength in his bouts.
To explain further so even a caveman such as yourself can understand, I'll put it like this: Obi-Wan can stand still against his opponent, and this does not restrict his form's abilities in any way. It does for Anakin, though.
Just because Anakin fought better against Dooku doesn't mean that he's stronger.
In a situation with absolutely no extenuating circumstances? It certainly does.
Still, I'm waiting for your end of proof that Obi-Wan possessed more talent as of AotC than Anakin, which you've yet to do as per expected.
What logic?
See below, logic in general. Something you obviously know nothing about.
So now ypou're saying that being pushed into a wall does more damage that being electrocuted for over a minute? Right.
Strawman argument, logical fallacy.
I didn't say simply a force push alone is greater, I said that the potency of the lightning attack was far greater, and being pushed so hard that it felt like a stone wall, only then to get knocked into a wall will be more injurious.
Sidious damaged Luke more than Dooku damaged Anakin
That's obviously not true, as logic is on my side. Refute the logic, or don't comment at all. Let's see:
Question: Which character was hurt more?
A. Luke Skywalker, because he gets up after a few seconds.
B. Anakin Skywalker, because he gets up after a minute.
C. They were both hurt the same.
This is multiple choice, so take your time.
Answer: B.
Given that Anakin was out of the battle for longer, it's only proper to assume that its because he was feeling more ill effects, especially considering Luke recovers in mere seconds, when its likely Anakin has better potential healing powers at that point (considering his years of formal training).
Anakin didn't get up because he was to hurt to fight, he wasnted to recover before engaging Dooku.
Sure, he just sits there while his friend, and master is on the obvious losing end of the battle. Anakin would've gone right back into the fight had he been able to, considering his extremely reckless nature alone.
Also, if the attack by Tyranus wasn't as powerful, he should have been ready to go in seconds, too. Luke was able to carry Darth Vader for Buddha knows how long just seconds after getting blasted "for a minute", and from an attack that was did "more damage". It would be only natural that Anakin would've gotten up first, going by your twisted logic.
Are we to assume that he ate of drank anything after his fight with Jango?
There's really no way of knowing (as no educated speculation can be made in this case), so it's futile to say he did, as well as that he didn't. Because of that, I'm not going to follow your assumptions which are based on absolutely nothing.
When he fought Jango, Anakin and Padme were just leaving for Tatioone. They were there for at least an entire day, possibly longer. I suppose it was probably only about 2 days without food or water, assuming he didn't eat or drink after fighting Jango
See above, your "two day" assumption isn't sturdy, so there's no reason to believe as fact that it was two days.
try going without food or water for 2 days, it will weaken you greatly.
Oh, please.
Try defeating an army of Stormtroopers, you will die. We're not force-sensitive, and we have no idea if that even affects them nearly as much, given Kreia was able to go without the essentials for some time using the Force. Ki-Adi-Mundi was able to heal his broken arm, so its obvious some of this effects can be greatly lessened with the power of the Force (hence, why the power to destroy a planet is insignificant to it, hah).
Absolutely shit suggests he was brought down by this, seeing his display of abilities in the Geonosis arena.
That makes no sense. It "did him in in the end", but no, that has no effect otherwise. Please. His state of mind was a determinant throughout the entire fight, he was willing to take more risks than usual, and he wasn't fighting as he had been against Count Dooku (which you yourself have acknowledged, so that defeats your point in itself, QED).
how would taking more risks be a determinant throughout the entire fight when obiwan was only able to capitalise on one right at the end of the fight?
Originally posted by IOU
how would taking more risks be a determinant throughout the entire fight when obiwan was only able to capitalise on one right at the end of the fight?
He capitalized on more than that actually. Each time he would draw Anakin out, and give ground - basically controlling him like a dog on a leash. I, personally, don't believe that would've happened had he not been set on merely destroying Obi-Wan, without thought of anything else.
Though, that's rather on the lines of speculation, anyways. So, I suppose I should retract just that line (as the rest stands clearly). Also, on a different note, changing your typing style doesn't really prevent anyone from knowing that its you, Nebaris.
Advent is correct; Luke was simply being tortured. Count Dooku nailed a charging Anakin with a blast of lightning head on, and then flung him across the hangar into a wall. The combined impacts was obviously enough to subdue Anakin for a while, not calculating the time he likely spent simply regaining his wits.
I will also say, however, that Luke's recovery was not complete or absolute. Truce At Bakura dictates that Luke required emergancy care from the Alliance's medical droids and that his bones and skeletal structure went through calcification.
He capitalized on more than that actually. Each time he would draw Anakin out, and give ground - basically controlling him like a dog on a leash. I, personally, don't believe that would've happened had he not been set on merely destroying Obi-Wan, without thought of anything else.
im not asking how his mindset would be a determinant throughout the entire fight, but specifically risk taking, as im really not seeing how it would
Though, that's rather on the lines of speculation, anyways. So, I suppose I should retract just that line (as the rest stands clearly). Also, on a different note, changing your typing style doesn't really prevent anyone from knowing that its you, Nebaris.
🙄
Originally posted by darthsith19
NJO Luke: 10+
Tulak Hord: 10
Darth Bane (in his prime): 9.997 (would be just 9.9 or 9.85 without Orbalisks, but saying for Bane in his prime is total speculation, anyways).
DE Sidious: 9.88
DE Luke: 9.72 but 9.82 by Empire's End.
Kol Skywalker: 9.7
Kyle Katarn/Kas'im: 9.65
Exar Kun: 9.6
Mace Windu (AOTC/ROTS): 9.5
Ulic-Qel Droma: 9.45
ROTS Anakin in state he's in when he kills Dooku: 9.5
Yoda: 9.4
ROTS Sidious: 9.35
ROTS Vader (in normal state): 9.35
PoD Bane: 9.3
ROTS Anakin (in normal state): 8.999999864 (I'd give him a 9, Gillard says he's a 8 before turning to the dark side, though)
ROTS Obi-Wan: 8.99641
ROTS Count Dooku: 8.89
EU Genera; Grievous: 8.84 (should be above Dooku, imho, but LOE says Dooku can barely beat him).
Volfe Karkko: 8.84
Cin Drallig: 8.8
Darth Maul: 8.8
Kopecz: 8.65 (kind of a guess)
Anoon Bondara: 8.57 (he supposedly is ahead of Yoda, but I don't buy that. But he did seem pretty close to Maul - just because right away he could tell that maul was stronger means nothing since Qui-Gon could tell, too. If Anoon hadn't killed himself in an attempt to kill Maul, too, I suspect that the duel would have lasted a little while).
Darth Maul (in his not-at-full-strength state before duel at Theed): 8.48
Sora Bulq: 8.48
Depa Billaba: 8.46 (idk why, but I can't put her quite in Maul and Bulq's level, though she likely is).
ROTS General Grievous: 8.5
ESB Vader: 8.45
ANH Obi-Wan: 8.435
Obsession Asajj: 8.43
Agen Kolar: 8.43
Plo Koon: 8.43
Ki-Adi Mundi: 8.39
Quinlan Vos: 8.39
Luminara Unduli: 8.35
TPM Qui-Gon Jinn: 8.15
Kit Fisto: 8.0
Shaak Ti: 8.0
A'Sharad Hett (ROTS): 8.0
J'ai Maruk: 7.95
TPM "Dark Side" Kenobi: 7.95 (but tires down past 7 in under a minute)
Tsui Choi: 7.93
K'kruhk: 7.91
Aayla Secura: 7.85
Aurra Sing: 7.84
Roan Shryne: 7.77
Jastus Farr: 7.77
Tholme: 7.75
ROTJ Luke: 7.71
Glaive: 7.5
Roblio Darté: 7.3
Sirak: 7.3
AOTC Obi-Wan: 7.25
AOTC Anakin: 7.1
TPM Kenobi: 6.991
Bol Chatak: 6.85
Tol Skorr: 6.5 (stupid, he should be about 7.5 but he has to be about 6.5 for Quinlan to have pwnd him so badly).
Coleman Trebor: 6.5
ESB Luke Skywalker: 5.0 (by the end of the film)
Magnaguard: 3.0Jacen Solo: ???
Darth Revan: Low to mid 9?
Darth Malak: High 8, low 9?
Darth Traya: Low 9?
Darth Nihilus: Low to mid 8?
The Jedi Exile: ???I'm not going to try and do a Force list.
Anakin's skill doesn't improve by simply turning to the Dark Side. That's dumb logic. OT Vader should be higher.