Note that there is no proof what so ever that Sion is good with a lightsaber.Vader will at the very least defeat him. Vader>>Sion with a saber combat
when vader displays this kind of skill with a saber, get back to me
Note that there is no proof what so ever that Sion is good with a lightsaber.Vader will at the very least defeat him. Vader>>Sion with a saber combat
when vader displays this kind of skill with a saber, get back to me
no, im really not, i consider vaders lightsaber ability as being on par with people like count dooku, im really not underestimating him, thats what your doing with sion
and kreia was hardly 'very weak' at the time, she was clearly strong enough to conjure up such an impressive force camoflage, and she had had more than enough time to mostly heal her wounds gained from the battle leading up to the start of the game
i think its time you actually offer up some proof to your claims
My claims? I only said you are understimating Vader's skill. I'm not claiming anything. Kreia at least wanted Sion and the Exile to think she's not at all powerful at that time, that's pretty obvious. Oh, and maybe Kreia knew if Sion was able to damage her, her bond with the Exile and her would be stronger. That's just an assumption, though, I'm not saying it's definite.
My claims? I only said you are understimating Vader's skill. I'm not claiming anything.
Besides, that's not really impressive and Kreia was very weak at that time.
what do you call that then, genious?
Oh, and maybe Kreia knew if Sion was able to damage her, her bond with the Exile and her would be stronger. That's just an assumption, though, I'm not saying it's definite.
unsupported assumption, not to mention a blatant misinterpretation of the scene
she held up her lightsaber, and was in a battle stance, clearly with the intent of not actually having her hand sliced off
as evident by the monologue that she gave to sion, she clearly wanted to humiliate him, and rub in how he had learnt nothing, that was clearly her goal, nothing to do with her force bond
Originally posted by Darth HordSo I suppose killing most of the old Jedi Order, aswell as being the best Sith Assassin of his time and literally leading the Sith to victory against the Jedi Order proves he isn't good with a saber? Bullshit.
Note that there is no proof what so ever that Sion is good with a lightsaber.
Vader gets his ass handed to him. Vader may have helped hunt down what remained of the Jedi Order of his time(Who were clearly weaker than the ones in Sion's time), but there wasn't that much left TO hunt after O66 and his pre-suit purge of the Jedi Temple, Palpatine actually makes note of that in the ROTS novel.
Originally posted by Spartan ll
So I suppose killing most of the old Jedi Order, aswell as being the best Sith Assassin of his time and literally leading the Sith to victory against the Jedi Order proves he isn't good with a saber? Bullshit.
Maybe I did underestimate his saber skill but there is nothing suggest he is as good as Vader. I would like for you to name some of the powerful jedi he killed. We know he was a great assassin. But assassin don't usallt attack their enimies head on.(this maybe different but it is not known how he acts) Also note that there were barely any jedi left at that time. I say about a hundred left after the jedi civil war. Many others joined Revan's sith empire. (I also believe Traya says that as well) Nihilus killed a few dozen or little more than that at Katarr. The most notable of the master that were left were in hiding at the time of KOTOR2. Sion killed the one at Korriban. As for the other 3(Kavar,Zez-Kai Ell and Vrook Lamar) were killed by Traya. I will say it again Sion is better than I originally stated in the thread but he is not on Vader's level.
Originally posted by RiverollvOr you don't spend enough, n00b.
"Clearly weaker than the ones in Sion's time" ? "Leading the Sith to victory against the JO" ?Right... you clearly don't spend much time on the SW forums...
And yes, the Jedi WERE weaker in Vader's time, since most of the of knowledge and literature on teaching and mastering Force powers and lightsaber forms were lost between Kotor-Prequels. Plus most if not all of the Jedi in Vader's time practiced so much of Form l that mostly all of the Jedi Order never trained in Ligthsaber-to-Lightsaber forms because they felt no need to due to the Sith being 'extinct'. Add to that the fact that their ability to 'see' Force was diminishing rapidly due to Palpatine, and right there shows that they were weaker than the Jedi of Sion's time.
And yes, he did lead the old Sith to victory, since it was him and his Sith Assassins that took out most of the Jedi Order, was it not? Sure Nihilus took out Katarr, but he never did most of the dirty work like Sion and his men did.
Learn your facts, n00b.
Originally posted by Darth HordAnd there is nothing suggest that post-suit Vader did anything considerable besides killing an Old Man who let him and cutting the hand off a kid who barely learned on how to use a saber
Maybe I did underestimate his saber skill but there is nothing suggest he is as good as Vader. I would like for you to name some of the powerful jedi he killed. We know he was a great assassin. But assassin don't usallt attack their enimies head on.(this maybe different but it is not known how he acts) Also note that there were barely any jedi left at that time. I say about a hundred left after the jedi civil war. Many others joined Revan's sith empire. (I also believe Traya says that as well) Nihilus killed a few dozen or little more than that at Katarr. The most notable of the master that were left were in hiding at the time of KOTOR2. Sion killed the one at Korriban. As for the other 3(Kavar,Zez-Kai Ell and Vrook Lamar) were killed by Traya. I will say it again Sion is better than I originally stated in the thread but he is not on Vader's level.
You're right, they don't. That's why him and his assassins cloaked and stalked Jedi till it was the right time to strike and then used a technique that drained the soon-to-be-dead Jedi, of the Force(Kreia mentions this in the game). And yeah, because him and most of his men hunted them down, then when some went to discuss about it, Nihilus killed them, and Sion and his men hunted down the rest.
And I will say again; bullshit. In Purge, Vader was lured into a trap due to his emotions getting the better of him, only killed a few Jedi, and was about to be killed by the few remaining Jedi till his troops bailed him out. Where as Sion, wouldn't need anyone to bail him out, due to the fact that he can regenerate and knows a hell of a lot more than Vader does, due to the fact he probably had more knowledge available in his time than Vader did.
Originally posted by Spartan ll
Or you don't spend enough, n00b.And yes, the Jedi WERE weaker in Vader's time, since most of the of knowledge and literature on teaching and mastering Force powers and lightsaber forms were lost between Kotor-Prequels. Plus most if not all of the Jedi in Vader's time practiced so much of Form l that mostly all of the Jedi Order never trained in Ligthsaber-to-Lightsaber forms because they felt no need to due to the Sith being 'extinct'. Add to that the fact that their ability to 'see' Force was diminishing rapidly due to Palpatine, and right there shows that they were weaker than the Jedi of Sion's time.
Learn your facts, n00b.
Ok name THE most powerful jedi from Revan's/Sion's time who could match up against the best of Anakin's time-Mace Windu, Yoda and Obi-wan Kenobi.
What forms were lost? Notable lightsbaer master's and their forms- Form l had master Kit Fitso. Form ll-Makashi had Dooku even before he fell. Form lll-Soresu had Obi-Wan. Form IV had Yoda. Form V-Djem So had Anakin before he fell. FormVI-Niman had Cin Drallig who also mastered all the forms listed above. Mace Windu even created his own form Vapaad which was extremely affective against the dark side.Where was it stated that Jedi before the Clone Wars didn't practice other forms? The jedi in Vader's time>KOTOR jedi
Originally posted by Darth HordKavar, Vrook, Revan and the Exile.
Ok name most powerful jedi from Revan's/Sion's time who could match up against the best of Anakin's time-Mace Windu, Yoda and Obi-wan Kenobi.What forms were lost? Notable lightsbaer master's and their forms- Form l had master Kit Fitso. Form ll-Makashi had Dooku even before he fell. Form lll-Soresu had Obi-Wan. Form IV had Yoda. Form V-Djem So had Anakin before he fell. FormVI-Niman had Cin Drallig who also mastered all the forms listed above. Mace Windu even created his own form Vapaad which was extremely affective against the dark side.Where was it stated that Jedi before the Clone Wars didn't practice other forms? The jedi in Vader's time>KOTOR jedi
Form l was pretty much the pinacle of Vader's time Jedi Order. Form lll is probably the second, but Dooku, Mace(Which is pretty much redundant, since only Mace knew how to use Vaapad effectively) and Yoda's forms were saber to saber forms, which were pretty much not practiced at all, like I said above, due to the JO of that time not needing it since they thought the Sith were 'extinct'. The SW Chronology book confirms it. And Cin knew all those moves except Mace's form, yes, but he literally got killed in what? 30 seconds? Shows how powerful he is. If he was against any of the above, he'd be obliterated.
The old Jedi Order's Jedi were basically taught to know ALL forms, instead of specializing in just one(Which is what the Prequel Jedi did), which definately gives them an advantage. Plus take into the fact that they had a hell of a lot more knowledge to learn from than the Prequel jedi, and that they could see the Force clearly while the Prequel Jedi were blind to it.
Plus, as I said, there was a lot more knowledge available in Sion's time than there was in Vader's time.
And as I said before, take into the fact that Sion and his men knew an advanced form of Force Drain, which means all he'd have to do is drain Vader, and that's it.
Originally posted by Spartan ll
And there is nothing suggest that post-suit Vader did anything considerable besides killing an Old Man who let him and cutting the hand off a kid who barely learned on how to use a saberYou're right, they don't. That's why him and his assassins cloaked and stalked Jedi till it was the right time to strike and then used a technique that drained the soon-to-be-dead Jedi, of the Force(Kreia mentions this in the game). And yeah, because him and most of his men hunted them down, then when some went to discuss about it, Nihilus killed them, and Sion and his men hunted down the rest.
And I will say again; bullshit. In Purge, Vader was lured into a trap due to his emotions getting the better of him, only killed a few Jedi, and was about to be killed by the few remaining Jedi till his troops bailed him out. Where as Sion, wouldn't need anyone to bail him out, due to the fact that he can regenerate and knows a hell of a lot more than Vader does, due to the fact he probably had more knowledge available in his time than Vader did.
Of course Sion didn't need help because he could not die. We don't know the exact number of jedi left after the JCW yet it has been said to be under a hundred. You have no idea what percentage of those were killed by Sion's assassins or how many Nihilus killed or Sion himself. Or if any of the jedi who hid were in groups like (except on Katarr) there were when Vader went some as you mentioned. Nor do we know how powerful the remaining jedi were. I would also like to point how you said above how they would cloak and drained the jedi without them knowing until it is too late.Vader did killed the revived Maul for starters as well others during the purge. Also note if Sion would walk in there he could just let them stab him and continue to fight EVERYONE ELSE does not have that luxury. You might have a point in terms of knowledge. Vader might not have had any knowledge about Malachor V but he was trained by Sidious who arguably had more knowledge that any other Sith.(ex force storm)
Originally posted by Spartan ll
Kavar, Vrook, Revan and the Exile.
So you think they could match up agiant and defeat Yoda,Mace,Obi-wan and Anakin? That might be a good thread to start actually. But I have to go off right now and we can continue this debate later today . I'd also like to thank you for not calling me names and having a friendly debate.
Originally posted by Darth HordWe don't know the exact number of jedi left after the JCW yet it has been said to be under a hundred. You have no idea what percentage of those were killed by Sion's assassins or how many Nihilus killed or Sion himself.
Source please. Plus you basically just contradicted yourself right there. Basically the whole Jedi Order was devastated. Sion and his men started slaughtering them by the hundreds(Straight from the game) and when some of the remaining Jedi gathered at Katarr, Nihilus attacked, then the remaining Jedi fled, only to eventually slaughtered by Sion and his men.[QUOTE]Or if any of the jedi who hid were in groups like (except on Katarr) there were when Vader went some as you mentioned.
Nor do we know how powerful the remaining jedi were.
I would also like to point how you said above how they would cloak and drained the jedi without them knowing until it is too late.
Vader did killed the revived Maul for starters as well others during the purge. Also note if Sion would walk in there he could just let them stab him and continue to fight EVERYONE ELSE does not have that luxury.So? Maul was basically a pawn. He let his pride get the better of him not one, but TWO times, and look what happened. Maul himself wouldn't stand a chance against Sion. And Vader killed what? 3 Jedi who weren't prepared, two more who were just inexperienced padawans and one who gave up? That's nothing compared to what Sion and his assassins did.
You might have a point in terms of knowledge. Vader might not have had any knowledge about Malachor V but he was trained by Sidious who arguably had more knowledge that any other Sith.(ex force storm) [/B]True, but we know Sidious wouldn't teach Vader to the point where Sion was, lest Vader try and succeed in defeating Sidious, he actually mentions that in the ROTS Novel aswell.
Sion> OT Vader
Originally posted by Darth HordThey could definately defeat Obi-Wan and Anakin, though Yoda and Mace would put up a damn good fight. For a source on Revan's power, I suggest reading that Darth Bane book that came out last year. It's a good read, and gives you pretty good idea on how powerful Revan alone was. And you're welcome. 😉
So you think they could match up agiant and defeat Yoda,Mace,Obi-wan and Anakin? That might be a good thread to start actually. But I have to go off right now and we can continue this debate later today . I'd also like to thank you for not calling me names and having a friendly debate.
Though I'd have to say, Revan could beat both Mace and Yoda, not together, but he could kill Mace whille the others are holding Yoda off, and could gang up on Yoda and finish him. 😉
Originally posted by Spartan llYou clearly are anti vader
So I suppose killing most of the old Jedi Order, aswell as being the best Sith Assassin of his time and literally leading the Sith to victory against the Jedi Order proves he isn't good with a saber? Bullshit.Vader gets his ass handed to him. Vader may have helped hunt down what remained of the Jedi Order of his time(Who were clearly weaker than the ones in Sion's time), but there wasn't that much left TO hunt after O66 and his pre-suit purge of the Jedi Temple, Palpatine actually makes note of that in the ROTS novel.