Originally posted by Big Sexy
Are you kidding me. Please dude, putting thoughts into someones head and making it seem appealing in their brain is as manipulative as you can get.
I have to agree. That some pretty underhanded ish. But honestly if you had that power it would be very hard for you not to do it.
Originally posted by llagrok
Oh my god, you are so full of shit 🙂First of all, all children have a choice. If they want out of the school, they're out. He didn't know that X-men 1.5 were going to die did he? He's not clairvoyant. That's a mistake, not an act of evil.
Okay, so Xavier stopped Magneto from killing the rest of the x-men, after he had ripped out Wolverine's skeleton? Wow, talk about evil.
X-men deadly genesis was complete nonsense.
Danger room session? Where he took care of Danger? Was that truly so horrible?
I also mentioned that his recent behaviour had been very OUT OF CHARACTER and I agree with you there. I don't think they're doing a good job depicting him nowadays, something's changing in him. The recent UXM comics have been all about trying to make him come off as a bad guy.
After what you just stated you don't have the right to comment on what is and isn't a pile of shit.
For the following reasons:
Scared mutant children...the fact that you even say they have a choice is ridiculous. They were easily brainwashed into following is idealistic dream. A dream that is just not practical in the real world.
When he recruited the X-Men 1.5 he coerced them into joining his team, he abused the relationship between Vulcan and Scott. He even knew that the chances of him losing contact with the 1.5 team like he did with his initial team were very high. He basically sent a bunch of children blind into the depths of Krakoa. He should have just gone himself.
Afterwards he went and recruited the X-Men 2.0, again he used each ones inner desires and manipulated each one into joining his cause.
It was not a mistake it was desperation and he knew that the outcome of sending the X-Men 1.5 out there was suicide as so eloquently shown by Moira's disgust.
I never said Xavier was evil, I said he was a bastard...Emma Frost isn't evil but she's no altruist, neither is Xavier. They both have a warped code of ethics, Emma's is more open about who she is. Xavier operates under cover.
We have:
- Him forcing Kitty Pryde of the room via mind control.
- And him trying to mind control Emma into joining the X-Men 1.5
- Him abusing Rachel telepathy in the recent UXM arc
- Him delving into Ms Coopers head in new UXM arc
You're missing the point about Onslaught, I have no problem with Xavier mindwiping Magneto, heck I wasn't even referring to that incident. I was talking about the mentality behind Onslaughts train of thought, as we saw when Jean confronted him on the Astral Plane. Magneto wasn't the only one responsible for that, most of it was down to Xavier.
Yes the Danger Room where he trapped a childesque sentient being and brainwashed it to do one single thing...kill the X-Men. All it knows is violence. Why do you think everyone was so upset with him in AXM. Why do you think he was ashamed of himself in AXM.
Deadly Genesis isn't complete nonsense, you're not giving Xavier's characterisation enough credit. Xavier is one of the most intriguing characters in the X-Men. For the same reasons as Emma Frost. His morals are "warped", the difference between him and her is her ethos is more practical and she's more open about abusing her powers. Xavier is actually ashamed of the way he has acted in the past that's why he's formed this illusion and this idealistic dream where he portrays himself as some altruistic teacher type figure. The hypocrisy in it all is that he still did things that conflicted with the X-Mens code of ethics after establishing this mask. The fact that he still does it means that he's one of those "The ends justifies the means" kind of people. The recent characterisation of Xavier in UXM is the real Xavier, he's finally decided to stop hiding after all these years. Finally decided to stop being such a hypocrite.
This notion has been around for ages ever since the Claremont era. Xavier is no better then Magneto. Both of them aren't evil, but both are bastards.
Marvel is doing everything they can to build on this, Deadly and the Illuminati are just examples of this.
You're simplyfing everything by viewing Xavier the way you're doing now. A lot of things aren't just about black and white...good and evil...they're are a lot of grey areas as well.
I never once said Xavier was evil, but there's no denying that he's a bastard. Again that's just off the top of my head. I completely forgot about the Amelia Voght thing.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
After what you just stated you don't have the right to comment on what is and isn't a pile of shit.
For the following reasons:Scared mutant [b]children
...the fact that you even say they have a choice is ridiculous. They were easily brainwashed into following is idealistic dream. A dream that is just not practical in the real world.
When he recruited the X-Men 1.5 he coerced them into joining his team, he abused the relationship between Vulcan and Scott. He even knew that the chances of him losing contact with the 1.5 team like he did with his initial team were very high. He basically sent a bunch of children blind into the depths of Krakoa. He should have just gone himself.
Afterwards he went and recruited the X-Men 2.0, again he used each ones inner desires and manipulated each one into joining his cause.
It was not a mistake it was desperation and he knew that the outcome of sending the X-Men 1.5 out there was suicide as so eloquently shown by Moira's disgust.
I never said Xavier was evil, I said he was a bastard...Emma Frost isn't evil but she's no altruist, neither is Xavier. They both have a warped code of ethics, Emma's is more open about who she is. Xavier operates under cover.We have:
- Him forcing Kitty Pryde of the room via mind control.
- And him trying to mind control Emma into joining the X-Men 1.5
- Him abusing Rachel telepathy in the recent UXM arc
- Him delving into Ms Coopers head in new UXM arcYou're missing the point about Onslaught, I have no problem with Xavier mindwiping Magneto, heck I wasn't even referring to that incident. I was talking about the mentality behind Onslaughts train of thought, as we saw when Jean confronted him on the Astral Plane. Magneto wasn't the only one responsible for that, most of it was down to Xavier.
Yes the Danger Room where he trapped a childesque sentient being and brainwashed it to do one single thing...kill the X-Men. All it knows is violence. Why do you think everyone was so upset with him in AXM. Why do you think he was ashamed of himself in AXM.
Deadly Genesis isn't complete nonsense, you're not giving Xavier's characterisation enough credit. Xavier is one of the most intriguing characters in the X-Men. For the same reasons as Emma Frost. His morals are "warped", the difference between him and her is her ethos is more practical and she's more open about abusing her powers. Xavier is actually ashamed of the way he has acted in the past that's why he's formed this illusion and this idealistic dream where he portrays himself as some altruistic teacher type figure. The hypocrisy in it all is that he still did things that conflicted with the X-Mens code of ethics. The recent characterisation of Xavier in UXM is the real Xavier, he's finally decided to stop hiding after all these years. Finally decided to stop being such a hypocrite.
This notion has been around for ages ever since the Claremont era. Xavier is no better then Magneto. Both of them aren't evil, but both are bastards.Marvel is doing everything they can to build on this, Deadly and the Illuminati are just examples of this.
You're simplyfing everything by viewing Xavier the way you're doing now. A lot of things aren't just about black and white...good and evil...they're are a lot of grey areas as well.
I never once said Xavier was evil, but there's no denying that he's a bastard. Again that's just off the top of my head. I completely forgot about the Amelia Voght thing. [/B]
Xavier doesn't simply mind control people into doing what he wants, simple as that. It's all about point of view.
What the **** is your definition of free will then? If he supposedly "scares" the children to stay in his school? Because there's push and pull factors EVERYWHERE in society. INSPIRING people to believing in his dream is not the same as manipulating them. When they're out there fighting for world peace, you must be thinking "Oh shit man, xavier's one evil bastard. Trying to gain humanity's trust, what a scumbag"
Onslaught's train of thought when he confronted Jean? HA HA HA! If you think Xavier was consciously responsible for Onslaught's actions, then get real.
I don't give a flying **** what happens in uncanny retcon-men, because it's all nonsense. All of the sudden they decide to give Xavier some more depth, and turn him in to a monster.
The Illuminati is a necessity. I have no doubt that the world would be pretty f'ed if it hadn't been for them. Ironically, the world is f'ed due to them.
You can't blindly follow what happens in every comic. If so, do you believe that Black Panther's arm bar is realistic and makes perfect sense then?
Xavier trains people to try and improve the world. You're giving him crap because you think he should train them to survive in the world as it is today. If everyone was trained Stark school to be slick as hell, then the world would never improve. It would stay the way it is forever.
Have that many of Xavier's students failed in the real world though? I think they're doing a pretty good job actually. Most x-men who quit don't end up as bums, now do they?
You've got like 10 comics to back up all your statements. Ten INCREDIBLY suspicious comics. I've got 50 years of showings and feats.
For your record, love messes with everyone's mind. Everyone makes poor decisions when they're in love. Xavier is no exception.
Originally posted by grey foxNoone on that list is perfect, but the point is Peter always tries to make things right. About as realistically good as a person can get.
Yeah because getting pushed around by a guy you owe a favour and flip-floping between your friends ectPeters jsut popular, not a good role model.
Originally posted by llagrok
Xavier doesn't simply mind control people into doing what he wants, simple as that. It's all about point of view.What the **** is your definition of free will then? If he supposedly "scares" the children to stay in his school? Because there's push and pull factors EVERYWHERE in society. INSPIRING people to believing in his dream is not the same as manipulating them. When they're out there fighting for world peace, you must be thinking "Oh shit man, xavier's one evil bastard. Trying to gain humanity's trust, what a scumbag"
Onslaught's train of thought when he confronted Jean? HA HA HA! If you think Xavier was consciously responsible for Onslaught's actions, then get real.
I don't give a flying **** what happens in uncanny retcon-men, because it's all nonsense. All of the sudden they decide to give Xavier some more depth, and turn him in to a monster.
The Illuminati is a necessity. I have no doubt that the world would be pretty f'ed if it hadn't been for them. Ironically, the world is f'ed due to them.
You can't blindly follow what happens in every comic. If so, do you believe that Black Panther's arm bar is realistic and makes perfect sense then?
Xavier trains people to try and improve the world. You're giving him crap because you think he should train them to survive in the world as it is today. If everyone was trained Stark school to be slick as hell, then the world would never improve. It would stay the way it is forever.
You've got like 10 comics to back up all your statements. Ten INCREDIBLY suspicious comics. I've got 50 years of showings and feats.
For your record, love messes with everyone's mind. Everyone makes poor decisions when they're in love. Xavier is no exception.
He doesn't force people? He outright tried to force Emma into joining his X-Men 1.5. He mentally forced Kitty out of a room because he was frustrated with her.
Regarding the other X-Men. He used their own desires against them. That's manipulative there's no way round that.
Oh yeah he's sending a bunch of children into a warzone, Xavier's such a saint he has children do his dirty work. There is no difference between the methods used by a sane Magneto(One whose no being driven insane by his powers) and him.
Onslaught was acting upon Xaviers deeper/darker desires...the same Xavier who invented the Xavier Protocols and whose past time was coming up with ways to kill every single X-Man.
This retcon occured way back in the X-Men 100's where Claremont established this. The Mind Control/Kitty incident is here and I have an interview where he comments on the ethos of both Magneto and Xavier which I think I'll put up after lunch.
The Illuminati isn't a neccesity so far you have them meddling in issues that don't need meddling.(Skrulls, Infinity Gems, Beyonder) They're a group of men who like to play god. Blackbolt and Namor to a lesser extent.
I'm blindly following when this has been addressed by the writers and was established a very long time ago. Go figure.
Have that many of Xavier's students failed in the real world though? I think they're doing a pretty good job actually. Most x-men who quit don't end up as bums, now do they?
What the heck does this have to do with whether Xavier is a bastard or not? The fact that Marvel have portrayed him as one for the past 30 years shows.
You've got like 10 comics to back up all your statements. Ten INCREDIBLY suspicious comics. I've got 50 years of showings and feats.For your record, love messes with everyone's mind. Everyone makes poor decisions when they're in love. Xavier is no exception.
You haven't shown any proof that shows Xavier in any other light. You're just trying to make excuses for his actions when he himself knows his actions wrong. Again no one says he's evil, he's just a bastard and a hypocrite. And he'll do whatever it takes to get his way. I expect to see more of this in WWH: X-Men for becoming affiliated with the Illuminati.
Originally posted by CasanoVa
Xavier rules.He definetly [b]IS
a good role model for mutant children, sure.. because they don't know about all the sneaky, evil things that he does. [/B]
But of course, and to think that my description of Xavier is far more toned down then Claremonts. 😛 Claremont went as far to compare his thinking to that of a super-villian. And I take it back...Xavier was a bastard since issue #5 of the Uncanny X-Men.
Originally posted by llagrok
Chris Claremont is wrong 50% of the time.According to him, Xorn was Magneto 🙂
Claremont gave examples and issue numbers. As did I and everyone else who posted in this thread, Ed Brubaker acknowledges this and so does Joss Whedon (1. Danger incident. 2. Emma Frost in AXM when she said that Xavier believes that Telepaths are above everyone etc)
Eh...how is that possible? Claremont was the one who wrote the Excalibur run that showed that Xorn was not Magneto.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
But of course, and to think that my description of Xavier is far more toned down then Claremonts. 😛 Claremont went as far to compare his thinking to that of a super-villian. And I take it back...Xavier was a bastard since issue #5 of the Uncanny X-Men.
He's bald & disabled!
And he's played by Patrick Stewart in the movies!
How can you not love him? 😍
Originally posted by CasanoVa
Yeah..Paedophiles don't make good role models for children 😬.
Easily Captain America, especially now that he's a martyr, I don't know about you lot.. when I was a child if he was anti-reg I'd of thought he fawkin' rocked.
I'd love to see a 'Church of Cap' dedicated to Steve for being the physical representation of the epitome of mankind. Sharon Carter , Bucky and Falncon could be his disciples. Iron-Man judas and Spidey John the Baptist.
You think he's a bad role model simply because uncanny retcon has decided to turn him into an butt. Making it look like he willingly sacrificed all those kids to Krakoa. He telepathically made Kitty leave the room? That's horrible now? If you think that makes him a butt, wow.
He's not a butt for having desires, because everyone has that. The fact that he has gone through so much trouble holding these back, and controlling himself is a proof of just how good he is. If he really did abuse his powers so much, he'd do Jean every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Just because Emma says it's so, doesn't mean it is. She also claimed that he had erotic mental sessions with Jean on long plane trips.
What warzones did he send the kids into? His number one concern has always been to PROTECT these children. That's why they have all the martial arts and self defense training.
I'm not saying that he's right all the time, I'm saying that he's a good person and a role model.
If you think the fact that he protects children from a world that hates and wants to kill them, tried to persuade a woman he loved into joining him and the fact that he has desires makes him a bad person? Wow, how many good people are there in the world?
What good role models are there then? Didn't Bats get Robin killed? Has he never made bad decisions?
Has Xavier ever been responsible for Genocide, like Magneto has? Did he ever try to kill the entire human population, simply because they don't like him and his kind? No, he tries to gain their trust.
If he has to mind control a rowdy kid out of the room to do so? Then go ahead.
Originally posted by llagrok
You think he's a bad role model simply because uncanny retcon has decided to turn him into an butt. Making it look like he willingly sacrificed all those kids to Krakoa. He telepathically made Kitty leave the room? That's horrible now? If you think that makes him a butt, wow.He's not a butt for having desires, because everyone has that. The fact that he has gone through so much trouble holding these back, and controlling himself is a proof of just how good he is. If he really did abuse his powers so much, he'd do Jean every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Not so much a retcon when it all began in UXM #5 now is it? Again he did it out of desperation.
As Claremont said he was growing out of it. Then it's revealed that Xavier didn't actually grow out of it, Onslaught Saga, NXM, AXM, In HoM Wanda teaches him a lesson and he learns from it. He's blatant about abusing his powers now not the hypocrite he once was.
Was there a need to do what he did to Danger? Was there a need to join the Illuminati and play god. Was there a need to try and Force Emma into joining the X-Men 1.5. Was there a need to lie to the X-Men time and time again.(UXM #5 like Claremont said)
The fact that he didn't have his way with Jean doesn't mean he's a good person. Even certain super villians frown upon rape. It means he doesn't rape children. He has abuses their trust in other ways.
Just because Emma says it's so, doesn't mean it is. She also claimed that he had erotic mental sessions with Jean on long plane trips.
IRRC Emma said Jean and Xavier swapped thoughts. Nothing more. She reiterated by sayings all telepaths do this.
Everything Emma said in that session with Scott was true. That's how she broke each one of the AXM members down. She knew them. Again you're making excuses when the writers even agree with me.
What warzones did he send the kids into? His number one concern has always been to PROTECT these children. That's why they have all the martial arts and self defense training.
Every single time he sent the X-Children after a bad guy. Martial Arts, self defense training...tools that they needed to carry out his dirty work. You wouldn't say the same to a person who uses child soldiers now would you?
Heck their parents didn't even know what Xavier was doing to their children. What gives him that right. You keep saying he was protecting them. But how many of them ended up dying on more then one occasion? This is war...and Xaviers army consists of mutant children.
I'm not saying that he's right all the time, I'm saying that he's a good person and a role model.
If you think the fact that he protects children from a world that hates and wants to kill them, tried to persuade a woman he loved into joining him and the fact that he has desires makes him a bad person? Wow, how many good people are there in the world?
What makes Xavier a bad role model is that he's a hypocrite he violates his very own code of ethics when it suits him...the fact that his primary goal is world peace...shows that he's not evil. But at the same time he's not a good role model and he's not the saint you make him out to be. Because he'll do whatever it takes to get to reach that dream, much like Magneto.
What good role models are there then? Didn't Bats get Robin killed? Has he never made bad decisions?
Has anyone said that Batmans a good role model? I think that answer s your question.
Has Xavier ever been responsible for Genocide, like Magneto has? Did he ever try to kill the entire human population, simply because they don't like him and his kind? No, he tries to gain their trust.
Magnetos powers cause an imbalance in the brain which causes insanity as explained by Moira.
BTW Which Genocide incident are you talking about with Magneto? Magneto kills humans...but then the humans he kills are humans that participate in this Mutant/Human war. It's war...it's wrong but it's war. What can you say. Non-X-Men affiliated Magneto has saved humans as well.
If he has to mind control a rowdy kid out of the room to do so? Then go ahead.
No he actually mind controlled her out of anger. She didn't realize that phasing through computers would cause the data to get erased so he forced her out the room telepathically and it according to Kitty it hurt.
According to the angry little pup who wanted to make it look like he was a bad guy?
Scott already knew that telepaths speak to each other, that was NOT the type of communication that Emma was referring to.
Did Xavier ever FORCE anyone to participate in missions? No, he held them back to make sure they were ready. Are you familiar with Jubilee? Those so called children, are people whose life he rescued and provided a better alternative for. Did you ever hear "No Professor, please don't make us go outside and fight the bad guys."
After the 1980s most X-men have been fully grown anyways and completely responsible for their own actions.
He plays god in Illuminati, oh really now? They're a council of the strongest and the brightest. It's obvious that they had no bad intentions when it came to the IG.
Also, try and force Emma? If he wanted to, he could've forced her. You keep on saying "tried to control with his telepathy" and such, but the truth is that if Xavier wanted to, he could make all the people in the world accept mutants.
If he really wanted to he could remove all the mutant hatred in the world, but he hasn't.
You're almost like a broken record now. Keep on pointing to the same issues and interviews. Claiming that he violated their free will. Has he ever telepathically forced anyone to stay at the mansion? Has he ever telepathically forced anyone to carry out missions? NO AND NO
Does he make bad decisions sometimes? Yes.
Does that necessarily make him a bad person? No.
Xavier's not a hypocrite, if he was then there wouldn't be any mutant hatred in the world, no would there?
Originally posted by llagrokCyclops even told Xavier during the danger incident , "Wheres your resolve for the sanctity of life. I guess since he isn't like us he doesn't matter". If that doesn't spell hypocrite I don't know what does.
According to the angry little pup who wanted to make it look like he was a bad guy?Scott already knew that telepaths speak to each other, that was NOT the type of communication that Emma was referring to.
Did Xavier ever FORCE anyone to participate in missions? No, he held them back to make sure they were ready. Are you familiar with Jubilee? Those so called children, are people whose life he rescued and provided a better alternative for. Did you ever hear "No Professor, please don't make us go outside and fight the bad guys."
After the 1980s most X-men have been fully grown anyways and completely responsible for their own actions.
He plays god in Illuminati, oh really now? They're a council of the strongest and the brightest. It's obvious that they had no bad intentions when it came to the IG.
Also, try and force Emma? If he wanted to, he could've forced her. You keep on saying "tried to control with his telepathy" and such, but the truth is that if Xavier wanted to, he could make all the people in the world accept mutants.
If he really wanted to he could remove all the mutant hatred in the world, but he hasn't.
You're almost like a broken record now. Keep on pointing to the same issues and interviews. Claiming that he violated their free will. Has he ever telepathically forced anyone to stay at the mansion? Has he ever telepathically forced anyone to carry out missions? NO AND NO
Does he make bad decisions sometimes? Yes.
Does that necessarily make him a bad person? No.Xavier's not a hypocrite, if he was then there wouldn't be any mutant hatred in the world, no would there?
Originally posted by Big Sexy
Cyclops even told Xavier during the danger incident , "Wheres your resolve for the sanctity of life. I guess since he isn't like us he doesn't matter". If that doesn't spell hypocrite I don't know what does.
Wasn't it bent on destruction before it acquired sentience? I think it wanted to kill them when Xavier found out that it was a sentient being.
Also, let's hear your suggestion for a good role model.
Originally posted by llagrok
According to the angry little pup who wanted to make it look like he was a bad guy?
According to Marvel...you don't like it tough...because it was established when UXM began, it was addressed throughout the series and it's been established in the latest UXM issue.
BTW Why is everything about good and bad? Why can't you see that things don't have to be good or bad?
Scott already knew that telepaths speak to each other, that was NOT the type of communication that Emma was referring to.
Oh really? The type of communication where telepaths converse in each others minds. It's more comfortable there anyway. Did you read AXM #21 where the AXM are spinning towards breakerworld? Emma takes everyone into her mind for a tea party.
Did Xavier ever FORCE anyone to participate in missions? No, he held them back to make sure they were ready. Are you familiar with Jubilee? Those so called children, are people whose life he rescued and provided a better alternative for. Did you ever hear "No Professor, please don't make us go outside and fight the bad guys."After the 1980s most X-men have been fully grown anyways and completely responsible for their own actions.
If he really wanted to he could remove all the mutant hatred in the world, but he hasn't.
You're almost like a broken record now. Keep on pointing to the same issues and interviews. Claiming that he violated their free will. Has he ever telepathically forced anyone to stay at the mansion? Has he ever telepathically forced anyone to carry out missions? NO AND NO
You don't understand, he placed them in situations where they don't have a choice. Claremont answered this question read the interview. His missions were do or die missions.
- He has an did violate their free will
He's not good or evil....that's what you don't understand.
You haven't pointed out anything to prove otherwise. Fact Xaviers methods do not differ from Magneto and they share a lot of traits.
He plays god in Illuminati, oh really now? They're a council of the strongest and the brightest. It's obvious that they had no bad intentions when it came to the IG.
An unofficial council of the best and brightest who decides the fate of the whole of Mankind. Sending the Hulk into space without a chance to officially defend his case. Gate crashing the Skrull planet only to make a bigger mess for Eaths inhabitants...interfering with the Beyonder when he possed no threat to Earth, gathering the Infinity Gems.
Also, try and force Emma? If he wanted to, he could've forced her. You keep on saying "tried to control with his telepathy" and such, but the truth is that if Xavier wanted to, he could make all the people in the world accept mutants.
I say tried because he never succeeded. Emma told Moira and him to get the hell out.
Does he make bad decisions sometimes? Yes.
Does that necessarily make him a bad person? No.
His actions don't make him a good person either...it doesn't make him a good role model.
It's not about good or evil, bad or good. There's such a thing as grey areas.
Xavier's not a hypocrite, if he was then there wouldn't be any mutant hatred in the world, no would there?
Of course he's a hypocrite he abused his own code of ethics...
I mean there's not much more to say, you may not like but it's the way Xavier has always been.
My case is made, you're arguing for the sake of arguing...Marvel established it. If you don't like it take it up with them.
Originally posted by Big Sexy
Cyclops even told Xavier during the danger incident , "Wheres your resolve for the sanctity of life. I guess since he isn't like us he doesn't matter". If that doesn't spell hypocrite I don't know what does.
I wouldn't bother if I were you he seems fixed on his views. But a well presented case nonetheless.
