Revan vs. Maul

Started by Advent9 pages
Originally posted by Utrigita
What is you reasons for saying Maul would win Advent?

I have none, considering I never said he would win. Quote me for truth if you believe otherwise.

Nevermind that Anoon Bondara's prowess with a blade was described as "second to none" by the omniscient narrator, and that Maul made short work of him.

Which was a statement designed to counter an attempted point made by a Revan supporter. It's not to suggest that Maul wins, merely like I said to Sexy, to show that he'll "need more proof than that" to make a viable case.

Anyways, are you done making incorrect inferences yet? Or do you still have more up that big ass of yours?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
From your point of view, can you tell me that how Revan killed those monsters?

No, because if it wasn't clear enough before, the circumstances are unknown. Ergo, it's speculation to say that he killed them via lightsaber or similar weapon. One could've used a grenade (you find two different types of grenades in the area, to my (perfect) recollection), or made indirect use of the Force.

Nothing is absolute, so don't try to act like it is.

Several sources have indicated that Terentatek beasts are immune to Force attacks.

Appeal to authority, logical fallacy.

I asked you to prove up citing canon sources, not third party websites. A pornographic website says that if I get my boyfriend pill X his dong will grow to massive sizes for life, is it true because the advertisement said it? No.

Though, I will say it's comedy at its finest when one of your own sources suggests they are not completely immune:

"Regardless, terentatek were virtually immune to effects of the Force."

QED.

Even in the KOTOR game, most of the Force attacks do not work on Terentateks.

But some do, so it's a logical fallacy to assume that they are entirely resistant to the Force.

However the game developers still allowed one kind of Force Power to work on the Terentateks and this power is Force Stun. But this is just a work of Game Mechanics to make it easy for the gamers to defeat those monsters

Do you work for Bioware? No. Did you develop KotOR? No. Are you a complete and utter buffoon? Yes.

You don't dictate for what purpose they allowed such a power to be used, because you don't work for them! The fact of the matter is, that it was not a variable.

Which means that it isn't dependent upon the situation, as it can always be used no matter what. Akin to that of Bastila knowing Force lightning after her fall to the Dark side. It's never canonically stated, but it's not an alterable element.

and is not a canonical fact, unless proven by an another source.

Arguing from ignorance is never smart. See above, it doesn't need to.

And may I ask, where in the blue hell any of your sources are, huh? You're arguments are completely unsupported.

So we have one more viable option left and that is the use of Light Saber or a Sith Sword.

Except not because you're operating under a false premise. Even assuming arguendo that the direct Force attacks would be useless, indirect usage of the Force is certainly a viable option. Grenades, mines, etc. would also be possible.

Believing what you want to believe again?

There is no concrete evidence but we can logically deduce that Revan had to kill those monsters using a melee weapon because there were no other viable options left

Already addressed, see above.

since the monsters were immune to Force attacks.

Already addressed, see above.

Here is a description about Yusanis from the KOTOR Journal

Which is also largely irrelevant.

I didn't ask anything about Yusanis' skills, I asked you to prove that Revan "destroyed" him, as you so eloquently put it...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He destroyed Yusanis

...which you've yet to do.

I was obviously talking about a saber clash between Revan and Malak, in which Revan struck him down.

Unsupported assumption. How many times do I have to state this?

The circumstances of the duel are unknown.

Ergo, it's a huge fallacy to assert that he defeated him in a saber battle. You spewing out scenarios doesn't change that fact.

Now before you come and say that Malak sucked in Light Saber Combat or something like that, I must tell you that Drew intended Malak to a be skilled swordsman. And ask Drew, if you doubt me!

Jumping the gun, much?

Anyways, it's entirely irrelevant if he's a "skilled swordsman", because there's no definitive proof that Revan used his lightsaber for more than two seconds (or at all, for that matter).

How about sticking to the point, and proving up on what I asked you to prove up on:

Originally posted by Advent
Uh. Who said it was a saber duel? Once again, your stating conclusions without any viable proof. What source supports that the duel between Malak and Revan was a lightsaber battle for longer than say, two seconds (or even if you're referring to Bandon, the same applies)?
It does matters when dealing against another prodigious being because it makes it clear for us that both of these men were skilled warriors.

No, you clearly intended for calling Revan a "prodigy" to be some sort of valid point. It's only relevant insomuch as it tells us he's good (known information), it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things because Maul can be considered a prodigy as well.

I know that Revan's precognitive abilities are not infallible but this does not means that his precognitive abilities were not exceptional.

Any Jedi who's worth a damn has the ability to see the near future. Untrained Force sensitive too (Anakin). It's hardly the end-all be-all.

When he faced Yusanis, his precognitive abilities were put to an ultimate test in which Revan prevailed.

You mean when he faced Yusanis and prevailed by unknown means, right?

Case 1: Jedi Strike Team vs Revan

I wasn't even referring to this, I was saying it in regards to their encounter on the Leviathan (whirlwind and stun). Nice job jumping the gun, Quickdraw.

Revan became emotionally disturbed by the revelation and it limited his focus, so he could not properly concentrate on Malak's moves and lost.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Though Revan was also a bit emotionally disturbed after the revelation, so that might have limited his focus and Malak took advantage.

Inconsistency anyone? When it's in favor of your argument, you'll state it as fact, but when it's not, you'll give it a mere acknowledgment of being possible.

Anyways, jack shit suggests that it was due to the "revelation" he got caught in those two attacks. Prove up, all you have to go on is speculation without a strong leg to even hold it up. It's not definitive.

However in the later duel, Revan was fully familiar with all the realities and accepted them and fought with clear mind and defeated the Dark Lord.

...By means unknown.

Thus in both these cases, there was a specific reason that led Revan to fail.

According to your unproven assumptions, and speculation.

And if Anoon Bondara failed to perform well against Maul, does this logic applies to Revan too, who has proved on more then several occasions that he can deal with any kind of threat?

I didn't suggest it did. Quote me for truth. The situation with me referencing Maul's battle with Anoon was to counter ridiculous assertions, such as "ZOMG, REVAN WAS THE BEST IN AN ORDER OF THOUSANDS!".

Actually, on second glance, your sentence doesn't even appear to be formulated in a way that can be properly read. Wanna' try that again?

Remember that I used word "believed" and some sources do indicate that Revan used Jar Kai.

Again, I ask: "is believed"? By who? A crack whore with a bum leg? Not that it matters, as just because one is believed doesn't mean one actually is.

You've failed to prove that he is "among the greatest practitioners of Jar'Kai", which was your assertion. So, I'll assume that it was nothing more than bullshit from a lying fanboy.

And again, your precious Wookiepedia fails you:

"With Revan [...] as [a] possible practitioner".

QED.

However if you want to see such sources then here are some

Appeal to authority, logical fallacy (so because Wookiepedia said it, it must be true?).

And also in the KOTOR II game, the vision of Revan was shown using Jar Kai combat style.

A vision similar to that like the one Luke has on Dagobah. Is Darth Vader now Luke Skywalker in disguise? Your points holds no water.

A concept art of Revan is also shown using Jar Kai style.

O RLY? I suppose then, Chewbacca must've looked like a Big Foot meets Santa Claus meets the Seven Dwarfs at one point or another.

Yeah. Concept art is only a rough idea, and it doesn't indicate what you need to prove up on anyways. You're suppose to showing me some concrete evidence that Revan is "among the greatest practitioners of Jar'Kai", not some children's crappy art work.

Originally posted by Advent
You're arguments are completely unsupported.

****ing small grammar error and 15 minute edit limit. I meant "Your" (well, I actually forgot to add the rest of that sentence to the beginning, but we'll deal with it how it is).

Oh, but it doesn't change the fact your arguments are completely unsupported.

To be fair Advent, didn't one of the Qel Dromas have a vision of Revan standing over Malak, with his lightsaber lit? What do you think that means?

he defeated malak with mines and then pulled out his saber for no apparent reason

Edited, by the way.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What do you think that means?

I already suggested that it makes it likely a lightsaber duel took place, but who said Malak was killed via a blade? And who says they fought with such a weapon for more than one pass?

No one. Which was my entire point.

Originally posted by Advent
I have none, considering I never said he would win. Quote me for truth if you believe otherwise.

Which was a statement designed to counter an attempted point made by a Revan supporter. It's not to suggest that Maul wins, merely like I said to Sexy, to show that he'll "need more proof than that" to make a viable case.

Anyways, are you done making incorrect inferences yet? Or do you still have more up that big ass of yours?

Sorry my badge just assumed that when you where speaking so much again Revan winning and grinding every argument moving openion that way, I assumed that you believed Maul would emerge victorious but obviously that isn't the case.

Oh and it was only a question not a argument ore anything so cool down...

Does anyone know. if you can read novels on SW.timeline.ru, because you can watch comics, but i cant figure out the novels, the reason i am asking, because i found another site(its a Russian site to), where you can read novels, altough it isn't as good as sw.timeline.ru.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Does anyone know. if you can read novels on SW.timeline.ru, because you can watch comics, but i cant figure out the novels, the reason i am asking, because i found another site(its a Russian site to), where you can read novels, altough it isn't as good as sw.timeline.ru.

Don't waste your time and read something decent. Surely wikipedia can satisfy your thirst for Eu lore?

I meant, if anyone else wants it to, to read some novels, if they are interested, because i will(i read most of them, already, but i want to repeat it, to freshen my memory). I just said if someone knows how to fix the problem on sw.timeline.ru, i would rather read it there.

I don't actually care, not in an unfriendly way, I just used your comment to insult some poorly written EU material 😛

Here is the link, to the site i found, where you can read novels.

http://sweu.ru/novels.htm

http://sweu.ru/children.htm

Funny how to make the distinction between children's and adult novels! To be quite honest with you, I wouldn't have noticed the difference between them!

Good find.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Funny how to make the distinction between children's and adult novels! To be quite honest with you, I wouldn't have noticed the difference between them!

I can read a little what it says, thats how i was able to find it.

I just want to say 2 think this this personage:

Anyways, jack shit suggests that it was due to the "revelation" he got caught in those two attacks. Prove up, all you have to go on is speculation without a strong leg to even hold it up. It's not definitive.

When Revan met Malak for the first time his training was not even complete and didn't even suspect who he was. Bastilla pretty much states this, she says that the 3 of them can beat Malak. Now, in case you failed to notice, months ago Revan was not even a jedi anymore, he was simply a soldier in the Republic Fleet. Yet, when he fought Malak in the Star Forge, for their second time, his memories and powers were back, and so obviously, he was much stronger then before.

I already suggested that it makes it likely a lightsaber duel took place, but who said Malak was killed via a blade? And who says they fought with such a weapon for more than one pass?

No one. Which was my entire point.

Really, how do you expect for 2 sith lords to fight each other? Obviously Revan and Malak fought a lightsaber duel, which is supported by Quel Droma's vision... By the way, Revan fought has a lightsider against Malak, so obviously he would not use powers like force storm to beat him. Was aservant of the light, he would just use the force for defensive uses or to boost the power and speed of his lightsaber... Also, if Malak's powers were empored by the Star Forge, he would probably be very dificult to beat using only the force.

I also want to notice that, besides the fact his force powers were quite impressive, when Bastilla confronted him with the jedi strike team, he actually prepared himself to fight them all with his LIGHTSABER...

Originally posted by kamhal
When Revan met Malak for the first time his training was not even complete and didn't even suspect who he was.

Prove his precognitive abilities were still hidden to him at that point.

Bastilla pretty much states this, she says that the 3 of them can beat Malak. Now, in case you failed to notice, months ago Revan was not even a jedi anymore, he was simply a soldier in the Republic Fleet. Yet, when he fought Malak in the Star Forge, for their second time, his memories and powers were back, and so obviously, he was much stronger then before.

"Months ago"? By the time of the confrontation on the Leviathan, there's all of two places to go. He's hardly a mere "soldier" at that point, as he's already visited Dantooine.

As well, this proves that his ability to sense the near future improved how?

Really, how do you expect for 2 sith lords to fight each other?

There's an inaccuracy, only Malak was a Sith Lord. Revan was a Jedi by that point.

And it's fallacious reasoning to assume that because they're "Sith Lords" (when, in fact, "they're" not, Malak is) they must've fought with lightsabers, anyways.

Obviously Revan and Malak fought a lightsaber duel, which is supported by Quel Droma's vision.

Right, but for how long and what happened is unknown.

By the way, Revan fought has a lightsider against Malak, so obviously he would not use powers like force storm to beat him.

That sentence cannot even be comprehended. Would you care to go back to the drawing boards? I sense it'll still be just as idiotic, though.

Was aservant of the light, he would just use the force for defensive uses or to boost the power and speed of his lightsaber.

I suppose that's why Yoda was "a servant of the light", yet still used an offensive ability on Darth Sidious. The point is moot when I tell you that there's numerous occasions where Jedi resort to using the Force in an aggressive manner.

Also, if Malak's powers were empored by the Star Forge, he would probably be very dificult to beat using only the force.

I didn't say he only used the Force, for all we know, they dueled for x amount of time before having one pass of blades. Like I said: it's unknown.

Simply because you and the rest of the NRFA (National Revan Fanboy Association) like to argue from your personal beliefs (logical fallacy, mind you) doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I also want to notice that, besides the fact his force powers were quite impressive, when Bastilla confronted him with the jedi strike team, he actually prepared himself to fight them all with his LIGHTSABER...

To say that "ZOMG, BECAUSE HE USED A LIGHTSABER IN SCENARIO X, HE USED IT IN SCENARIO Y" is an unsound assumption, not to mention ridiculous.

One accounts for the rest? Uh. In what realm does this logic pass for acceptable?

Originally posted by Advent
Prove his precognitive abilities were still hidden to him at that point.

"Months ago"? By the time of the confrontation on the Leviathan, there's all of two places to go. He's hardly a mere "soldier" at that point, as he's already visited Dantooine.

As well, this proves that his ability to sense the near future improved how?

There's an inaccuracy, only Malak was a Sith Lord. Revan was a Jedi by that point.

And it's fallacious reasoning to assume that because they're "Sith Lords" (when, in fact, "they're" not, Malak is) they must've fought with lightsabers, anyways.

Right, but for how long and what happened is unknown.

That sentence cannot even be comprehended. Would you care to go back to the drawing boards? I sense it'll still be just as idiotic, though.

I suppose that's why Yoda was "a servant of the light", yet still used an offensive ability on Darth Sidious. The point is moot when I tell you that there's numerous occasions where Jedi resort to using the Force in an aggressive manner.

I didn't say he only used the Force, for all we know, they dueled for x amount of time before having one pass of blades. Like I said: [b]it's unknown.

Simply because you and the rest of the NRFA (National Revan Fanboy Association) like to argue from your personal beliefs (logical fallacy, mind you) doesn't mean I'm wrong.

To say that "ZOMG, BECAUSE HE USED A LIGHTSABER IN SCENARIO X, HE USED IT IN SCENARIO Y" is an unsound assumption, not to mention ridiculous.

One accounts for the rest? Uh. In what realm does this logic pass for acceptable? [/B]

PWNED

A vision similar to that like the one Luke has on Dagobah. Is Darth Vader now Luke Skywalker in disguise? Your points holds no water.

Except The Exiles battles in Ludo Kressh's tomb were based on her direct memories of the situation/combatant, meaning that the Revan you face in the game who displays (on an in-game level) mastery of Jar Kai, is given such a skill with the style because thats what the Exile witnessed of Revan during the Mando Wars.

Originally posted by Advent
No, because if it wasn't clear enough before, the circumstances are unknown. Ergo, it's speculation to say that he killed them via lightsaber or similar weapon. One could've used a grenade (you find two different types of grenades in the area, to my (perfect) recollection), or made indirect use of the Force.

Those two grenades were mean't to be used on that Acid Pool. And none of those grenades were powerful enough to kill or even seriously injure those two monsters. So once again, Revan had to resort to the use of Melee weapons against them.

However Revan could use the Force to augment his strength or stamina but he was also a skilled swordsman. And Revan himself said that he killed those monsters easily, which is a feat to be acknowledged. Many people failed to kill those monsters in past several decades and and it shows that how skilled Revan was.

Originally posted by Advent
Nothing is absolute, so don't try to act like it is.

We still can make a logical deduction based on the analysis of the situation in the Tomb of Naga Sadow.

Originally posted by Advent
Appeal to authority, logical fallacy.

I asked you to prove up citing canon sources, not third party websites.

Though, I will say it's comedy at its finest when one of your own sources suggests they are not completely immune:

"Regardless, terentatek were virtually immune to effects of the Force."

QED.


In the comic: "Shadows and Light", the Jedi always use melee weapons against the Terentatek beasts. Why don't they use Force on these monsters, if these monsters are not fully immune to Force attacks?

Originally posted by Advent
A pornographic website says that if I get my boyfriend pill X his dong will grow to massive sizes for life, is it true because the advertisement said it? No.

Now this is some naughty and lovely explanation from a girl! hehehe! 😱 Thanks for the insight!

Originally posted by Advent
But some do, so it's a logical fallacy to assume that they are entirely resistant to the Force.

Answer the above question!

Originally posted by Advent
Do you work for Bioware? No. Did you develop KotOR? No. Are you a complete and utter buffoon? Yes.

You don't dictate for what purpose they allowed such a power to be used, because you don't work for them! The fact of the matter is, that it was not a variable.


You Force Stun them during the gameplay, right? Now our actions in the gameplay are not canon.

Originally posted by Advent
Which means that it isn't dependent upon the situation, as it can always be used no matter what. Akin to that of Bastila knowing Force lightning after her fall to the Dark side. It's never canonically stated, but it's not an alterable element.

Do you see a Jedi Force Stunning those monsters in a cutscene? No!

Now how can you say for sure that Revan Force Stunned them first and then destroyed them? No you can't!

And if Bioware allowed one Force Power to work on those monsters during gameplay, it does not makes it a canon thing unless they show you a Jedi Force Stunning[/b] those monsters in a cutscene.

[i]Originally posted by Advent
Arguing from ignorance is never smart. See above, it doesn't need to.

And may I ask, where in the blue hell any of your sources are, huh? You're arguments are completely unsupported.


If all of the sources that I have mentioned are lying then can you show me a reliable source that proves your argument that some Force attacks can work on Terentatek beasts, apart from that gameplay bullshit?

Originally posted by Advent
Except not because you're operating under a false premise. Even assuming arguendo that the direct Force attacks would be useless, indirect usage of the Force is certainly a viable option. Grenades, mines, etc. would also be possible.

Indirect use of Force in terms of augmenting the strength or stamina is a possibility that I will never deny.

But use of Grenades and Mines is an absurd thing. Those Sith Masters do not allow people to carry powerful explosives and mines in to that Tomb of Naga Sadow to easily accomplish the Sith Trials.

Originally posted by Advent
Believing what you want to believe again?

See the above explanation!

Originally posted by Advent
Already addressed, see above.

Not yet!

Originally posted by Advent
Already addressed, see above.

Not yet!

Originally posted by Advent
Which is also largely irrelevant.

I didn't ask anything about Yusanis' skills, I asked you to prove that Revan "destroyed" him, as you so eloquently put it...


What else Revan did to Yusanis? Let him go?

Originally posted by Advent
...which you've yet to do.

Check the second source for explanation.

Originally posted by Advent
Unsupported assumption. How many times do I have to state this?

The circumstances of the duel are unknown.

Ergo, it's a huge fallacy to assert that he defeated him in a saber battle. You spewing out scenarios doesn't change that fact.


What does the vision of Duron Qel Droma shows you? Was Revan posing with that Light Saber?

Originally posted by Advent
Jumping the gun, much?

Anyways, it's entirely irrelevant if he's a "skilled swordsman", because there's no definitive proof that Revan used his lightsaber for more than two seconds (or at all, for that matter).

How about sticking to the point, and proving up on what I asked you to prove up on:


How can you say for sure that the Light Saber battle between Revan and Malak lasted only for two seconds?

Originally posted by Advent
No, you clearly intended for calling Revan a "prodigy" to be some sort of valid point. It's only relevant insomuch as it tells us he's good (known information), it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things because Maul can be considered a prodigy as well.

Revan was at-least declared to be a Prodigy by a Jedi Master. When was Maul declared to be a prodigy in a similar manner and by whom?

Originally posted by Advent
Any Jedi who's worth a damn has the ability to see the near future. Untrained Force sensitive too (Anakin). It's hardly the end-all be-all.

OK! Lets drop this issue.

Originally posted by Advent
You mean when he faced Yusanis and prevailed by unknown means, right?

I made a logical deduction based on the fact that Yusanis had exceptional precognitive skills. Now to beat a person like that, a Jedi will had to anticipate his every move and then counter them effectively. And to achieve this, that Jedi must possess exceptional precognitive abilities.

Originally posted by Advent
I wasn't even referring to this, I was saying it in regards to their encounter on the Leviathan (whirlwind and stun). Nice job jumping the gun, Quickdraw.

Alright!

But there are two reasons for that defeat:

A) Being emotionally disturbed that limited his focus.

B) Limited training and knowledge. Although Revan was very strong and experienced, he did not remembered all the knowledge that he learned before the betrayal. Malak however knew a lot about the Sith/Jedi techniques and also had vast experience at his disposal because he never forgot anything. And the training from the Jedi Council in Dantooine proved not to be enough to stop him.

Originally posted by Advent
Inconsistency anyone? When it's in favor of your argument, you'll state it as fact, but when it's not, you'll give it a mere acknowledgment of being possible.

I mentioned that thought for the first time in any debate, so initially I stated it as a possibility. And since some others seem to acknowledge it, so I can mention it with more confidence now.

Originally posted by Advent
Anyways, jack shit suggests that it was due to the "revelation" he got caught in those two attacks. Prove up, all you have to go on is speculation without a strong leg to even hold it up. It's not definitive.

What would you expect from a person who thinks that he is all good and then suddenly he is exposed to a terrible truth that he was actually a villian who is responsible for murder of millions? Will he not get emotionally disturbed?

And stop asking for definite proof in all the cases on the subject of Revan. There is a thing known as "logical deduction" and we can make them through observations and analysis.

Originally posted by Advent
...By means unknown.

He did not used Thermal Detonators, Grenades and Mines to defeat him however! 🙄

Originally posted by Advent
According to your unproven assumptions, and speculation.

According to the logical deductions that seem to be true. As I have explained above.

Originally posted by Advent
I didn't suggest it did. Quote me for truth. The situation with me referencing Maul's battle with Anoon was to counter ridiculous assertions, such as "ZOMG, REVAN WAS THE BEST IN AN ORDER OF THOUSANDS!".

Revan was possibly the best in an age, where we have seen some formidable Jedi and Sith Warriors. If such type of warriors have existed in the time of Anoon Bondara and he was better then them, then you have a point and if not, then you don't.

Originally posted by Advent
Actually, on second glance, your sentence doesn't even appear to be formulated in a way that can be properly read. Wanna' try that again?

My point was that Revan has shown us that he faced many kinds of hard challenges and he prevailed in them all, which speaks highly about his skills. He was far more successful then Maul.

Originally posted by Advent
Again, I ask: "is believed"? By who? A crack whore with a bum leg? Not that it matters, as just because one is believed doesn't mean one actually is.

The Jedi Exile remembered Revan to be a user of Jar Kai. ACStyles have mentioned this already.

Originally posted by Advent
You've failed to prove that he is "among the greatest practitioners of Jar'Kai", which was your assertion. So, I'll assume that it was nothing more than bullshit from a lying fanboy.

Revan was a skilled swordsman. And according to Exile, he mastered Jar Kai.

Originally posted by Advent
And again, your precious Wookiepedia fails you:

"With Revan [...] as [a] possible practitioner".

QED.


They are being cautious but they never said that Revan was not a practitioner of Jar Kai.

Originally posted by Advent
Appeal to authority, logical fallacy (so because Wookiepedia said it, it must be true?).

Most of the information in wookieepedia is correct apart from a few errors or mistakes or assumptions.

Originally posted by Advent
A vision similar to that like the one Luke has on Dagobah. Is Darth Vader now Luke Skywalker in disguise? Your points holds no water.

Exile's vision was a different one and in her vision, Revan used Jar Kai.

Originally posted by Advent
O RLY? I suppose then, Chewbacca must've looked like a Big Foot meets Santa Claus meets the Seven Dwarfs at one point or another.


Am I supposed to laugh in this case?

Originally posted by Advent
Yeah. Concept art is only a rough idea, and it doesn't indicate what you need to prove up on anyways. You're suppose to showing me some concrete evidence that Revan is "among the greatest practitioners of Jar'Kai", not some children's crappy art work.

That concept art is from a comic and is not developed by a fan.