Revan vs. Maul

I don't know what it is that you agree with me on. Anyways, while Revan is indeed the superior tactician, what you seem to be saying is that more militaristic period equates to more power and more techniques. This is not only NOT the case, but it is a direct contradiction to the fact that the PT Jedi are in their respective peaks. Can you name me more than a few jedi/sith that were powerhouses in other areas? No? I can name you a lot of Jedi/Sith who were powerhouses in the pt era. The point is, being more militaristic doesn't make you more powerful.

Darth Sexy, I was agreeing with you over the Revan V Maul Battle results. Other then that, you have completely missed my point. The Jedi were not so much militaristic as they were involved in a great deal of strife, and thus, with active combat experience under their belts, they were indeed far more powerful then the PT era. You also failed to notice the fact that the KOTOR era had far more Sith and Jedi Lore available for learning, and thus were more powerful.

My point is that the half-assed peacekeeping drained the Jedi of experience, and they became stuck in limbo, with the only major reform in a forward direction being Mace Windu's Shatterpoint/Vaapad. Also, you talk about naming more 'powerhouses' in PT then KOTOR, but you again miss the point.

The 'powerhouses' of PT were, on average, not up to task with the ones that came before them and the ones after them. Because while both of the others were experienced in strife, and the former had some long-forgotten Jedi lore and techniques to boot, the Jedi of PT did not have that experience save some spontaneous peacekeeping, and it shows: they adopted Nimian, and watch how effective THAT is in the arena on Geonosis. That is my point, and numbers do not mattere as much as quality on average.

Originally posted by Tortoise Herder
Darth Sexy, I was agreeing with you over the Revan V Maul Battle results. Other then that, you have completely missed my point. The Jedi were not so much militaristic as they were involved in a great deal of strife, and thus, with active combat experience under their belts, they were indeed far more powerful then the PT era. You also failed to notice the fact that the KOTOR era had far more Sith and Jedi Lore available for learning, and thus were more powerful.

My point is that the half-assed peacekeeping drained the Jedi of experience, and they became stuck in limbo, with the only major reform in a forward direction being Mace Windu's Shatterpoint/Vaapad. Also, you talk about naming more 'powerhouses' in PT then KOTOR, but you again miss the point.

The 'powerhouses' of PT were, on average, not up to task with the ones that came before them and the ones after them. Because while both of the others were experienced in strife, and the former had some long-forgotten Jedi lore and techniques to boot, the Jedi of PT did not have that experience save some spontaneous peacekeeping, and it shows: they adopted Nimian, and watch how effective THAT is in the arena on Geonosis. That is my point, and numbers do not mattere as much as quality on average. [/B]

This again, goes against canon. Yoda was the most powerful Jedi up until Luke's time. Mace's shatterpoint and vaapad abilities made him a saber powerhouse. Dooku was one of the greatest Jedi in the 25,000 year old history and an even greater sith lord, not to mention the greatest of the "lost twenty". Your argument is severely flawed, which is why your conclusion is incorrect.

Your point is invalid, because it directly contradicts everything canon in star wars, and the fact that the PT era was "The golden age of the Jedi"

Has anyone at all here substantiated how GL saying vaguely that "Golden Age of the Jedi" equals PT Jedi being the most martially capable of all Jedi in the last 25,000 years? Especially since they haven't had any full-scale total war conflicts in "a thousand years" and their lightsaber training is limited to combating each other to gain in skill; not swatting at Sith and dark Jedi left and right who are trying to kill them?

I'm still curious about that one.

You have at LEAST 5-6 powerhouses in that era, whereas you have 1-2 from different KOTOR/TOTJ eras.

1. Define "powerhouse" and its meaning in this debate. Don't be vague.

2. Where are you getting "1-2 powerhouses" from the KotOR/ToTJ era anyways? Do you even know what you're talking about? Malak, before he became DLotS, was a legendary lightsaber user among his peers and strong in the Force (Strong enough that the Star Forge didn't destroy him as it destroyed the multitude of pretenders who followed him). Kavar, the famed Jedi Guardian, was noted beyond the Outer Rim by the Mandalorians as a "worthy opponent", and he teaches higher end lightsaber forms such as Juyo and Ataru. Kavar's shown knocking out an entire cantina with the Force without even killing anyone in the process.

Bastila was a Force prodigy, able to use Battle Meditation on such a level that her personal security was an issue of the Republic, who sent her under armed escort with at least one of their most capable known soldiers. She was powerful enough even to replace Darth Bandon as Malak's apprentice, and it is Sith tenets that teach only the strong are worthy of attaining power, clearly. Her mere presence at a battle usually determines its outcome.

Ulic Qel-Droma was a master swordsman (and yes, I know you hate it when I use that term) whose skill was absolutely amazing. He stalemated Exar Kun in a pitched battle, and beat down Mandalore while in a precarious position. Even more amazing is that even without the Force, he was able to maintain a defensive duel against an enraged Jedi Sylvar. Ulic's skills with a lightsaber even there outshine your average PT Jedi. I don't see Anoon Bandara or Cin Drallig or Ki-Adi-Mundi doing this.

You have Jedi Masters in these eras with literally awesome powers: some could make matter stronger than a lightsaber (Vodo), others could mindwipe living beings and recreate their memories (KotOR Jedi Council), block Sith from the Force (Nomi, Odan-Urr) and a multitude of other abilities not seen nor exactly surpassed by PT Jedi. Hell, even Luke Skywalker's band of JA misfits show Force control and martial capability surpassing PT Jedi, and it makes sense considering how conflict drove them to become dangerous fighters.

Not to mention, I believe the Clone Wars were even more devastating than the Jedi Civil War(although I prefer to think the Jedi Civil War was the most devastating until the Vong War), so it wasn't all peacetime for the PT Jedi.

Wow, so suddenly we care about what you believe based on what? Gut instinct? Magic 8-ball? The Clone Wars were hardly more "devastating" to the Jedi overall then the Jedi Civil War (though at the end of the former, the Jedi were annihilated, but this is more of a finality; they don't grow from this conflict because they die from it). For one thing, the battle of Geonosis is seen as perhaps the most devastating reversal to Jedi forces during the entire war, and only perhaps 200 Jedi die out of an order of 10,000. During the Jedi Civil War, an order of comparible size was decimated to barely a hundre. Kreia notes that many fell in battle, and even more were seduced to the Dark Side. This battle shattered the Jedi Order because of the conflict, though it drove some to become seasoned warriors. This is a far cry from the Clone Wars, where the majority of the fighting was done by naval ships and Clone Troopers or indigenous forces, with Jedi merely being generals or diplomats as the situation demanded. I mean hell, a year into the Clone Wars, and high-end figures like Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi were being sent to be diplomats with a neutral planet who was producing new biodroids. This doesn't strike me as a particularly balls-to-the-wall conflict like the Jedi Civil War where Jedi slew Dark Jedi left and right.

More resources does not equate to more power.

Not precisely; more resources do open one up for more vareity of powers and helps one master those powers. And considering that the Jedi Order itself was founded in a time of conflict and that those teachings trickled down through the ages until the Battle of Ruusan, where Jedi finally put away their battle armor and titles, gave away their troops and navies and became the police force of the Republic which hadn't seen another fullscale war for the next millenia.... Let's be reasonable here- there's nothing to support that PT Jedi are more "militant" or more martially capable than previous era Jedi. Theirs was a time of peace, a time of meditation where one could focus on Niman and not on Makashi, so to speak. It was, yes, a golden age of the Jedi, one where they did not need to fight and slaughter. But peace stagnates. This is universal.

Notice how during the KOTOR time, there was no defense for certain techniques (such as Nihilus' drain), and in the PT era, there are defenses for certain techniques.

Substantiate this, DS. Traya notes that there are "techniques in the Force against which there is no defense", but she does not name these techniques and the FMV shows her being Force pushed into a wall, beaten down physically and then continues with her saying she was broken down, stripped of her powers, and exiled.

And somehow you assert that in the PT era there are "defenses for certain techniques"(Again, being typically vague and showing no valid arguments or sources) and this somehow equates to better PT Jedi in combat? Is this how you think?

While more "lore" was available to ancient jedi/sith, the pt jedi/sith had the chance to capitalize on lost knowledge AND new knowledge.

The Jedi Order as of KotOR had multiple enclaves, libraries, and centers each stockpiled with learning from millenia. Thanks to the machinations of Revan, Malak, and Exar Kun, much was lost or plundered. In the wake of the Jedi Civil War when barely a hundred or so Jedi remained, much was plundered and sold by regular people even (See Dantooine). In case you don't recognize how profound of a loss this is, put it in this light:

The Jedi Order was over 20,000 years old at the time of the Jedi Civil War. Much of this knowledge was lost or misplaced, destroyed, died with the original owners, etc. Four thousand years later, any evidence we have of Jedi lore seems lax and certainly have less incentive to study martial feats. Yes, Jedi are shown to be able to slow their breathing, make sand whirl into an intricate pattern, speed themselves up, etc. But nothing groundbreaking when you compare it. There aren't PT Jedi becoming avatars of the Force through meditation and study. In fact, even for all their efforts, the PT Jedi suffered under a cloak of darkness during the Clone Wars, and they could not even sense a Dark Lord of the Sith in their presence. If this is the best the Jedi have to offer, well... it's pretty substandard.

And again, the point remains that conflict drives a Jedi and builds their abilities. You can even see this in the PT era- compare AotC Anakin and Obi-Wan versus their incarnations three years later- even the limited exposure to war and the Sith has made them absolutely amazing.

Not to mention, having more sith doesn't mean more knowledge. Notice how Sidious, who was 1 of 2 sith at all time during that last millennium, had more sith lore than ANY other sith in the history of star wars.

No, more Sith means more incentive to practice lightsaber duelling styles and tricks, defensive Force feats and so on. The earlier era had more experience in the matter in general, and more reference material. In the PT Jedi era, true lightsaber duelling is considered outdated; it's all about blaster bolt reflection.

And despite your vague, unsubstantied claim about Sidious, the point remains that the era was more warlike and had ready access to martially-focused material. This is evident.

This again, goes against canon. Yoda was the most powerful Jedi up until Luke's time.

Substantiate this. Show a reliable, non-third person source which lists Yoda as "the most powerful Jedi" in Jedi History until Luke Skywalker. Then, put it into context as to how Yoda's station in the Jedi Order reflects on his subordinates as martial Jedi.

Mace's shatterpoint and vaapad abilities made him a saber powerhouse.

But didn't make him better than Yoda, who practiced a lightsaber form thousands of years old. Mace's true strength over his PT Jedi is that he's the most martial-minded of Jedi. He's the one who is fueled by controlled passions and extensive saber practice. However, for all his martial ability and mindset, even Mace Windu is changed by his conflict on Haruun Kal, where he must confront war in person for perhaps the first time during the Clone Wars. He says it himself "Jedi are keepers of the peace; not soldiers". He reinforces their status of Republic policemen, not warriors.

Again, conflict strengthens. It's like the old adage- the blade must pass through the fire, or else it will break when used.

Dooku was one of the greatest Jedi in the 25,000 year old history and an even greater sith lord, not to mention the greatest of the "lost twenty".

Dooku was the PT-era Jedi's best student according to Yoda, and a great Sith Lord for personal power (He was much much older than any Sith Lord we've read about save for ancients like Ragnos and Sadow) and his dedication to what? A lightsaber form barely used in his own time. A lightsaber form used mostly when? In earlier timeframes. Dooku was the only living master of Makashi in the PT era; the only living master of the form dedicated solely to lightsaber duelling.

During the Jedi Civil War, before, and after, lightsaber duelling and battling was more important than the PT era, and certainly more practiced. So using Dooku in your sweeping generalization is inaccurate; Dooku was portrayed as an archaic oddball whose potential was virtually unrivaled by any Jedi save for Yoda and Anakin Skywalker.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Has anyone at all here substantiated how GL saying vaguely that "Golden Age of the Jedi" equals PT Jedi being the most martially capable of all Jedi in the last 25,000 years? Especially since they haven't had any full-scale total war conflicts in "a thousand years" and their lightsaber training is limited to combating each other to gain in skill; not swatting at Sith and dark Jedi left and right who are trying to kill them?

I'm still curious about that one.

1. Define "powerhouse" and its meaning in this debate. Don't be vague.

2. Where are you getting "1-2 powerhouses" from the KotOR/ToTJ era anyways? Do you even know what you're talking about? Malak, before he became DLotS, was a legendary lightsaber user among his peers and strong in the Force (Strong enough that the Star Forge didn't destroy him as it destroyed the multitude of pretenders who followed him). Kavar, the famed Jedi Guardian, was noted beyond the Outer Rim by the Mandalorians as a "worthy opponent", and he teaches higher end lightsaber forms such as Juyo and Ataru. Kavar's shown knocking out an entire cantina with the Force without even killing anyone in the process.

Bastila was a Force prodigy, able to use Battle Meditation on such a level that her personal security was an issue of the Republic, who sent her under armed escort with at least one of their most capable known soldiers. She was powerful enough even to replace Darth Bandon as Malak's apprentice, and it is Sith tenets that teach only the strong are worthy of attaining power, clearly. Her mere presence at a battle usually determines its outcome.

Ulic Qel-Droma was a master swordsman (and yes, I know you hate it when I use that term) whose skill was absolutely amazing. He stalemated Exar Kun in a pitched battle, and beat down Mandalore while in a precarious position. Even more amazing is that even without the Force, he was able to maintain a defensive duel against an enraged Jedi Sylvar. Ulic's skills with a lightsaber even there outshine your average PT Jedi. I don't see Anoon Bandara or Cin Drallig or Ki-Adi-Mundi doing this.

You have Jedi Masters in these eras with literally awesome powers: some could make matter stronger than a lightsaber (Vodo), others could mindwipe living beings and recreate their memories (KotOR Jedi Council), block Sith from the Force (Nomi, Odan-Urr) and a multitude of other abilities not seen nor exactly surpassed by PT Jedi. Hell, even Luke Skywalker's band of JA misfits show Force control and martial capability surpassing PT Jedi, and it makes sense considering how conflict drove them to become dangerous fighters.

Wow, so suddenly we care about what you believe based on what? Gut instinct? Magic 8-ball? The Clone Wars were hardly more "devastating" to the Jedi overall then the Jedi Civil War (though at the end of the former, the Jedi were annihilated, but this is more of a finality; they don't grow from this conflict because they die from it). For one thing, the battle of Geonosis is seen as perhaps the most devastating reversal to Jedi forces during the entire war, and only perhaps 200 Jedi die out of an order of 10,000. During the Jedi Civil War, an order of comparible size was decimated to barely a hundre. Kreia notes that many fell in battle, and even more were seduced to the Dark Side. This battle shattered the Jedi Order because of the conflict, though it drove some to become seasoned warriors. This is a far cry from the Clone Wars, where the majority of the fighting was done by naval ships and Clone Troopers or indigenous forces, with Jedi merely being generals or diplomats as the situation demanded. I mean hell, a year into the Clone Wars, and high-end figures like Kit Fisto and Obi-Wan Kenobi were being sent to be diplomats with a neutral planet who was producing new biodroids. This doesn't strike me as a particularly balls-to-the-wall conflict like the Jedi Civil War where Jedi slew Dark Jedi left and right.

Not precisely; more resources do open one up for more vareity of powers and helps one master those powers. And considering that the Jedi Order itself was founded in a time of conflict and that those teachings trickled down through the ages until the Battle of Ruusan, where Jedi finally put away their battle armor and titles, gave away their troops and navies and became the police force of the Republic which hadn't seen another fullscale war for the next millenia.... Let's be reasonable here- there's nothing to support that PT Jedi are more "militant" or more martially capable than previous era Jedi. Theirs was a time of peace, a time of meditation where one could focus on Niman and not on Makashi, so to speak. It was, yes, a golden age of the Jedi, one where they did not need to fight and slaughter. But peace stagnates. This is universal.

Substantiate this, DS. Traya notes that there are "techniques in the Force against which there is no defense", but she does not name these techniques and the FMV shows her being Force pushed into a wall, beaten down physically and then continues with her saying she was broken down, stripped of her powers, and exiled.

[qote]And somehow you assert that in the PT era there are "defenses for certain techniques"(Again, being typically vague and showing no valid arguments or sources) and this somehow equates to better PT Jedi in combat? Is this how you think?[/quote]
What arguments do I have to make Janus? I type this because I assume that you know what I'm talking about (given that you have all of the sources or at the very least, more than myself). Some people on this forum play dumb but I didn't know I'm supposed to write a rebuttal so concise that even a 3 year old would understand it.

The Jedi Order as of KotOR had multiple enclaves, libraries, and centers each stockpiled with learning from millenia. Thanks to the machinations of Revan, Malak, and Exar Kun, much was lost or plundered. In the wake of the Jedi Civil War when barely a hundred or so Jedi remained, much was plundered and sold by regular people even (See Dantooine). In case you don't recognize how profound of a loss this is, put it in this light:

The Jedi Order was over 20,000 years old at the time of the Jedi Civil War. Much of this knowledge was lost or misplaced, destroyed, died with the original owners, etc. Four thousand years later, any evidence we have of Jedi lore seems lax and certainly have less incentive to study martial feats. Yes, Jedi are shown to be able to slow their breathing, make sand whirl into an intricate pattern, speed themselves up, etc. But nothing groundbreaking when you compare it. There aren't PT Jedi becoming avatars of the Force through meditation and study. In fact, even for all their efforts, the PT Jedi suffered under a cloak of darkness during the Clone Wars, and they could not even sense a Dark Lord of the Sith in their presence. If this is the best the Jedi have to offer, well... it's pretty substandard.

And again, the point remains that conflict drives a Jedi and builds their abilities. You can even see this in the PT era- compare AotC Anakin and Obi-Wan versus their incarnations three years later- even the limited exposure to war and the Sith has made them absolutely amazing.

No, more Sith means more incentive to practice lightsaber duelling styles and tricks, defensive Force feats and so on. The earlier era had more experience in the matter in general, and more reference material. In the PT Jedi era, true lightsaber duelling is considered outdated; it's all about blaster bolt reflection.

And despite your vague, unsubstantied claim about Sidious, the point remains that the era was more warlike and had ready access to martially-focused material. This is evident.

Substantiate this. Show a reliable, non-third person source which lists Yoda as "the most powerful Jedi" in Jedi History until Luke Skywalker. Then, put it into context as to how Yoda's station in the Jedi Order reflects on his subordinates as martial Jedi.

But didn't make him better than Yoda, who practiced a lightsaber form thousands of years old. Mace's true strength over his PT Jedi is that he's the most martial-minded of Jedi. He's the one who is fueled by controlled passions and extensive saber practice. However, for all his martial ability and mindset, even Mace Windu is changed by his conflict on Haruun Kal, where he must confront war in person for perhaps the first time during the Clone Wars. He says it himself "Jedi are keepers of the peace; not soldiers". He reinforces their status of Republic policemen, not warriors.

Again, conflict strengthens. It's like the old adage- the blade must pass through the fire, or else it will break when used.

Do we have ANY knowledge of his saber or force abilities Janus? Or are you using 3rd party sources to prove a point?

Apparently you have no knowledge of his saber or Force abilities, or else you'd never make such a silly statement. Please, go and actually play the game, tdtd. Find out for yourself.

Excuse me? Bastilla was a force prodigy because she had the innate ability of battle meditation? Please tells us how that translates into her being a force prodigy? Last time I checked, nothing else about her was anything special.

Again, I have to question if you have even played the games, tdtd. Bastila is noted by the council as being brash, but extremely gifted in the Force. Powerful enough to lead a strike team against a Dark Lord of the Sith, powerful enough to heal his mind and body when he was nearly killed in the battle, powerful enough to Force bond with him and certainly capable enough to instruct him fully in the uses of the Force before all the other masters of the council. When Malak captures her and turns her, her Force powers only increase, and she becomes capable enough to completely incapacitate Jolee Bindo and Juhani with no effort whatsoever.

She was powerful enough to replace Bandon, GOLLY GEE. Bandon was what, worthless? Do we have ANY proof that anyone besides Malak wielded considerable power?

Again, see the official bio for Darth Bandon on the KotOR website; Bandon is DLotS above everyone in the Sith Empire save for Malak himself. He's noted as being a skilled and violent fighter who's slain many Jedi. When he boarded Bastila's ship, he proceeded to massacre everything in his path, including a few Jedi bodyguards. Seeing as the Sith just don't let people into the higher ranks based on their credit ratings, it's possible that he's there because he's STRONG and very GOOD with a lightsaber, don't you think?

What do you define as "amazing"?

It amuses me when you try to hide being a dumbass by being a smartass. Sort of like a wolf struggling to fit into sheep's skin to fool the pack. If you can't define "amazing" and its context in my sentence, you are completely incapable of seeing reason. I asked you to define "powerhouse" because you sling it around like it's a definate title with real and objective properties. It doesn't have those in this debate. You introduced the term and therefore you must define it or stop using it. Or both. I don't care.

Jesus Janus, how does the ability to make your stick as strong as a saber make you a powerhouse?

Define powerhouse in your context, please. Name the defining characteristics of all the characters you've listed as "powerhouses" and provide sources for such assertions.

Or STFU and stop using vague phrases to justify your positions. Your debating level leaves much to be desired.

Last time I checked, the techniques used by the KOTOR Jedi were accessible through the Jedi Holocron.

Which techniques? The Jedi Holocron? You mean there's only one? What, is it like the Jedi Internet? Or do you mean the "Great Holocron"? I have yet to see where all techniques unique to the KotOR Jedi or previous eras were readily accessible through the Great Holocron. Considering the Great Holocron is made for trainees and any type of Force user further undermines the idea that it contains a boatload of secret techniques that ancient Jedi Masters would have kept in their own private holocrons, which in particular, Arca Jeth and Vodo were known to do.

The blocking technique is cool and all but we saw what effect it has on a superior force user. Knowing that technique doesn't make you powerful unless you have the ability to use it.

You're missing something entirely- Odan-Urr had used the technique enough and refined it enough that he felt it terrible and only to be used as a last resort. He then tried this terrible art on Exar Kun who shrugged it off. Knowing the technique does make you more powerful, but if your opponent is one of the most dangerous Dark Lords in Jedi history it's possible that he may resist it. Odan-Urr never gave any indication that the technique had been resisted, and the ease of which Nomi used it on Ulic implies that the technique isn't easily blocked. It has less to do with Odan-Urr being somehow weak and everything to do with Exar Kun being ridiculously strong.

Notice how I said that I myself lean towards the JCW being more devastating, yet the Clone Wars took care of the Jedi more efficiently. You have to take order 66 as part of the battle. Otherwise I agree, that the JCW was FAR more devastating on a galactic scale.

No, I don't have to take Order 66 as part of the battle, because the entire point of bringing up the wars was that wars strengthen Jedi through conflict and help them grow, and Order 66, which is the main thing that decimated the Jedi, not the Clone Wars themselves, didn't leave very many behind to grow from the experience. There's a distinct difference in Jedi being mowed down by droids in a few altercations here and there (But nowhere near as bad as at Geonosis) and then they win the war by being generals and diplomats versus the Jedi Civil War where knowing lightsaber usage was absolutely vital to your existance.

First of all, unless there are sources (I'm not sure) substantiating the "golden age of the Jedi", it's all relative. Secondly, I never stated the PT Jedi were more militant, in fact I stated the exact opposite. But again, you're operating under the assumption that more militaristic=more powerful.

The idea of being more martial equating better personal power seems to be a logical line of thought. The counterargument that you imply (Which is that they are less martial and somehow more powerful for it) begs for some good arguments. Especially when the lightsaber ability of the majority of the PT Order is shown to be woefully inaccurate and the Jedi themselves time and again shown to be unprepared for war and in some cases unable to withstand its effects (Depa, for instance.) The KotOR Jedi Order had been through numerous conflicts involving Jedi versus Sith combat over the course of many years, in addition to fullscale wars such as the Mandalorian Wars, which were far more horrific and total then the Clone Wars.

So are you assuming that any KOTOR Jedi is more powerful than any PT Jedi? Or the average KOTOR Jedi are more powerful than the average PT Jedi?

I'm pointing out that the KotOR Jedi are more experienced in war in general, and in lightsaber combat. And they have been through more conflict, which is shown to be a source of growth and incentive enough to make Jedi excel whereas they could only stagnate in times of peace. The Jedi of the KotOR are Knights who are shown wearing battle armor, fighting their dark rivals and their troops in all manner of battlefields, fighting for their very existance over a three plus year period in a time when a Jedi had more to fear from a Sith's sword then from a droid's blaster bolt. PT Jedi are shown being diplomats, political body guards, and Republic peacekeepers; never soldiers. The masters acknowledge it themselves.

Janus, I didn't know everything had to be spelled out for you, but ok. We know Nihilus has his force killer. We also see that what he does is NOT a force push, but similar to a force drain, because Kreia is unable to wield the force for some time after this event (hence cast down and stripped).

You apparently don't know jack about what you're talking about, tdtd. Traya is shown being force-pushed in the cutscene. There's no characteristic red lightning effect shown every single time someone uses Force drain in the series. So there goes your assertion. Traya notes she was "stripped of her powers", yet she is a fully functioning Force user and not a hollowed husk of dead matter like everyone else in the series who experiences the Force drain of Nihilus. Your argument makes absolutely no sense in light of the evidence.

In the PT time and NJO time, Luke and Yoda learn the looping technique (Luke knows it, Yoda is a more logical assumption because he studied with the Fallanassi). So there's one instance of having a defense for a technique that had none 4,000 years before. Not to mention, I believe most of the ancient knowledge is in the Jedi Holocron in the PT time.

What in the world are you talking about? Where is there ever an indication of Luke or Yoda encountering a Force drain and defending against it? And to expand on that point twofold: where is there an instance of either Luke or Yoda defending against a Force drain of Nihilus' magnitude, and even if there was, what bearing does it have on the PT Jedi? Luke's not one of them and Yoda is the epitome of the exception to the rule. Of all the Jedi, only Yoda was keen enough to sense Order 66, was keen enough to sense death and despair across the galaxy, down an attacking group of Clone troopers with no effort, etc. When you say "Yoda did this" you pretty much exclude any other PT Jedi, as he's on his own level.

Trust me Janus, as a huge fan of Revan and the whole KOTOR scene, I know exactly what it means. But you're assuming that most of the techniques were lost, and wouldn't be found again at all. I'm sure you're aware of the secrets in the Jedi Holocron. Hell I mean just look at the fact that Darth Krayt somehow stumbled onto 3 holocrons that nobody was really rumored to have, ON KORRIBAN of all places..

Not all techniques lost, no. But the most dangerous ones... the most "terrible" ones, ones which ancient Jedi masters kept and honed for emergency use only, were kept in private holocrons, most of which are unaccounted for. The Great Holocron has absolutely no security other than a monitor watching the user. I find it doubful that high level Jedi techniques which make for more martial Jedi are squirrelled away in there.

And yes, it is a bit of a bother than Darth Krayt found anything at all, considering the time difference. I'm still not sure how Sidious is supposed to have amassed such a collection considering that Korriban was up for grabs four millennia before he ever stepped foot on the place.

You're attributing Anakin's increase in skill due to the war. Nevermind the fact that he was the son of the force, and therefore had more potential than anybody else.

Anakin's increase in skill was due to the war, unless you want to make the assertion that he just happened to get much better while growing older and fighting. Don't be daft.

As for this "son of the Force" bullshit, you can leave that at the door. We have the fleeting word of a desert slave on the father of Anakin, and his massive midi-chlorian rating. Considering that Yoda's the only person in SW history that Anakin's midi-chlorian rating has been compared to, this doesn't make him the best in potential. And certainly, his potential doesn't make him exponentially get stronger by simply being alive; back to the original point, the war made him better. Period.

Nevermind the fact that his power apparently "Doubled" within 3 years.

Lol. So he puffs up his chest and tells the Count that his powers have doubled, ergo it is true? Do you read this stuff before you click submit?

That's more of an exception than the rule, and it had less to do with the war than him being the son of the force and constantly learning.

Constantly learning what? How? You mean to tell me that Anakin was somehow breaking open books and taking classes while a Republic-scale war was raging for three years, that and the fact that the Force was paying his child support checks and somehow that equals out to him being stronger in three years? Oh but it had nothing to do with conflict, because that would undermine your pathetic argument.

Where does it say that true lightsaber dueling is considered outdated?

It's stated right in the original description for Makashi by the creators of the form. It's also all over EU books and sources.

Wasn't it stated that the PT Era was the peak of saber combat?

No, it isn't. You should put the pipe down and go find some valid sources. Stop arguing out of your ass for once.

Furthermore, when do we see instances of incredible force techniques aside from the obvious people I've mentioned, in the KOTOR times? As far as I remember, the JCW was pretty much a galaxy wide space battle, so I don't see how they had a chance to "improve" their force abilities.

I'm not sure why you think they came into the Jedi Civil War with no Force refinement whatsoever. I mean, look at ToTJ era, forty years earlier... Nomi had barely picked up a lightsaber and Odan-Urr was teaching her how to block a Sith from the Force to protect others. It's quite obvious that they took their studies seriously since the Sith weren't some myth in their era like they were in the PT era. Hell, by TPM the Jedi thought the Sith were all but extinct. Why would they sit around making better dark Jedi fighting abilities when they were policemen who hadn't seen bad times in millennia?

Most powerful foe darkness has ever known?

I've heard this from you before, but never with a source attached. I doubt if you have a source, as you seldom do. I don't see how some nebulous source claiming Sidious to be the most powerful dark dude of all time is relevant, considering that the NEC is clearly written by a fallible post-Empire historian and that no other sources are forthcoming which are not subject to interpretation issues. Clearly, nothing's listed RotS Sidious as the best lightsaber fighter of the Sith Order, and if he is, then it stands to reason that Yoda can wipe his green ass with anyone in the history of Star Wars with the saber. And I just find that a bit of a strentch.

The fact that he had access to the Jedi holocron?

You mean the "Great Holocron" that even padawans had access to?

Can you name ANYBODY from the KOTOR times, that COULD be more powerful than the 800 year old master?

I'm not referencing the KotOR timeframe here, tdtd. You brought the assertion up that Yoda > all for all time in the Jedi Order. This is a pretty tall order, considering it's never been made before and certainly is a stance I wouldn't venture to take. Yoda isn't the best Jedi fighter and master in the Order simply because "no one in the KotOR era seems to beat him in sheer feats and powers", especially considering that of all the Jedi masters in SW EU, Yoda has the most exposure.

It made Mace more efficient against the dark siders in saber combat, than Yoda. If you want proof, see their respective duels against Sidious (OBJECTIVELY).

It made Mace Windu the only Jedi in the entire PT who could absorb Sith Lightning without expending too much of his own energy, according to Stover's depiction of the events. Yoda was able to repel it, but only by using his own energy. Really, I don't see how this made Mace a better fighter than Yoda. Sure, it added him when he was defending the Sith Lightning, but at that point he had already beaten Sidious. Yoda, for his own part, nearly beat Sidious in their duel and in the end still had the upper hand until the concussion knocked him to the bottom of the senate chamber floor. In either case, Mace and Yoda can defeat a Sith Lord in combat. Other members of the Jedi Order showed remarkable inability to adapt to fighting against other lightsaber users. For example, Jedi Knights and masters in the double digits lost their lives to assajj Ventress, who had no formal Sith training.

So you would be saying that because the KOTOR JEdi are more militaristic, as a whole they MUST be more powerful than the PT Jedi.

I'm saying that their training, their experiences, and their abilities make them more capable in lightsaber/Force-oriented combat than the PT Jedi, and this is obviously very true. I bet that the PT Order has more Soresu practitioners among their ranks for sure, and definately more Niman users, for what that's worth.

According to all the books and sources you've read, I'm sure you understand this is not only untrue, but directly contradictory to Star Wars.

This is funny coming from you, a self-professed Star Wars ignoramus. Seriously, your sig states "Fear what you don't understand". You must be one scared little kid.

Correction: This was supposed to be the first half of the debate.

Nobody's really substantiated it. Someone mentioned that it was the golden age of saber combat, others stated that the most powerful jedi/sith were around during the PT era.

Then why are you swinging it around like it's the gospel truth? If it's not substantiated, how is it a valid point? How does it support your argument that "PT Jedi > All = Canon"?

Yoda, Sidious, Mace, Dooku, Anakin, Exar Kun, Revan, Nadd..

I said define powerhousein specific terms, DS. Apparently you are incapable of reading. I suggest you sit down, take your time, and have a nearby adult sort out anything that seems too deep for you. Simply listing names doesn't define a word that you've introduced as part of your argument.

Where is the source stating that Malak was a legendary lightsaber combatant?

Malak's official bio on the old KotOR site.

Since you're asking me to define terms, please quantify "strong", and its correlation to the ability to withstand the star forge?

Strong in the Force in this context obviously means someone who's strong in comparison with the majority, i.e. among the best. I'm surprised you couldn't figure that out on your own, seeing as a nine year old can do it.

As for the Star Forge, if you played KotOR II more than once and paid attention, you'd know that the Star Forge gains its power partially by the star it's attached to, but also it draws on the Force itself. The Rataka people were nearly annihilated because their use of the device reached a point where it could not be controlled. After Revan defeated Malak, Bastila notes (in the Dark side version of KotOR II) that every Sith who tried to use and control the Star Forge was obliterated by its powers. The only two people we see using the artifact without ill effects is Malak and Revan. Even Bastila does not attempt to use the device.

The mandalorians calling Kavar a worthy opponent makes him a powerhouse?

If by "powerhouse" you mean a martially capable Jedi and among the best of his time, then yes. Mandalorians respected honest warriors and anyone who could hold their own in combat was to be admired. Their knowledge of him (When they considered most Jedi to be weak and beneath notice) and their praise of him speaks measures of his abilities. It's similar to the situation where a security guard captain on Haruun Kal recognizes Mace Windu not by face but by his name and states that it's "not such a bad thing" being defeated by him. Mace is, apparently by your description, a "powerhouse". I'm not stating that Kavar is Mace's equal or better; there's nowhere near enough material surrouding Kavar to ever make such a claim. The point remains that Kavar is renowned in his era for his martial prowess, he teaches lightsaber training forms (Including Juyo which is a master's style), uses Jar'Kai masterfully, and survived the Jedi Purge despite being a big target.

Do I think Kavar is a great Jedi in the KotOR timeline? Yes, I do. The Jedi do, and the Mandalorians do. They all accord him respect for his fighting ability.

I will have to interrupt with a few things:
What, exactly are the great feats of the Ancient Jedi Orders to set them above? Comparatively now? Lucas refers directly to the PT Jedi as the 'Prime of the Jedi,' so take that however you will.
What's skeptical here: The Orders has a whole...what sets the KOTOR ones above from the rest? I'll remind you for any bad PT order showing, I could find a few others from the Ancient Jedi (having whole temples wiped out by Krath War Droids for a start)

The most powerful foe the darkness etc etc. bit comes from the ROTS novelization...and it's more than the NEC that lists Palpatine as the most powerful Sith ever.

Though I will say, when we compare orders, I think we've grown to compare 'top people of the Order' rather than anything else, though that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi in history per ROTS is substantiated by several sources, first of which being the ROTS novelization (Stover backs this opinion up, as has Veitch, both of whom citing Lucas as a source for their decision when asked)

Yea lightsnake we all know this, the problem is Janus has a different translation for everything PT. And Janice, I don't really care right now so I'll get to what I hope is a wonderfully written rebuttal, manana.

Btw, Janus, to go a little further on what the PT Jedi did have, besides the Great Holocron:

There's a large, large room full of all known Sith holcorons in existence (Save the ones the Sith Order already had), which only he top masters studied. There's a similarly large room of Jedi holocrons, including Vodo's, Bodo's, Arca's, and many other Jedi of the past. Again, reserved for higher level, so not as strict.

Circa 2000 BBY, There were massive efforts to restore the lost knowledge of the past and keep it preserved. The efforts for the most part, led in part by Phanius who'd later become Darth Ruin, were highly succesful.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Apparently you have no knowledge of his saber or Force abilities, or else you'd never make such a silly statement. Please, go and actually play the game, tdtd. Find out for yourself.

Again, I have to question if you have even played the games, tdtd. Bastila is noted by the council as being brash, but extremely gifted in the Force. Powerful enough to lead a strike team against a Dark Lord of the Sith, powerful enough to heal his mind and body when he was nearly killed in the battle, powerful enough to Force bond with him and certainly capable enough to instruct him fully in the uses of the Force before all the other masters of the council. When Malak captures her and turns her, her Force powers only increase, and she becomes capable enough to completely incapacitate Jolee Bindo and Juhani with no effort whatsoever.

Again, see the official bio for Darth Bandon on the KotOR website; Bandon is DLotS above everyone in the Sith Empire save for Malak himself. He's noted as being a skilled and violent fighter who's slain many Jedi. When he boarded Bastila's ship, he proceeded to massacre everything in his path, including a few Jedi bodyguards. Seeing as the Sith just don't let people into the higher ranks based on their credit ratings, it's possible that he's there because he's STRONG and very GOOD with a lightsaber, don't you think?

It amuses me when you try to hide being a dumbass by being a smartass. Sort of like a wolf struggling to fit into sheep's skin to fool the pack. If you can't define "amazing" and its context in my sentence, you are completely incapable of seeing reason. I asked you to define "powerhouse" because you sling it around like it's a definate title with real and objective properties. It doesn't have those in this debate. You introduced the term and therefore you must define it or stop using it. Or both. I don't care.

Or STFU and stop using vague phrases to justify your positions. Your debating level leaves much to be desired.

Which techniques? The Jedi Holocron? You mean there's only one? What, is it like the Jedi Internet? Or do you mean the "Great Holocron"? I have yet to see where all techniques unique to the KotOR Jedi or previous eras were readily accessible through the Great Holocron. Considering the Great Holocron is made for trainees and any type of Force user further undermines the idea that it contains a boatload of secret techniques that ancient Jedi Masters would have kept in their own private holocrons, which in particular, Arca Jeth and Vodo were known to do.

You're missing something entirely- Odan-Urr had used the technique enough and refined it enough that he felt it terrible and only to be used as a last resort. He then tried this terrible art on Exar Kun who shrugged it off. Knowing the technique does make you more powerful, but if your opponent is one of the most dangerous Dark Lords in Jedi history it's possible that he may resist it. Odan-Urr never gave any indication that the technique had been resisted, and the ease of which Nomi used it on Ulic implies that the technique isn't easily blocked. It has less to do with Odan-Urr being somehow weak and everything to do with Exar Kun being ridiculously strong.

No, I don't have to take Order 66 as part of the battle, because the entire point of bringing up the wars was that wars strengthen Jedi through conflict and help them grow, and Order 66, which is the main thing that decimated the Jedi, not the Clone Wars themselves, didn't leave very many behind to grow from the experience. There's a distinct difference in Jedi being mowed down by droids in a few altercations here and there (But nowhere near as bad as at Geonosis) and then they win the war by being generals and diplomats versus the Jedi Civil War where knowing lightsaber usage was absolutely vital to your existance.

The idea of being more martial equating better personal power seems to be a logical line of thought. The counterargument that you imply (Which is that they are less martial and somehow more powerful for it) begs for some good arguments. Especially when the lightsaber ability of the majority of the PT Order is shown to be woefully inaccurate and the Jedi themselves time and again shown to be unprepared for war and in some cases unable to withstand its effects (Depa, for instance.) The KotOR Jedi Order had been through numerous conflicts involving Jedi versus Sith combat over the course of many years, in addition to fullscale wars such as the Mandalorian Wars, which were far more horrific and total then the Clone Wars.

I'm pointing out that the KotOR Jedi are more experienced in war in general, and in lightsaber combat. And they have been through more conflict, which is shown to be a source of growth and incentive enough to make Jedi excel whereas they could only stagnate in times of peace. The Jedi of the KotOR are Knights who are shown wearing battle armor, fighting their dark rivals and their troops in all manner of battlefields, fighting for their very existance over a three plus year period in a time when a Jedi had more to fear from a Sith's sword then from a droid's blaster bolt. PT Jedi are shown being diplomats, political body guards, and Republic peacekeepers; never soldiers. The masters acknowledge it themselves.

You apparently don't know jack about what you're talking about, tdtd. Traya is shown being force-pushed in the cutscene. There's no characteristic red lightning effect shown every single time someone uses Force drain in the series. So there goes your assertion. Traya notes she was "stripped of her powers", yet she is a fully functioning Force user and not a hollowed husk of dead matter like everyone else in the series who experiences the Force drain of Nihilus. Your argument makes absolutely no sense in light of the evidence.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Not all techniques lost, no. But the most dangerous ones... the most "terrible" ones, ones which ancient Jedi masters kept and honed for emergency use only, were kept in private holocrons, most of which are unaccounted for. The Great Holocron has absolutely no security other than a monitor watching the user. I find it doubful that high level Jedi techniques which make for more martial Jedi are squirrelled away in there.

And yes, it is a bit of a bother than Darth Krayt found anything at all, considering the time difference. I'm still not sure how Sidious is supposed to have amassed such a collection considering that Korriban was up for grabs four millennia before he ever stepped foot on the place.

Anakin's increase in skill was due to the war, unless you want to make the assertion that he just happened to get much better while growing older and fighting. Don't be daft.

As for this "son of the Force" bullshit, you can leave that at the door. We have the fleeting word of a desert slave on the father of Anakin, and his massive midi-chlorian rating. Considering that Yoda's the only person in SW history that Anakin's midi-chlorian rating has been compared to, this doesn't make him the best in potential. And certainly, his potential doesn't make him exponentially get stronger by simply being alive; back to the original point, the war made him better. Period.

Lol. So he puffs up his chest and tells the Count that his powers have doubled, ergo it is true? Do you read this stuff before you click submit?

Constantly learning what? How? You mean to tell me that Anakin was somehow breaking open books and taking classes while a Republic-scale war was raging for three years, that and the fact that the Force was paying his child support checks and somehow that equals out to him being stronger in three years? Oh but it had nothing to do with conflict, because that would undermine your pathetic argument.

No, it isn't. You should put the pipe down and go find some valid sources. Stop arguing out of your ass for once.

I'm not sure why you think they came into the Jedi Civil War with no Force refinement whatsoever. I mean, look at ToTJ era, forty years earlier... Nomi had barely picked up a lightsaber and Odan-Urr was teaching her how to block a Sith from the Force to protect others. It's quite obvious that they took their studies seriously since the Sith weren't some myth in their era like they were in the PT era. Hell, by TPM the Jedi thought the Sith were all but extinct. Why would they sit around making better dark Jedi fighting abilities when they were policemen who hadn't seen bad times in millennia?

I've heard this from you before, but never with a source attached. I doubt if you have a source, as you seldom do. I don't see how some nebulous source claiming Sidious to be the most powerful dark dude of all time is relevant, considering that the NEC is clearly written by a fallible post-Empire historian and that no other sources are forthcoming which are not subject to interpretation issues. Clearly, nothing's listed RotS Sidious as the best lightsaber fighter of the Sith Order, and if he is, then it stands to reason that Yoda can wipe his green ass with anyone in the history of Star Wars with the saber. And I just find that a bit of a strentch.

I'm not referencing the KotOR timeframe here, tdtd. You brought the assertion up that Yoda > all for all time in the Jedi Order. This is a pretty tall order, considering it's never been made before and certainly is a stance I wouldn't venture to take. Yoda isn't the best Jedi fighter and master in the Order simply because "no one in the KotOR era seems to beat him in sheer feats and powers", especially considering that of all the Jedi masters in SW EU, Yoda has the most exposure.

It made Mace Windu the only Jedi in the entire PT who could absorb Sith Lightning without expending too much of his own energy, according to Stover's depiction of the events. Yoda was able to repel it, but only by using his own energy. Really, I don't see how this made Mace a better fighter than Yoda. Sure, it added him when he was defending the Sith Lightning, but at that point he had already beaten Sidious. Yoda, for his own part, nearly beat Sidious in their duel and in the end still had the upper hand until the concussion knocked him to the bottom of the senate chamber floor. In either case, Mace and Yoda can defeat a Sith Lord in combat. Other members of the Jedi Order showed remarkable inability to adapt to fighting against other lightsaber users. For example, Jedi Knights and masters in the double digits lost their lives to assajj Ventress, who had no formal Sith training.

This is funny coming from you, a self-professed Star Wars ignoramus. Seriously, your sig states "Fear what you don't understand". You must be one scared little kid. [/B]

Yes, scared little kid. Gosh Janus, you seem to take star wars debating way too seriously. Maybe you should spend some more time at your 9-5. But please, explain to me how I'm a self professed Star Wars ignoramus.. I didn't know not knowing every detail about everything that only people with too much time on their hands know, makes me ignorant. In fact I've repeatedly stated that I argue only WHAT I know based on what SOURCES I have. I often wonder if you know how to read...

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Then please enlighten me Janus. Since certain quotes such as "strongest foe darkness has ever known" is "unsubstantiated", please make an argument for anybody that CAN beat Yoda, other than DE Sidious and Luke.

- Darth Traya
- Darth Revan
- Darth Nihilus

Now I will explain how!

Darth Traya:

She knows a very powerful draining technique that can be lethal to most Jedi. She pwned 3 powerful Jedi Masters with a flick of her hand in a matter of few seconds with that technique.

And like Yoda, Traya can also perform Force Wave.

Darth Revan:

This guy is known to have possessed knowledge of some very deadly sith techniques. One such technique is the freaking "Force Lightning Storm."

I don't think that anybody can block a freaking "Force Lightning Storm" with bare hands or even a Light Saber. And when this kind of Lightning hits a living being, it has the intensity to reduce any living organism in to ashes in a very short amount of time. So now you do the math.

And I wish that Drew reveals the names of some other very deadly techniques that Revan knew in his future comics.

Darth Nihilus:

This guy knows a Force Killer technique that can kill an entire planet. I don't think that Yoda can defend against this kind of technique either.

So there are indeed some other people who can beat Yoda. Thus despite being referred to as "The greatest foe that darkness has seen" which he is obviously not, I don't think that he can be defeated by only two people in the entire SW Universe.

We've been round and round with this before, LeGenD. Yoda was confirmed by a source of higher authority than any you've just cited to be the "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known".

If you don't like it, you'll have to refute it. Sadly, you're dealing with a G-canon source there.

Originally posted by Gideon
We've been round and round with this before, LeGenD. Yoda was confirmed by a source of higher authority than any you've just cited to be the "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known".

If you don't like it, you'll have to refute it. Sadly, you're dealing with a G-canon source there.

That line is true in the sense that Yoda is indeed among the most powerful Jedi that we have ever seen but it is indeed hyperbolic in terms of claiming that only Yoda is the greatest foe that darkness has ever seen.

And there are indeed some other people who can defeat Yoda apart from DE Sidious and Luke.

And the next line is "he did not had it" also matters.

I'm sorry, LeGenD, but that line doesn't matter, or factor into this at all. The quote -- directed by the omniscient narrator of a G-canon source -- states explicitly that Yoda is "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known". What does this mean? It means that Yoda is simply more powerful than any light-sider or Jedi that came before him. Not that he is necessarily more powerful than any dark-sider or Sith Lord before him.

That line is true in the sense that Yoda is indeed among the most powerful Jedi that we have ever seen but it is is hyperbolic in terms of claiming that only Yoda is the greatest foe that darkness has ever seen.

Again, I'm sorry but I'm afraid this is not the case. It simply means that Yoda is more powerful than any Jedi or light-side user before him.

And there are indeed some other people who can defeat Yoda apart from DE Sidious and Luke.

Perhaps. But, again, that doesn't necessarily make them stronger than he is. Mace Windu defeated Darth Sidious, but he is not more powerful than him. In that context, you might have a point. But otherwise? You don't have much to work with.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm sorry, LeGenD, but that line doesn't matter, or factor into this at all. The quote -- directed by the omniscient narrator of a G-canon source -- states explicitly that Yoda is "the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known". What does this mean? It means that Yoda is simply more powerful than any light-sider or Jedi that came before him. Not that he is necessarily more powerful than any dark-sider or Sith Lord before him.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...just—didn't—have it."

Now look at the high-lighted parts of the above mentioned quote and also keep in mind that Sidious said this to Master Yoda before the fight began in ROTS: "Your arrogance blinds you Master Yoda."

From Yoda's POV, he was the best or possibly the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known and these thoughts made him arrogant.

But when he went against a very powerful Sith Lord, he realized the truth, which is that he did not had what it takes to defeat a very powerful dark sider.

Hence this narration has been taken out of proportion in debates.

Originally posted by Gideon
Again, I'm sorry but I'm afraid this is not the case. It simply means that Yoda is more powerful than any Jedi or light-side user before him.

Originally posted by Gideon
Perhaps. But, again, that doesn't necessarily make them stronger than he is. Mace Windu defeated Darth Sidious, but he is not more powerful than him. In that context, you might have a point. But otherwise? You don't have much to work with.