Originally posted by Lightsnake
The only detail here is I'm not sure if the quote is from Darsha Assant's POV....I'll give Shadowhunter a readthrough later
The one regarding his prowess with a blade? It's coming from the narration; although, Darsha herself does believe he is the best according to the PotJ Sourcebook, it's apparent that in the case with Shadow Hunter that the narrator is proclaiming him as such.
I have understood what you are trying to say, Advent! So I have decided to drop my points in this debate.
Originally posted by Advent
Assume what you will, I really don't care what you think. And I'll "remain civil" once someone exterminates all the noobs and idiots on this forum (which includes you).
And if I feel that someone is trying to insult me, I can give a very harsh response as well. Some people know this very well. But I am showing tolerance to you because you are a girl. I am even tolerant to men but everything has got some limits.
Originally posted by Advent
The rest is just ridiculous, because I will never see you outside of the intraweb, and if I do, I'll probably laugh at you.
And you won't get a chance to laugh at me, if you by any chance see me. Because only an idiot will laugh at a 6 foot tall and a well educated man. This is irrelevant however.
My advice: Learn to be Civil. It will be good for you in the future. Insulting people in a forum is easy but some people have less level of tolerance and they can insult back.
Originally posted by Advent
Then quit responding to my posts, you're clearly not winning or proving your point.
Thanks for your time though!
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
But that wasn't very insulting though. All you did was mention your height. wow...
I was just indicating that a person will not laugh at me on my looks because I do not look funny.
Anyways! Advent is a girl. I would like to be friendly and stay decent with any girl. I am just advising her to be more polite and decent in her debates.
She is very talented but she lacks tolerance and insults even when it is not really necessary. She would be a good person in real life but her attitude here shows something else.
Originally posted by Gideon
...Yeah, you ought to take lessons from AC or Advent on how to insult. None of that was funny or witty at all.
Originally posted by GideonFirst sentence pretty much sums her attitude up.
It's not that Advent lacks tolerance, it's that she doesn't feel that she has to show it to you.Edit: And for all you know, she is a good person in real life (which is my guess). But I'm biased, because we're in love. 😄
Pff, if she looks anything like the chick in her sig, you better be prepared to fight me to the death for her*Cue Star Trek battle music*. 😛
OK then, I never thought I was ever going to say this, but I agree with Darth Sexy. Advent, whoever you are, you have been making LESS sense then the ones you claim are poor debaters.
And, also, you claim that killing Anoon=Killing Malak. This is a misrepresentation, and the reasons why can be summed up in one word: Malaise. Look it up, and then Get back to me.
Looked it up? Good. Now we can continue. The Jedi order that Maul, Anakin, and other underlings of Palpatine faced were a HOLLOW SHELL of what the order used to be. Kreia herself noted that "It is conflict that strengthens us, and isolation that weakens us" and this can be shown to be prophetic through the rather sharp decline of the Order after the New Sith Wars.
The Order had grown, for all intents and purposes, lax. It's only conflicts were endless peacekeeping missions from the Uziel system (see Jedi Quest) to Naboo. In the laxness, they grew complacent and decadent. This led to such calamities spreading through the ranks such as the use of the Nimian, which can rightfully called very inefficient and even useless (see what happened in the Geonosis arena for proof.)
Thus, given the laxity, malaise, and loss of Jedi Lore, they declined in quality like hell. Thus, even the cream of the crop in the Pre-Trilogy era were far below the greats of old.
However, the KOTOR-era Jedi were not thus impaired.
When Revan crossed the Rubicon Asteroid Belt, to mutilate a saying, he did NOT face a stagnant, decadent Jedi Order like those in the PT era.
The Jedi of his era fought the Sith of Revan's Empire for three years running, before that , Revan's recruits had fought the Mandalorian invasion for sixteen years, fought, in close succession, Exar Kun and his Krath, the Onderonian royalist regime of King Ommin and Queen Amanoa, the Naddist Loyalists after the fall of the previous regime, and were engaged in a three-hundred year war with the rouge, genocidal breakaway dictatorship running the Kanz Sector.
So, in other words, the Jedi had, more or less, been fighting major external threats in scales, many of which would DWARF the Confederate Crisis/Clone War, and thus, these were not idle peacekeepers. These were warriors.
The wars, like what happen in real live, bled the Jedi Order a great deal, but, like in real life (see the Soviet Red Army rebounding against the Axis after horrifically bad defeats), those that survive are usually soldiers of the highest degree.
A Turk official said that, after the battle of Lepanto that smashed Ottoman naval superiority for years "In seizing Cyprus, we relieved you (referring to the Christian nations of Southern Europe, and the Republic of Venice in particular) of an arm. In destroying our fleet, you shaved our beard. A missing arm does not grow back, but a shaved beard grows all the better for the blade."
And THAT is exactly what happened with the KOTOR Jedi. The conflicts had hardened them, and formed them into a highly-efficient fighting force. This can be attested to the fact that several of the most-powerful force-users in history came out of this era of strife, as well as several notables. Nomi Sunrider, Bastila, Zez-Kai-Ell, Vandar, Kavar, Vrook, Atris, Jolee, Malak, Revan, Exar, Ullic, Juhani, and Revan all came out of this era.
So, when Revan began his attempt to march on Coruscant, he faced not only a honed and refined Jedi Order, but also a well-equipped, trained, and experienced conventional Republican military as well.
Maul and the era of his fellows lived in an era of a decadent Jedi Order and a time when the Republic had no professional military whatsoever save for what could be organized ad hoc (for instance, the Republic was almost toppled by a alliance of pirates and bacta-producing corporations in the Stark Hyperspace War, and had to rely on the Trade Federation and Ranulph Tarkin's private militia to stave off collapse.)
In addition, as I mentioned above, much lore from both Sith and Jedi have been lost in the centuries between the KOTOR era and the PT era, something that could only decrease efficiency. Revan would have access to knowledge that had either long passed into the realm of myth or vanished altogether (and, from the profile given by people who knew of him, if Revan had access to the knowledge, he would have looked it over.)
Also, Revan has an advantage that is completely alien to Maul. Revan was not only a distinguished Jedi and Sith, but was also a tactical and strategic genius. Whereas Maul was used to merely following Sids’ orders efficiently but without too much genius, Revan commanded two major armies in the era. His rebellion against the council and appointment as the commander of the bruised, bloodied, battered, and broken Republican forces is what first stemmed and then drove back the Mandalorian deluge that was burning the Republic's outskirts and slowly slinking towards the heartland.
He also was intelligent enough during those years on campaign against the Mandalorians to start building the foundations for his campaign against the Republic, turning soldiers, Jedi, and officers to become utterly loyal to him, and thus willing to follow him on the warpath against the Republic (while conveniently disposing of those with questionable loyalty or loyalty to the Republic.)
His strategic genius in his wars is evident in how his fellow commanders viewed him. Canderous noted that "His strategies and tactics defeated the best of us. Even Mandalore himself was taken aback by the ferocity of his attacks, the tenacity of his defenses, and the subtlty of his plans."
And just for clarification, these men were the victors of Onderon, the First battle of Althir (where Canderous wiped out a force greatly superior to his own in a most efficient plan), the Campaigns against the Zabrak colonial holding, and others. These men were battle hardened and highly-trained soldiers. Mandalore the Ultimate was the mastermind behind the effective campaigns against the rim worlds, and was highly effective at what he did, if also extremely ruthless.
When he began to march against the Republic, he inflicted extraordinarily through and decisive victories against his former allies, but at the same time managed to do so by only destroying the Republican military and not the underlying infrastructure of the Republic to aid in the future fight against the shadowy enemy from the unknown regions, probably the 'True Sith.' It was Malak who adopted the scorched-earth tactics that included such notable examples as Taris and others.
So, you might say, who cares? What would this do, allow him to order the shadows on the wall against Maul? This would be understandable, as the obvious benefits of good battlefield leadership are not obvious in a mano-on-man duel. However, that does not mean there are none.
Revan, as such a skilled commander, will be more likely to take advantage of opportunities that may present themselves then Maul, as that is what he would have to do in the commander's chair. In addition, it is likely that he is more skilled at taking the initiative and keeping it then Maul is. In addition, he will plan ahead, irritating Maul to attempt to force him to loose his cool (something that is indeed encouraged in most Sith, to draw on the anger for power,) and thus unbalancing his foe while he is likely to remain firmly in control of the situation.
As for combat using conventional weapons, his list of victories speak for themselves, including such notables as:
*Yusanis, the Legendary Echani general and soldier
*Calo Nord, an infamous and efficient bounty hunter who learned his trade by toying with and killing off the bounty hunters trailing him during his earlier years
*Darth Malak, the DLOTS and more-than-capable duelist who was, after all, capable of maintaining his authority in a order of hundreds of thousands of Dark Jedi
*Bendak Starkiller, the Tarisian dueling king who fought only in death matches and had never been beaten, until he went up against an amnesiac Revan who had not regained use of the force
*Mandalore the Ultimate, the Mandalorian commander in the invasion of the Republic, and obviously quite experienced and skilled. The fight was so one-sided it was described as an 'execution' by eyewitnesses.
*Darth Bandon, the star pupil of Malak, and obviously skilled in the Dark Side
*Bastilla Shan, one of the gifted Jedi who was captured and tortured into the Dark Side, and was extremely powerful in the force
*The defenders of the Star Forge, comprising of the best Malak's empire could field, further strengthened by the Star Forge, and having an overwhelming superiority in numbers and equipment,
The list could go longer, but I think you can get my point.
Has Maul done anything comparing to even one of these events?
In addition, he was shown to be quite adept in the Force, shown both in his career as a Jedi and Sith, and was described by Kreia (who was no light judge of force abilities by any stretch) as "like looking at the heart of the Force." While this may be an overstatement (and indeed, probably is), his victories over other force users show that he was a very good force user.
Is there any indication Maul could be considered a great force user?
For these reasons, I believe that Revan would outmaneuver, out-think, and outfight Maul with relative ease.
Any rebuttals? I await a response.