Revan vs. Maul

The complete sentence is like this: "Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...just—didn't—have it."

Now look at the high-lighted parts of the above mentioned quote and also keep in mind that Sidious said this to Master Yoda before the fight began in ROTS: "Your arrogance blinds you Master Yoda."

From Yoda's POV, he was the best or possibly the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known and these thoughts made him arrogant.

But when he went against a very powerful Sith Lord, he realized the truth, which is that he did not had what it takes to defeat a very powerful dark sider.

Hence this narration has been taken out of proportion in debates.

That's a very interesting viewpoint I hadn't seen before.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

[b]Darth Traya:

She knows a very powerful draining technique that can be lethal to most Jedi. She pwned 3 powerful Jedi Masters with a flick of her hand in a matter of few seconds with that technique.[/B]

And again yoda is a powerful force user, Its highly unlikely kreias force drain will kill him quickly as he can resist it or defend against it with a force shield.

Kreia has her strong attacks. Yoda has his massive TK

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

This guy knows a Force Killer technique that can kill an entire planet. I don't think that Yoda can defend against this kind of technique either.

And legend. Im not argueing yoda > those 3 you mentioned.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Powerful jedi masters in what sense? They have yet to do anything impressive or anything which makes them even look powerful.

Those 3 Jedi Masters were not weaklings either.

I don't know much about Zez-Kai Ell but Vrook and Kavar were indeed powerful.

-> Vrook was tough in his own right, when you engage him as Exile.

-> And Kavar was the battle-master of the Jedi Order of that age. He was highly skilled in the art of saber combat and mastered many Light Saber Forms. Even the Mandalorians respected this man and thought that he would actually lead Jedi warriors against them in the war. He also was very experienced and smart as Zez-Kai Ell pointed out.

Originally posted by Manslayer
If i recall kavar lost to malak easily.

When Malak attacked his opponents, he did so with brutal efficiency and made sure that his victims were dead in the end. And to be honest, I am surprised to see that how Kavar managed to escape from Malak.

Only Revan managed to defeat Malak in combat.

Originally posted by Manslayer
And again yoda is a powerful force user, Its highly unlikely kreias force drain will kill him quickly as he can resist it or defend against it with a force shield.

Kreia has her strong attacks. Yoda has his massive TK

But you need to remember that Traya's instahit Drain reaches its victims within blink of an eye. Now that is one fast killing move.

And if blocking Traya's drain would be so easy then those Jedi Masters could have done so.

Now Yoda indeed have demonstrated impressive defensive abilities against some Force moves but I do not know for sure that how well he will do so against Traya's Drain.

But I think that he will not die so easily as those 3 Jedi Masters due to him being very strong in the Force and will possibly put up a much better resistance. But will he be able to survive that attack or repeated hits from that attack and for how long can be questioned.

Still it is highly possible for Traya to defeat Yoda through this technique.

Though Traya vs Yoda match will be one hell of a fight to watch.

Originally posted by Manslayer
And its safe to assume yoda knows the fallanasi technique as he has been studying the force for 800 years, its highly likely he met the fallanasi during that 800 year period. Didnt tholme have the fallanasi technique?

If Yoda have met Fallanasi, then it is good guess that he might have learned the Fallanasi technique but do remember that Fallansi technique is actually an advanced form of Force Cloak and it does not makes you like a Wound in the Force. But if it is not what I think then you can enlighten me more in this regard.

Now a Force Cloak technique will be useful when ambushing Nihilus but he also had good defensive abilities. I remember that very few Force moves worked on Nihilus and it took 3 warriors to bring him down and that too in his weakened state.

And once Nihilus sees his opponent then that means serious trouble for the opponent.

The only known good form of defense against the Nihilus’s Force Killer technique is by being a “Wound in the Force.”

Originally posted by Manslayer
And legend. Im not argueing yoda > those 3 you mentioned.

It is good to see that you have used a much broad minded approach here. I like it.

@ Janus

Thanks!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Those 3 Jedi Masters were not weaklings either.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I don't know much about Zez-Kai Ell but Vrook and Kavar were indeed powerful.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

-> Vrook was tough in his own right, when you engage him as Exile.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

-> And Kavar was the battle-master of the Jedi Order of that age. He was highly skilled in the art of saber combat and mastered many Light Saber Forms. Even the Mandalorians respected this man and thought that he would actually lead Jedi warriors against them in the war. He also was very experienced and smart as Zez-Kai Ell pointed out.

If i recall correctly i believed he lost to malak in a saber duel.

Tell me. what has kavar done which is impressive in the force which is even half of what anakin/vader and dooku can do?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Darth Malak was a very powerful, highly experienced and skilled warrior. He was said to have wielded devastating dark side power and knew many offensive Force techniques.

When Malak attacked his opponents, he did so with brutal efficiency and made sure that his victims were dead in the end. And to be honest, I am surprised to see that how Kavar managed to escape from Malak.

Only Revan managed to defeat Malak in combat.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Yoda is a very powerful Force User and so is Darth Traya.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

But you need to remember that Traya's instahit Drain reaches its victims within blink of an eye. Now that is one fast killing move.

Telekinetic based attacks are even faster seeing that they are instant

Again, kreias drain is NOT an instakill as it doesnt kill the opponent the moment of impact. Observe the video carefully, if it was instant kill attack why would the drain have to be etched to their bodies for a few mere seconds?

Insta kill = death the moment you get hit with a paticular attack.

Examples: Spear of midnight black when you hit the vital points( head, heart) Super high intensity force lightning by sidious. Emerald lightning

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And if blocking Traya's drain would be so easy then those Jedi Masters could have done so.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Now Yoda indeed have demonstrated impressive defensive abilities against some Force moves but I do not know for sure that how well he will do so against Traya's Drain.

Being powerful in the force would of course have a higher resistance to several attacks. I DOUBT trayas drain would even get to yoda before he strikes. Whats there to say she will use it the moment the duel starts?

She used it on the 3 masters probably because they wanted to engage her in a saber duel, 3 on 1 which the odds show that traya has a high chance of losing hence why she initiated the attack of force drain.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

But I think that he will not die so easily as those 3 Jedi Masters due to him being very strong in the Force and will possibly put up a much better resistance. But will he be able to survive that attack or repeated hits from that attack and for how long can be questioned.

Again TK's speed > that of lightning and force drain i believe. Notice it takes a split second for the attack to hit its opponent the moment the user executes it?

Observe malaks or vaders grip and you will notice the enemy is effected the moment they execute the attack.

This applys to telekenesis as well

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Still it is highly possible for Traya to defeat Yoda through this technique.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Though Traya vs Yoda match will be one hell of a fight to watch.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Tholme knew the art of Force Cloak. But what Tholme had mastered is not necessarily what others in the Jedi Order would have done as well.

Doesnt make sense does it

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

If Yoda have met Fallanasi, then it is good guess that he might have learned the Fallanasi technique but do remember that Fallansi technique is actually an advanced form of Force Cloak and it does not makes you like a Wound in the Force. But if it is not what I think then you can enlighten me more in this regard.

And its highly possible that yoda met the fallanasi seeing tholme has that technique and he(yoda) has been studying the force for 800 years

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Now a Force Cloak technique will be useful when ambushing Nihilus but he also had good defensive abilities. I remember that very few Force moves worked on Nihilus and it took 3 warriors to bring him down and that too in his weakened state.

And how do you know "very few force moves" worked on him? Where did you get that? Or are you speculating?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And once Nihilus sees his opponent then that means serious trouble for the opponent.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

The only known good form of defense against the Nihilus’s Force Killer technique is by being a “Wound in the Force.”

So no, wound in the force is not the only defence

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

It is good to see that you have used a much broad minded approach here. I like it.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Did i say they were weaklings? I merely pointed out that they have yet to do anything impressive

Originally posted by Manslayer
Elaborate

Originally posted by Manslayer
Gameplay mechanic. For all we know 1) The exile could have a hard time fighting him or 2) Exile could have killed him with little difficulty

For example: It was hard to defeat Twitch in the Taris Dueling Chamber but it was very easy to defeat Dead Eye Ducan in that same Chamber.

So by logic, Twitch was much tougher then Dead Eye Duncan.

Thus Vrook seems to be tough when you fight him and that means that he was good.

Originally posted by Manslayer
And how does being a great lightsaber dueler automatically make you very powerful in the force? Being a great lightsaber duelist will not shield you against TK based attacks and some other attacks like a force drain.

Additionally he had good expertise in the art of Force Forms , which can help a Jedi a lot when fighting only through Force.

Darth Traya once said this about Force Forms: "...preferred of the Jedi Consulars, and effective in combats where you must fight only through the Force."

This shows that Jedi Consulars prefer practicing Force Forms because they rely more on the Force in combat. But Kavar even as a Jedi Guardian, still practiced this art.

Originally posted by Manslayer
If i recall correctly i believed he lost to malak in a saber duel.

If Kavar lost to Malak in a saber duel, then it shows that how good Malak was.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Tell me. what has kavar done which is impressive in the force which is even half of what anakin/vader and dooku can do?

Originally posted by Manslayer
So? Does this have any relevance to our debate?

Originally posted by Manslayer
No body is denying that

Originally posted by Manslayer
It actually takes a split second to reach its opponents. Force lightning is just as fast.

Telekinetic based attacks are even faster seeing that they are instant

Originally posted by Manslayer
Again, kreias drain is NOT an instakill as it doesnt kill the opponent the moment of impact. Observe the video carefully, if it was instant kill attack why would the drain have to be etched to their bodies for a few mere seconds?

Insta kill = death the moment you get hit with a paticular attack.

Examples: Spear of midnight black when you hit the vital points( head, heart) Super high intensity force lightning by sidious. Emerald lightning

But still this does not matter. We have seen that what her Drain can do.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Oh? Did they even know the force shield technique?

They surely would have knowledge of some defensive abilities.

Originally posted by Manslayer
And i dont know how well traya will do against yodas TK.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Being powerful in the force would of course have a higher resistance to several attacks.

Though the best form of defense is to attack first and ask questions later.

Originally posted by Manslayer
I DOUBT trayas drain would even get to yoda before he strikes. Whats there to say she will use it the moment the duel starts?

Check this video: Click!

She would prefer to use dangerous techniques against very powerful opponents or in case of tough challenges. It is a matter of making a wise decision.

When she faced those 3 Jedi Masters, she knew that it would be hard to defeat them with conventional means, so she resorted to using a deadly technique to turn the tide of the battle.

Originally posted by Manslayer
She used it on the 3 masters probably because they wanted to engage her in a saber duel, 3 on 1 which the odds show that traya has a high chance of losing hence why she initiated the attack of force drain.

Originally posted by Manslayer
What could work on yoda once wouldnt work on him twice seeing that he is a smart fighter especially when he knows who he is up against.

To say that a Technique A is used on Yoda and it works on him and then he can block the same Technique A in a second strike, if he manages to survive the first one is a fallacy.

However I agree that Yoda is indeed smart but he has tendencies to be arrogant as well.

What Yoda needs to do is to force a Saber duel with Darth Traya as quickly as possible and then the things will be in his favor.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Again TK's speed > that of lightning and force drain i believe. Notice it takes a split second for the attack to hit its opponent the moment the user executes it?

Originally posted by Manslayer
Observe malaks or vaders grip and you will notice the enemy is effected the moment they execute the attack.

Originally posted by Manslayer
This applys to telekenesis as well
Its debatable but as far as im concerned. Yoda > traya

Traya is good in her own right and so is Yoda. In case of fight between these two, both are powerful enough to defeat each other but this can be dependent on circumstances in which they meet.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Well sure but notice if traya somehow manages to injure yoda at the least, the kotor fanboys(not you) will ramble kreia > sidious due to A>B>C

Originally posted by Manslayer
Um yes it would, how would a master who served the jedi council for maybe a few decades know a technique which a master who has studied the force for over 800 years does not?

Doesnt make sense does it

Originally posted by Manslayer
Sure i can. Firstly who said the fallanasi technique is advanced form of force cloak? Where did you get that? Wookiepedia?

I once asked this question and no one came up with a satisfactory answer.

Originally posted by Manslayer
And its highly possible that yoda met the fallanasi seeing tholme has that technique and he(yoda) has been studying the force for 800 years

Originally posted by Manslayer
Dont forget nihilus technique strips you off the force, if you use the fallanasi technique. His killer technique is useless

Originally posted by Manslayer
And how do you know "very few force moves" worked on him? Where did you get that? Or are you speculating?

Check this video: Click!

Notice the word “immune” that pops out several times, as the player attempts to use the Force on the Sith Lord? It is due to his good defensive abilities.

Originally posted by Manslayer
And as opponent with the fallanasi technique will land nihilus in a pile of shit.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Care to prove that? The fallanasi technique removes you from the force, And nihilus technique severs your connection to the force which will cause you to die unlike a normal force sever.

Originally posted by Manslayer
So no, wound in the force is not the only defence

Originally posted by Manslayer
Im trying not to insult. You at the least can come up with ideas for a debate and attempt to make sense in what your saying. I appreciate that honestly, Kamhal on the other hand is ugh best not i bring it up.

The complete sentence is like this: "Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...just—didn't—have it."

Now look at the high-lighted parts of the above mentioned quote and also keep in mind that Sidious said this to Master Yoda before the fight began in ROTS: "Your arrogance blinds you Master Yoda."

From Yoda's POV, he was the best or possibly the most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known and these thoughts made him arrogant.

I am more than aware of the entire passage, LeGenD, but thank you for taking the time to post it here. The statement in question was given by the omniscient narrator about Yoda's own realization. That he was unable to defeat Darth Sidious does not contradict the quote itself, and that is the point you have been trying to make.

But when he went against a very powerful Sith Lord, he realized the truth, which is that he did not had what it takes to defeat a very powerful dark sider.

This is uncompromisingly false. Yoda has more than enough power to defeat "a very powerful dark sider", just not Sidious. Moreover, it isn't that he couldn't have beaten Sidious -- they battled on equal terms -- it's just that he didn't. Yoda was destined to retreat, Sidious was destined to ascend. But the Dark Lord did not overpower the Jedi Master himself.

Hence this narration has been taken out of proportion in debates.

No, the only thing "out of proportion" is your elaboration.

This is an assumption. He may be the best before Luke but we do not know for sure.

No, it is not an assumption. He was the best before Luke, as directed by the omniscient narrator of a G-canon source.

Well my original point is that some others can also defeat Yoda apart from DE Sidious and Luke. So this case should be settled then.

Indeed. The point is that that group is very small, and it is possible that people like Revan and Nihilus could overcome Yoda. But they aren't "more powerful" than he is.

In Inferno, Jacen severs Ben from the Force-and reconnects him later- pretty easily.

Originally posted by Gideon
Indeed. The point is that that group is very small, and it is possible that people like Revan and Nihilus could overcome Yoda. But they aren't "more powerful" than he is.

I agree that very small number of people can ovecome Yoda.

And Revan and Nihilus might not be more powerful then Yoda but they are indeed very dangerous foes for him because of an obvious reason stated before.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
OK! Since you agree that they were not weaklings, we can then safely assume that they were at-least good if not among the best. But considering kavar’s reputation specially, it showed that at-least he was indeed among the best.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

This is not a matter of game-play mechanics. If an opponent is tougher to defeat in combat, then it means that that opponent was intended and portrayed to be a tough or a good fighter.

GAMEPLAY MECHANICS ARE NOT CANON

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

For example: It was hard to defeat Twitch in the Taris Dueling Chamber but it was very easy to defeat Dead Eye Ducan in that same Chamber.

So by logic, Twitch was much tougher then Dead Eye Duncan.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Thus Vrook seems to be tough when you fight him and that means that he was good.

Quit trying to use what you saw in gameplay and use it as fact

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Kavar was also not a bad Force User. He was capable of Force stunning multiple opponents simultaneously.

And he did it against non-force users

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Additionally he had good expertise in the art of [b] Force Forms , which can help a Jedi a lot when fighting only through Force.[/B]

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Darth Traya once said this about Force Forms: "...preferred of the Jedi Consulars, and effective in combats where you must fight only through the Force."

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

This shows that Jedi Consulars prefer practicing Force Forms because they rely more on the Force in combat. But Kavar even as a Jedi Guardian, still practiced this art.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

That is not surprising. Malak was among the best duelists of his order and very few rivaled him in Saber dueling abilities.

If Kavar lost to Malak in a saber duel, then it shows that how good Malak was.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Having proficiency in the art of Force Stunning and Force Forms is not something that every Jedi have possessed.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

That information was meant to show that since Kavar lost to Malak, it was not a sign of him being not a good fighter.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Remember that Traya’s attack reached those Jedi Masters in less then 1 second. Now how this move is not considerably fast is beyond me. It is almost like being instant.

So yodas TK would hit trayas drain before him

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Take a clear look at my post. I used the word [b]Instahit and not Instakill.[/B]

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

But still this does not matter. We have seen that what her Drain can do.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

They were Jedi Masters! Mate!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

[QUOTE=9449203]Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
[B]
She will definitely not be killed by pure TK attacks. She herself has good TK abilities.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Though the best form of defense is to attack first and ask questions later.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

This is wishful thinking. Just look at how fast her Drain hits those 3 Jedi Masters.

You CANT prove it instantly hitting the opponent the moment she or anyone executes that attack

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Check this video: Click!

It isnt an insta hit

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

She would prefer to use dangerous techniques against very powerful opponents or in case of tough challenges. It is a matter of making a wise decision.

And vrook? Your trying to use gameplay mechanics to make him look strong because guess what, i had a harder time with him than sion and traya so that mean he > sion and traya?

And zez kai ell. Who oo pee ****ing dooo. We have only seen him for the first time.

So why did she use that attack? Possibly because they wanted to engage her in a SABER DUEL WHICH SHE WOULD HAVE LOST.

Not because any one of them is powerful in the force

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And this shows that in case of tough challenges, she would resort to using deadly techniques.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

To say that a Technique A is used on Yoda and it works on him and then he can block the same Technique A in a second strike, if he manages to survive the first one is a fallacy.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

However I agree that Yoda is indeed smart but he has tendencies to be arrogant as well.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

What Yoda needs to do is to force a Saber duel with Darth Traya as quickly as possible and then the things will be in his favor.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

As you can see from the above video, Traya’s Drain also instantly hits its target.

INSTANT is INSTANT, Quick is quick. Understand?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I agree but Traya’s Drain also hits its target nearly as fast unfortunately.

Watch TESB and you will realise this

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Traya is good in her own right and so is Yoda. In case of fight between these two, both are powerful enough to defeat each other but this can be dependent on circumstances in which they meet.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

He might have known it but this is an assumption. If he has demonstrated this ability once, then your case would be strong.

Tholme has it so why wouldnt yoda?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Check this thread: Click!

I once asked this question and no one came up with a satisfactory answer.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

“Possibly met” is not a very strong indication of an action that took really place. I however agree that he would have considerable knowledge of the Force, since he had been studying it for a long time.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Nihilus also knows regular Force Drain, he can use that to weaken his opponents, if his killer move does not works. He also has very good TK abilities.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

No! I am not speculating.

Check this video: Click!

Notice the word “immune” that pops out several times, as the player attempts to use the Force on the Sith Lord? It is due to his good defensive abilities.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
How exactly? Nihilus is not a weakling either. He has good defensive abilities and is also a very powerful Force User. The fallanasi technique will help in case of ambush but not in a pure 1 on 1 fight.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

This is the problem! Where it is said that the Fallanasi technique removes you from the Force?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

So far the only known defensive ability that has proven to be effective against Nihilus’s Force Killer attack is being “Wound in the Force.”

Originally posted by Manslayer

Um yes it would, how would a master who served the jedi council for maybe a few decades know a technique which a master who has studied the force for over 800 years does not?

In the same way that Mace can use Vaapad and Yoda could not. Point us to a source that say that Yoda actually used this Fallanasi technique, or if he atleast knew of it. Until then your just speculating.

Just because he's the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order and lived for over 800 years does not mean he can use every single technique that every single master has. For your information, as wise and as old as Yoda is he's not All-Powerful and All-Knowing.

Originally posted by -Blasmaster-
In the same way that Mace can use Vaapad and Yoda could not. Point us to a source that say that Yoda actually used this Fallanasi technique, or if he atleast knew of it. Until then your just speculating.

Its logical to assume it but no logic to assume yoda has it?

Originally posted by -Blasmaster-

Just because he's the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order and lived for over 800 years does not mean he can use every single technique that every single master has.

Originally posted by -Blasmaster-

For your information, as wise and as old as Yoda is he's not All-Powerful and All-Knowing.

The burden of proof is on you to prove that Yoda knows the Fallanassi technique. Considering you've been here for the better part of two years I'd expect you to know that by now. One never has to prove a negative. You brought up the point, you need to back it up with solid evidence or a logical, sensible deduction.

The problems with your reasoning are that it has no support at all, and that aside it just doesn't make any sense. First, I don't believe you've even proven that Tholme knows the specific technique in question. Cloaking oneself in the Force is decidedly not the same as looping out of it completely - Dooku and Ventress were proficient in the former, called Quey'Tek (Cestus Deception/Labyrinth of Evil) - and that is what you might have mistaken for the Fallanassi ability. Second, just because Tholme or any other random Jedi may know or be able to do something unusual doesn't mean Yoda can, too. His status as one of the mightiest Jedi of all time stems from a unique mixture of tremendous raw power, centuries of experience, and the accumulation of a great deal of knowledge. However, that doesn't mean he's the best in all or any of those categories. Anakin and Kar Vastor have greater or equal potential, and there is at least one Jedi Master who - according to Obi-Wan - is far older; multiple millenia, I believe, and therefore more experienced. Yoda most definitely knows more overall than any living Jedi, but he's not omniscient, and there are going to be others in the Order who can do things that he can't.

Scratch the two years thing; had you mixed up with someone else.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Again why wouldnt he know the technique since tholme knows it?

Its logical to assume it but no logic to assume yoda has it?

Yes, because of the simple fact that he has yet to show or even hint that he can use it. The logical thing to do is to NOT assume at all until the person in question has demonstrated or atleast been hinted at knowing the technique.

You make it seem like Yoda is a God or something. Able to do every single thing every Jedi can do. That's false. As was already proven by the fact that he cant use Mace's Vaapad and Shatterpoint abilities.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Can you prove that?

No, I dont have to prove anything. Im not assuming, Im simply going by whats been shown to us. You, on the otherhand, are bring up a point that is not shown on any SW source. So your the one who should do the proving here.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Oh but he is powerful, being the most powerful jedi until lukes time so i doubt he wouldnt know the fallanasi technique

Did I ever say he wasn't powerful? I said hes not All-Powerful and All-knowing. Or do you want me to define what these 2 words mean? My point is, Yoda is not these omnipotent being who can do everything. He's not this omniscient being who knows everything. Even he has his own shortcomings. He might know more about a particular area than most people, but some people might also have more knowledge than him in other areas, as well. He's not perfect, yknow.

Originally posted by Manslayer
That still doesnt change the fact that he hasnt done anything impressive with the force

I can say that Anakin Skywalker also have not done anything impressive with the Force but does this means that he sucked in combat? No. He was still easily among the most powerful Jedi of his age.

Similar is the case of Kavar. He too was easily among the most exceptional Jedi of his age and his reputation proves this.

Now what Darth Traya used to defeat him was not your average offensive Force technique. It is one of the deadliest Sith techniques ever witnessed.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Uh it is, i could use a cheat to get revan to lv 20 with all his stats pumped to its max and them instantly pwn anybody in the taris ring with my bare hands.

GAMEPLAY MECHANICS ARE NOT CANON

You are using a stupid analogy to make your point. Who is telling you to cheat in the game?

I am talking about general strength of a character and you seem to take my case out of context.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Due to cutscenes yes but due to gameplay? No.

Defeating Twitch was much more difficult then to defeat Dead Eye Ducan. You cannot judge the power of a game based character without taking the character's performance in the game in to consideration. This is a matter of common sense.

Apart from this Twitch was the "Taris Dueling Champion" and this information alone makes my case valid.

Now it is not necessary that a cut-scene or a video will show the true extent of power of a character in a game.

Similarly Vrook was a Jedi Master, which means that he had some experience in his disposal regarding lots of things and when we fought against him, only then we found out that he was tough to beat. This is just a simple analogy and you are taking it out of proportion.

Try to understand the logic behind my points before out-rightly stating silly remarks.

Originally posted by Manslayer
And what could he have pulled off with the force?

How would I know that what he would pull off with the Force? And this is entirely irrelevant. If you think that I am only talking about Force Contest then your assumption is wrong.

IMPORTANT NOTE: My point is not what those 3 Jedi Masters were capable of with the Force. My point was that they were experienced and powerful Jedi Masters and yet they were very easily tooled and defeated by Darth Traya in a single fight and it shows that how powerful she was and hence she can be an exceptional match for people like Yoda.

You have misjudged my entire case and twisted it in to asking silly questions regarding those 3 Jedi Masters, which is a problem on your part and this is why debates go out of context. First try to read the entire post carefully and then give an appropriate reply or else do not debate.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Statements from the council said the exile was only an average jedi or above average due to her ability to quicly form bonds?

Now do you think that Kriea was stupid for spending so much time with Exile and training her, if she would have been just average?

Originally posted by Manslayer
Quit trying to use what you saw in gameplay and use it as fact

Originally posted by Manslayer
And? Alot of other force users can do that easily.

Originally posted by Manslayer
And he did it against non-force users

Originally posted by Manslayer
That doesnt dispute his strength in the force

Originally posted by Manslayer
So? Kavar tried to engage her in a saber duel anyway

Originally posted by Manslayer
Ironic that if they were so good with the force they still decided to engage traya purely in a lightsaber match

Originally posted by Manslayer
And this isnt about malak sadly

Originally posted by Manslayer
Neither does it dispute the user to be powerful

Originally posted by Manslayer
Uh no but the fight could have turned out better kavar used the force which he didnt mention him using

Originally posted by Manslayer
Again telekenetic attacks are even faster than force drain and force lightning because it is instant with no delay the moment the force user executes it.

So yodas TK would hit trayas drain before him

And Traya can perform Force Wave within blink of an eye, which is just like you expect from Yoda.

Originally posted by Manslayer
And iv refuted your insta=hit claim. If it takes more than a millionth of a second to reach your opponrnt, its not insta hit

Originally posted by Manslayer
yep, kill a few average jedi masters who have yet to impress us.

Originally posted by Manslayer
yet they have never used them, I doubt their precognition even aided them before kreia struck, And they were prepared for a saber-duel NOT a force fight

Originally posted by Manslayer
Oh but she can get killed once yoda gets a hold of her and slams her against every wall

Originally posted by Manslayer
Which is what yoda will do

Originally posted by Manslayer
Again it isnt an instant hit, It took less than one second thus it isnt instant hit. Accept that and move on with life legend.

It took less then one second and it still is not an insta-hit?

It was all over those people within blink of an eye! Dude!

Originally posted by Manslayer
You CANT prove it instantly hitting the opponent the moment she or anyone executes that attack

Originally posted by Manslayer
I was the one who showed you that video when you claimed it was insta kill so dont need to show it to me.

It isnt an insta hit

Originally posted by Manslayer
Uh powerful? What has kavar done do look powerful? Stunning a group of people and learning force forms does not make you a powerful force user.

Originally posted by Manslayer
And vrook? Your trying to use gameplay mechanics to make him look strong because guess what, i had a harder time with him than sion and traya so that mean he > sion and traya?

Originally posted by Manslayer
And zez kai ell. Who oo pee ****ing dooo. We have only seen him for the first time.

So why did she use that attack? Possibly because they wanted to engage her in a SABER DUEL WHICH SHE WOULD HAVE LOST.

Not because any one of them is powerful in the force

Originally posted by Manslayer
But would she use it the moment she meets yoda? No, why? Because she doesnt know how deadly yoda is yet and in most cases when 2 unknowns to each other meet, they engage in a saber duel which yoda will beat her

Originally posted by Manslayer
Because yoda will get a defence up in time

Originally posted by Manslayer
Not when he finds out how dangerous his opponent is

Originally posted by Manslayer
I have answered that.

Again it IS NOT AN INSTA HIT. IT TAKED A MERE SECOND OR LESS TO HIT ITS TARGET.

INSTANT is INSTANT, Quick is quick. Understand?

Originally posted by Manslayer
Um no. Malaks and vaders TK grips are instant meaning it hits the opponent the moment you execute it. It happens at the same time and does not fly in a strait line like lightning or drain.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Watch TESB and you will realise this

Originally posted by Manslayer
mmhmm

Originally posted by Manslayer
Luke and sidious never demonstrated this but yet they have this technique.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Tholme has it so why wouldnt yoda?

Nihilus knows Force Killer technique so why not others?

Originally posted by Manslayer
Because advent, darth sexy and lightsnake chose not to answer you.

Originally posted by Manslayer
Right and he would know what tholme knows

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
We should care less about what he have done with the Force or not because we have very limited information about his life. But judging from his reputation, he was at-least a capable fighter with good experience.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I can say that Anakin Skywalker also have not done anything impressive with the Force but does this means that he sucked in combat? No. He was still easily among the most powerful Jedi of his age.

Whats your point? Oh thats right. Bad metaphor

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Similar is the case of Kavar. He too was easily among the most exceptional Jedi of his age and his reputation proves this.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Now what Darth Traya used to defeat him was not your average offensive Force technique. It is one of the deadliest Sith techniques ever witnessed.

Its how you use your powers legend, any force power used to the max can be deadly and devastating, not just kreias drain

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Am I using d20 rules to explain my case? No.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

You are using a stupid analogy to make your point. Who is telling you to cheat in the game?

Again what happens in gameplay ISNT CANON

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I am talking about general strength of a character and you seem to take my case out of context.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Defeating Twitch was much more difficult then to defeat Dead Eye Ducan. You cannot judge the power of a game based character without taking the character's performance in the game in to consideration. This is a matter of common sense.

EVEN with trays deadly technique and nihilus force sever technique?
You DONT make any sense at all trying to judge a characters strength through the use of gameplay.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Apart from this Twitch was the "Taris Dueling Champion" and this information alone makes my case valid.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Now it is not necessary that a cut-scene or a video will show the true extent of power of a character in a game.

That make sense? No it doesnt, why? GAMEPLAY MECHANICS are not canon

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Similarly Vrook was a Jedi Master, which means that he had some experience in his disposal regarding lots of things and when we fought against him, only then we found out that he was tough to beat. This is just a simple analogy and you are taking it out of proportion.

And tough to beat? Again i had a harder time with vrook than sion so that mean vrook > sion?

Your case holds no water, i can simply level up my exile character to 30 and then face vrook where i will have little problems.

Again: gameplay mechanics are not canon or do you need me to elaborate?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Try to understand the logic behind my points before out-rightly stating silly remarks.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

How would I know that what he would pull off with the Force? And this is entirely irrelevant. If you think that I am only talking about Force Contest then your assumption is wrong.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

IMPORTANT NOTE: My point is not what those 3 Jedi Masters were capable of with the Force. My point was that they were experienced and powerful Jedi Masters and yet they were very easily tooled and defeated by Darth Traya in a single fight and it shows that how powerful she was and hence she can be an exceptional match for people like Yoda..

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

You have misjudged my entire case and twisted it in to asking silly questions regarding those 3 Jedi Masters,

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

which is a problem on your part and this is why debates go out of context. First try to read the entire post carefully and then give an appropriate reply or else do not debate.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

That was early on in the game and only one Jedi Master stated that.

Now do you think that Kriea was stupid for spending so much time with Exile and training her, if she would have been just average?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I am sorry. The only available evidence at hand regarding Vrook’s strength is his performance in the game.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

If there would be more information available regarding his combat capabilities, then I would use that information to back my case but unfortunately it is not the case in the matter of Vrook. So I am resorting to the lowest form of evidence available.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I am not sure that a lot of other people have shown proficiency in this art. Mostly some powerful characters in KOTOR have shown proficiency in this art. So your analogy is once again not correct.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And do you think that he cannot Force Stun a Force User?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

How would he know that what Darth Traya was capable off?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Again! How would they know that what Darth Traya was capable off?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Your brought the case of Malak first and not me. So why consider his case irrelevant now?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

He was a capable warrior and leader of the Jedi Guardian clan of his age. Whether you accept this or not is not my problem.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Having a Force Contest with Malak is not what a wise person would recommend.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

You seem to forget that Traya’s Drain is almost as quick as a TK based attack. Her drain only takes a fraction of a second to reach its target and that is quick enough to overwhelm an opponent early on.
.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

And Traya can perform Force Wave within blink of an eye, which is just like you expect from Yoda..

Continued...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

It is insta-hit.

Instant meaning there is no delay at all, when you execute an attack it hits your opponent the moment you execute the attack.

Force drain is NOT an instant attack, it takes a fraction of a second for it to reach its opponent, and any body with force speed can evade this attack.

Force lightning also is a very fast attack on the same speed as drain but is it and instant hit? No it isnt

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I just blinked my eye and her Drain was all over those 3 Jedi Masters. You need to get your eyes checked.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Maybe you have very high standards for judging people but I unlike you is not like that. I think with more open-mind.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

They never knew that what Traya was capable off.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Traya is not a ragdoll to be tossed around like bantha fodder. She can surprise many with her abilities.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

This is not the case in every situation.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
WOW! Just look at your comment!

It took less then one second and it still is not an insta-hit?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

It was all over those people within blink of an eye! Dude!

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Watch the video again and then talk to me.

I will elaborate again with a metaphor and hopefully you will understand it but i have my doubts.

Lets use revan as an example. He executes a grip on a soldier, his attack hits the soldier THE MOMENT HE EXECUTES THE POWER, thats instant, his attack doesnt fly in a strait line.

Kreias drain took half a second or a split second to hit her opponent thus it ISNT instant

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

It is an insta-hit actually.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

He may not be a powerful Force User but this still does not changes the fact that he was an exceptional fighter.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

No! But it is the only available piece of evidence that shows that he was tough.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

I have already dealt with this case before.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Even that is not enough. You have to prove to me that Force Shield can completely cancel the effects of a very powerful Drain attack.

Force shield blocks force based attacks and we have seen yoda using a smaller variant of it to block sidious force lightning.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

He won’t be able to find out magically about the abilities of his opponent. He will have to experience some noticeable beating first.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

It is like instant and hence the word “insta” is used to refer to her Drain. Watch the video more carefully before jumping to conclusion.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Those TK grips might be slightly faster but this does not matters much. Traya’s Drain is quick enough to overwhelm an opponent.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Force Cloak is not going to help against Nihilus in a 1 on 1 fight in which he would see his opponent.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Nihilus knows Force Killer technique so why not others?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Not necessarily.

Originally posted by -Blasmaster-
Yes, because of the simple fact that he has yet to show or even hint that he can use it. The logical thing to do is to NOT assume at all until the person in question has demonstrated or atleast been hinted at knowing the technique.

You make it seem like Yoda is a God or something. Able to do every single thing every Jedi can do. That's false. As was already proven by the fact that he cant use Mace's Vaapad and Shatterpoint abilities.

No, I dont have to prove anything. Im not assuming, Im simply going by whats been shown to us. You, on the otherhand, are bring up a point that is not shown on any SW source. So your the one who should do the proving here.

Did I ever say he wasn't powerful? I said hes not [b]All-Powerful and All-knowing. Or do you want me to define what these 2 words mean? My point is, Yoda is not these omnipotent being who can do everything. He's not this omniscient being who knows everything. Even he has his own shortcomings. He might know more about a particular area than most people, but some people might also have more knowledge than him in other areas, as well. He's not perfect, yknow. [/B]

All right, i was speculating without backing it up. I concede this point