Re: What Will Go Through Your Mind When You See Jesus?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
[COLOR=darkblue]My point is that Jesus made all of this for [b]your
benefit and enjoyment (Jesus doesn’t need a city). The only thing Jesus is waiting on is you.
For what? Does he need us to clean the golden toliets?
Originally posted by Burning thought
simple stuff JIA, i can answer all of these"If this earth is a product of chance Burning thought then is you brain also a product of chance? Then that presupposes that your thoughts are also a product of chance. Question: why do things "need" to live? Isn't this the premise of natural selection, that the most fit organism beats out the less fit organism and then passes on its superior genes to its posterity? So why do organisms need to survive in the first place (explain this one)? "
my Brain as is every humans not truly a product of chance, not if you look deep into our genetic intake from out parents, but yes, the Earth and everything is a product of chance, there is no reason why it couldnt be, a combination of forces bringing together things, gravity, there was an easy chance that the solarsystem would never have been created where it is now if the nebula was not large enough by the time it got here and so it ended up somewhere diffrent in space, there is a chance we wouldnt excist because the star that exploded to create such nebula never exploded at all, and another space anomoly such as a black hole simply swallowed it, all chances, its not difficult, just like the chance that a coin will land heads up is of an equel chance that it will land tails up. Our brain and thoughts are not products of chance, they are products of our own genetics, our brains content to an extent could be a prodcut of chance depending on our personalities that we usually get while growing up and learning from diffrent people who we are.
your answer to "why things need to live".....basically..they dont, we (on average ignoring suicides and the like) [B]want
to live, our brains tell us that we want to live, our senses as animals, determination, life doesnt have to excist, if a nuclear war happened and all life on Earth was destroyed, if (how i believe it) no God excists and there is nothing after death then nothing happens, were gone....the universe will keep expanding, our sun will eventually power down and die etc etc.next question
What is the reason why an organism has this need? Furthermore, if there is no God then there is no right or wrong because there are no absolutes right? So then how do you explain conscience? How do you explain why every single human being on the planet has a conscience if there is no God and no right and wrong (good luck explaining this one)?this is simple JIA, the Organism has this need because its an organism, its brain tells it to stay alive, eat...reproduce and then if its old or weak die, simple life cycle, then it starts again. Right and wrong is not determined by God or Satan, it is determined by humans, thousands of years ago if a cave man murdered and raped anothers wife and stole its possessions he would feel guilty because he knew that person, knows that although they have diffrences that he is actually of the same race, not to menstion attachment humans can have to things, people, the victim of this autrocity would have Anger, and concience will probably go out the window until he murders his enemy for this act, this is no divine gift, this is work of the brain, thoughts. In modern life right and wrong is still determined by Humans, only more specificially with laws to keep us in line, if someone commits a crime against the law they feel frightened by the prospect of prison or other punishments more than guilt id wager, but if they murder they certainly feel guilt in most cases, ofcourse theres always those who feel good about murder of an enemy, but as with the cavemen, as simple as they were compared to humans today its still all around the brains reactions and how the individual depending on their bring up, someone always seeing violence from their parents is more likely to be violent and be less concious of their actions and so do not care so much.
"Who says that murder is wrong? Who says that stealing is wrong if there are no absolutes? I thought the only law that mattered was the law of survival of the fittest? So then If I am more fit than you to survive then shouldn't I be able to take whatever you own by any means necessary "
you wouldnt if you knew that it wasnt really going to be worth your time would you, i mean you as a person, your brain is influenced by your belief so you wouldnt steal anyway, your own religion and that of the church is one of those useful things that helps keep people from doing wicked acts, it makes them feel that if they do, they go to hell or if they do right, they go to heaven..ofcourse i feel this is all it is, like another law passed on by humans, only created more inteligently to make it not look like a law, but it still has a similiar impact. People dont want terrorism and violence, it costs money, it costs time to repair criminal act, people who steal takes time and money to find the culprit, simply to keep order, not because Gods divine conciousness hes blessed us with tells us to do so.
"If there are no absolutes then why is crime wrong "
A good answer for this is all of the above, because humans say its wrong, if everyone is against you your unlikely to succeed in the crime, and its also a matter of prespective, for example Robin hood steals from the rich and gives to the poor, the crime of stealing is wrong, but hes helping the poor by doing it, so wheres the crime really? keeping the poor weak and possibly dieing because they cant afford anything, or stealing to help them? its all human moral decisions that humans themselves figuire out, not god. [/B]
Burning thought you have failed to answer my questions with any plausibility or credibility. Yes, you responded but you didn't answer (i.e. expound with cogent facts, reasoning, an good logic). Your logic is pseudo/spurious logic because it has an appearance of logic but it fails to deliver.
1) How is your brain not a product of random, chance occurrence when the very premise of the theory of evolution is predicated on chance?
2. The genes that you inherited from your parents are irrelevant and immaterial (what do genes have to do with random, chance occurrence?). You mention you parents as if it is somehow pertinent or explanatory but your parents are a product of random, chance occurrence just like you because the theory of evolution postulates that the entire universe and everything in it is a product of chance
3. What is the probability that the earth is a product of chance Burning thought, better yet what is the probability that life evolved on earth. Let’s see:
"One of the convincing arguments that Earth was created by God and is not a product of blind chance is the number of properties of our planet, the Sun, the Solar System, and the galaxy in which we live that have to be precisely what they are for any kind of life (not ours necessarily) to exist. The galaxy has to be the right type of galaxy, we have to have the right position in the galaxy, our Sun has to be the right type of star and at the right age in its life process, we have to have the right size, mass, tilt, magnetic field, distribution of land masses, chemical makeup, atmosphere, distance to the Sun, etc. Now we have learned that the size, distribution, and orbital shape of the planets within the solar system are also critical to the creation and survival of life. Every time new variables are discovered that have to be precisely controlled for life of any kind to exist, the probability that these variables could be a product of chance formation becomes that much less.
To calculate the probability of an event like this, you multiply the probability of each of the dependent variables you are considering together. The odds of drawing an ace of spades out of a deck of playing cards is one in 52. The odds of doing that twice in a row back to back is 1/52 x 1/52 = 1/2704. Every time scientists find a new variable that has to be precisely determined for a planet to exist that can sustain life, that probability is multiplied by all the other probabilities known. Science now knows of about 50 other solar systems, only one of which (ours) has the conditions needed for a stable planet. This makes the total probability 50 times less likely than it was before all this was discovered. That total probability is far beyond the number of possible atoms in the cosmos. "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" takes on a whole new level of credibility as we continue to gain knowledge about the cosmos." --Reference: Time, January 22, 2001, page 51 and Astronomy, July, 2000, page 94.
http://www.doesgodexist.org/MayJun01/NewPlanetsDemonstrateEarthsUniqueness.html
--John N. Clayton
http://unmaskingevolution.com/30-protein.htm (probability that proteins evolved, your gonna like this statistic)
http://www.gennet.org/facts/metro10.html (this link describes the probability of the eye forming by chance)
4. So you do not believe that organisms have a need to live? They just happen to exist for no logical purpose? Why are organisms, organisms? Why does the brain tell the organism to stay alive, eat, etc. as you assert?
5. I never said that morality was determined by the devil. If society is a product of chance then there are no absolutes or right or wrong because there is no objective standard for determining morality. Morality based on your explanation is overwhelmingly subjective. You mean to tell me that if you knock me in the head and take my car that that crime is a crime, or that that act is wrong because you would know me and then feel guilt? This makes no sense. Guilt (for you) would be a subjective thing—not some absolute standard by which I must live my life. Thus, your explanation about how right and wrong is determined is based on faulty logic.
6. The brain (an organ inside of the skull) is not the mind. The mind and the brain work symbiotically, but they are not one and the same. Besides, if conscience is simply a work of the brain (and not designed by God) then this would interfere with the process of natural selection. Natural selection is the premise that the most biologically fit organisms will prevail over the less fit organisms as they compete for the limited resources that they need to survive. So your explanation about conscience simply being a work of the brain and not the design of God is exploded.
7. Burning thought, why would organisms that are competing for resources to survive need to be kept in line? Can’t you see that your premise is exploded?
8. How do you explain the belief that so many cultures have in some kind of god? Again, your premise of natural selection suggests that my only motivation is to live. If that is true then why do cultures all over this earth desire (innately) to trust in, believe in, and worship a god of some sort? I should only care about me and my survival, not about worshipping something that I cannot see, but yet this phenomenon called “religion” is observable worldwide and among many cultures.
9. Wicked acts? Based on the premise of natural selection there is no such animal as wicked acts, there are only acts necessary to perpetuate my life. (Explain this one.)
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
To say that because a computer has a designer, therefore the brain must have a designer is not logical. It is like comparing apples and oranges.The universe is far more wondrous and amazing. The complexity of the brain can be achieved without a designer.
I would love for you to substantiate this.
the Theory of evolution is still not predicted on chance...evolution is not chance, chance would imply that no matter where an animal in the world was, it has the chance to evolve with wings, legs, fins etc etc as it evolves, this is not the case, its simply the creature is evolving around the environment its living in, this is not a difficult concept to understand and it is not chance.
"2. The genes that you inherited from your parents are irrelevant and immaterial (what do genes have to do with random, chance occurrence?). You mention you parents as if it is somehow pertinent or explanatory but your parents are a product of random, chance occurrence just like you because the theory of evolution postulates that the entire universe and everything in it is a product of chance"
why do you keep bringing up chance, there are very little random chances in this discussion at all, for example the Suns creation and the Earths distance is not really chance, its simply logical for it to happen because of the gravity of the sun combined with the rock and debris exploding from it in its creation, as i said before, my brain and thoughts as are everyones NOT random chance, thoughts are generated by our instincts and survival in a basic matter of speaking, and added to from our experiances in life, you dont randomly think "i want to do bungee jumping now", what leads up to that thought would be a great many things, the brain discussion stands as it did before, its not random, its genetics and evolution
"4. So you do not believe that organisms have a need to live? They just happen to exist for no logical purpose? Why are organisms, organisms? Why does the brain tell the organism to stay alive, eat, etc. as you assert?"
Organisms only need to live is their own survival in basic form, and for humans that is added to because we are simply overly intelligent compared to the average mouse or cat, there is no logical purpose other than that, were not here by the grace of a deity, were simply living on the planet, if the planet explodes life which is bound to excist in other galaxies are unlikely to know of it, life for them will carry on, no great godly cycle will be interrupted. The brain tells the organism to stay alive because thats its role, thats what evolution has tought it, its instinct, if someone aims a gun at your head, most people will panic not because they want to but because its an automatic function of the brain, the flight or fight system that determines wether you will attack agressor or cower before it in order to survive.
"5. I never said that morality was determined by the devil. If society is a product of chance then there are no absolutes or right or wrong because there is no objective standard for determining morality. Morality based on your explanation is overwhelmingly subjective. You mean to tell me that if you knock me in the head and take my car that that crime is a crime, or that that act is wrong because you would know me and then feel guilt? This makes no sense. Guilt (for you) would be a subjective thing—not some absolute standard by which I must live my life. Thus, your explanation about how right and wrong is determined is based on faulty logic."
once again, you keep on about chance, but it is not, i explained why already, if you do not understand it then it is not your fault, if i knocked you in the head and took your car then its a crime to people, people have been told its a crime, if suddenly a new law dictates that cars are all fair game, then i dont think many people will stand and say "oo but its wrong to steal" except for devout religious people, but ofcourse theyll be the ones having to walk to london while the people getting up early will just steal their cars if they do not have their own. I would only feel guilt for taking someones car because of the laws in place, the fear of getting cought, to be honest i dont think id think "poor guy doesnt have his car", most who "would" steal are car would feel guiltless about the person and more afraid of the law that "humans" have put in place. This is plain logic JIA, theres no fault in that, this is all fact.
also on Natural selection..biologically fit?, that doesnt exactley work anymore, maybe by animals but the most biologically fit human is not necceserily have any advantage over a less biologically fit, it just depends on "luck" in some cases ofcourse with lottery draws, heritige, no biological plan, wether a guy is a large muscular healthy person or a weak/disabled person, they all have chances to easily defeat natural selection.
"7. Burning thought, why would organisms that are competing for resources to survive need to be kept in line? Can’t you see that your premise is exploded? "
please explain the question more throughly, please quote where i said organisms competing for resources need to be kept in line so i can explain.
"8. How do you explain the belief that so many cultures have in some kind of god? Again, your premise of natural selection suggests that my only motivation is to live. If that is true then why do cultures all over this earth desire (innately) to trust in, believe in, and worship a god of some sort? I should only care about me and my survival, not about worshipping something that I cannot see, but yet this phenomenon called “religion” is observable worldwide and among many cultures. "
there are many reasons, perhaps hundreds, when man was early they simply created a God for themselves in their own heads, made him up (i still beleive this), they made it up because they could not explain questions and answers that come to them like how the world was created, they did not have science or technology until later, eventually though, slowly but surely these foolish beleifs were getting eradicated, the world was proven to be a sphere and not square, the sun was said to be in the centre of the solarsysten, not the Earth which people did not like, eventually slowly but surely humans have been finding answers but this is only where it began, today people all over the world believe in a God because either they do not like the idea of no life after death and that they just end, some people believe becuause of families, their parents and culture want them to believe as their parents had tought them in generations before hand, people also like to think a supernatural force is looking over them and helping them because it makes them more efficent, ofcourse sometimes people just beleive because the majority of an area belive in it.
"Wicked acts? Based on the premise of natural selection there is no such animal as wicked acts, there are only acts necessary to perpetuate my life. (Explain this one.)"
this is basically the same as "crime" explanation, its wicked because people say its wicked, killing someone for no reason is wicked because it is known by our culture as a crime, however in ancient times the vikings and other nomadic clans killed eachother and their enemies for sport, it is simply a matter of evolution, opinion and law
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
I would love for you to substantiate this.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
1) How is your brain not a product of random, chance occurrence when the very premise of the theory of evolution is predicated on chance?
You are completely wrong. There is no such thing as change in the real world. Evolution does not operate by change. Everything about evolution is how genes are passed down from parent to child. Mutations have very little to do with evolution, also, mutations do not equate to chance. Let me give you an example:
A bar of steel will brake when a specified force is applied to one end, if the other end is held in place with a greater force. We say there is a chance that the brake will occur at this specified force only because we do not know all of the parameters involved over time. However, the bar will always brake at the same point if all the parameters involved over time are the same. In reality, there is no such thing as change.
Your basic premise is incorrect. Evolution has nothing to do with change.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You are completely wrong. There is no such thing as change in the real world. Evolution does not operate by change. Everything about evolution is how genes are passed down from parent to child. Mutations have very little to do with evolution, also, mutations do not equate to chance. Let me give you an example:A bar of steel will brake when a specified force is applied to one end, if the other end is held in place with a greater force. We say there is a chance that the brake will occur at this specified force only because we do not know all of the parameters involved over time. However, the bar will always brake at the same point if all the parameters involved over time are the same. In reality, there is no such thing as change.
Your basic premise is incorrect. Evolution has nothing to do with change.
listen to me and Shakyamunison about this matter, we are both correct in this, you cannot simply fill in everything the human race cannot explain with "God does it"
Originally posted by Burning thought
my friend here ime afraid you are wrong....it is not how its supposed to work because of the human element, there is not a precise amount of food for everyone because their are actually people who starve, if it was so perfectly precise they wouldnt be starving, humans themsleves are destroying the planet with all their machinery and such, breaking trees and the like. A lot of essential life elements on the planet is simple circumtance, the location of the Earth, we were simply lucky, it doesnt take much to annihilate the earth, we ourselves could do it now, it doesnt take god to take away our planet or judge us, if there was a nuclear war now, it would all be gone, all gods churches, he couldnt save them, they would all be radioactive ruin...logically this planet simply evolved over time like the creatures did, taking into account the belief that this planet was formed through time and the parts of the suns creation, from the beginning of the Earths creaton, the evolution of the planet allowed it to evolve the things it needed, plants evolved because in their early stages their leaves were not vibrant enough to attract insects to move their seeds and preproduce and the like, so they evolved with greater attractiveness, the first spieces of fish did not suit their habitat so precisely hundreds of thousands year ago, so they had to evolve and over time, they evolved diffrently with perhaps legs and turned into amphibions. It took time and evolution to get things working for each other, and still although you seem to think it is, its not precise and working, its actually quite crooked
No, pal I disagree with you concerning the reason that people starve. People starve because of a lack of love and because of selfishness--not because there is a shortage of resources or food.
But you have confused evidence of intelligent design (i.e. that God through His infinite understanding, wisdom, and great power created all atoms, molecules, and life in general), with human shortcomings (one has nothing to do with the other). What do people starving have to do with my point about the many coincidences and happenstance that exist in order for this planet to support life? This was my point Burning thought.
The universe is still complicated in the most amazing fashion and could not have arisen though random, chance occurrence. This Burning thought is the subject under discussion. (Nice try though.)
Luck? You believe that the earth is 93 million miles from the sun (any closer and we would disintegrate, and further away and we would freeze), has a 23 degree tilt to allow for beautiful seasons, has all of the qualities necessary to support life, an atmosphere that blocks most ultraviolet radiation
One of the convincing arguments that Earth was created by God and is not a product of blind chance is the number of properties of our planet, the Sun, the Solar System, and the galaxy in which we live that have to be precisely what they are for any kind of life (not ours necessarily) to exist. The galaxy has to be the right type of galaxy, we have to have the right position in the galaxy, our Sun has to be the right type of star and at the right age in its life process, we have to have the right size, mass, tilt, magnetic field, distribution of land masses, chemical makeup, atmosphere, distance to the Sun, etc.
Now we have learned that the size, distribution, and orbital shape of the planets within the solar system are also critical to the creation and survival of life. Every time new variables are discovered that have to be precisely controlled for life of any kind to exist, the probability that these variables could be a product of chance formation becomes that much less.
http://www.doesgodexist.org/MayJun01/NewPlanetsDemonstrateEarthsUniqueness.html
--John N. Clayton
“93 million miles from the blistering surface of the sun, hangs the planet earth. A rotating sphere perfectly suspended in the center of the universe. The ultimate creation from an infinite mind. An unbelievably intricate complex design. A supernatural testimony, an irrefutable sign, that there is a God. The size, position, and angle of the earth is a scientific phenomenon to see. A few degrees closer to the sun, we’d disintegrate, a few degrees further, we’d freeze. The axis of the earth is tilted at a perfect 23-degree angle; it’s no mistake that it is. This allows equal global distribution to the rays of the sun, making it possible for the food chain to exist. Or take for example the combination of nitrogen and oxygen; in the atmosphere we breathe every day. It just happens to be the exact mix that life needs to prosper. It doesn’t happen on any other planet that way. You see the Bible says the invisible things of God are clearly seen through his creation. To believe this is not hard. If there’s a design, there’s a designer, if there’s a plan, there’s a planner, and if there’s a miracle, there is a God.”
http://members.tripod.com/tmgardengal/what_is_wrong_with_evolution.htm
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveThese are some really old articles, and as for Earth being unique other than having life it is not. Also what to say as we know it has to exist on this level, just on Earth alone there are vast different levels of life that survive in the harshest of climates much like you find on other planets.
No, pal I disagree with you concerning the [b]reason that people starve. People starve because of a lack of love and because of selfishness--not because there is a shortage of resources or food.But you have confused evidence of intelligent design (i.e. that God through His infinite understanding, wisdom, and great power created all atoms, molecules, and life in general), with human shortcomings (one has nothing to do with the other). What do people starving have to do with my point about the many coincidences and happenstance that exist in order for this planet to support life? This was my point Burning thought.
The universe is still complicated in the most amazing fashion and could not have arisen though random, chance occurrence. This Burning thought is the subject under discussion. (Nice try though.)Luck? You believe that the earth is 93 million miles from the sun (any closer and we would disintegrate, and further away and we would freeze), has a 23 degree tilt to allow for beautiful seasons, has all of the qualities necessary to support life, an atmosphere that blocks most ultraviolet radiation
One of the convincing arguments that Earth was created by God and is not a product of blind chance is the number of properties of our planet, the Sun, the Solar System, and the galaxy in which we live that have to be precisely what they are for any kind of life (not ours necessarily) to exist. The galaxy has to be the right type of galaxy, we have to have the right position in the galaxy, our Sun has to be the right type of star and at the right age in its life process, we have to have the right size, mass, tilt, magnetic field, distribution of land masses, chemical makeup, atmosphere, distance to the Sun, etc.
Now we have learned that the size, distribution, and orbital shape of the planets within the solar system are also critical to the creation and survival of life. Every time new variables are discovered that have to be precisely controlled for life of any kind to exist, the probability that these variables could be a product of chance formation becomes that much less.
http://www.doesgodexist.org/MayJun01/NewPlanetsDemonstrateEarthsUniqueness.html
--John N. Clayton“93 million miles from the blistering surface of the sun, hangs the planet earth. A rotating sphere perfectly suspended in the center of the universe. The ultimate creation from an infinite mind. An unbelievably intricate complex design. A supernatural testimony, an irrefutable sign, that there is a God. The size, position, and angle of the earth is a scientific phenomenon to see. A few degrees closer to the sun, we’d disintegrate, a few degrees further, we’d freeze. The axis of the earth is tilted at a perfect 23-degree angle; it’s no mistake that it is. This allows equal global distribution to the rays of the sun, making it possible for the food chain to exist. Or take for example the combination of nitrogen and oxygen; in the atmosphere we breathe every day. It just happens to be the exact mix that life needs to prosper. It doesn’t happen on any other planet that way. You see the Bible says the invisible things of God are clearly seen through his creation. To believe this is not hard. If there’s a design, there’s a designer, if there’s a plan, there’s a planner, and if there’s a miracle, there is a God.”
http://members.tripod.com/tmgardengal/what_is_wrong_with_evolution.htm
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