Originally posted by Sam Z
Barry is in the future? Since when?
It's not really a certainty. It's my belief that I've mentioned in other threads, after JLA arc with the Legion and the JSA that the Legion was attempting to bring Barry through the Speed Force (why else would they be accessing the Speed Force at all, as they stated bringing Wally back was incidental), as also evidenced by the rising threat of Earth 1 and 2 style characters on NEW Earth who are messing around with time (Per Degaton, classic Despero, and Classic Ultra-Humanite), and who better to have to combat these threats than the one guy (non withstanding "ultra" characters) who has breached this barrier by nothing more than his own powers?
I guess other people have floated that idea and are coming up with it, too.
Originally posted by Juntai
He's in an alternate reality. They discussed it in Bart's Flash series. He was seen helping against Superboy Prime in Infinite Crisis, and helped hold Superboy
That doesn't mean he isn't also in the future. Or in the Speed Force. Or also dead.
The nature of Flashes mean that even the ones who are still "really dead" aren't dead at all.
Originally posted by tjcoadySo you're suggesting Bart ran Superboy Prime into the speedforce, and they both died, and in the afterlife, they went to Keystone city, hung out with Barry and kept Superboy Prime locked up, until he escaped back to life, hopped universes and started bashing heros, and Bart had to absorb the speedforce and chase him?
That doesn't mean he isn't also in the future. Or in the Speed Force. Or also dead.The nature of Flashes mean that even the ones who are still "really dead" aren't dead at all.
I take it you didn't read any of this material, and are just wildly speculating.
Originally posted by Juntai
So you're suggesting Bart ran Superboy Prime into the speedforce, and they both died, and in the afterlife, they went to Keystone city, hung out with Barry and kept Superboy Prime locked up, until he escaped back to life, hopped universes and started bashing heros, and Bart had to absorb the speedforce and chase him?I take it you didn't read any of this material, and are just wildly speculating.
Not at all. I read the Flash series up to Bart's death, both of the crises, and all of the issues of the current JLA run.
I kind of resent that insinuation that I'm wildly speculating and am talking about something I haven't read. You've seen my posts before, Juntai... I've been on KMC for a long while now, and you know that I only talk about comics I've actually read.
What you're saying here isn't what I'm explaining... even remotely. Barry is dead. We saw him die on panel, and he hasn't had a resurrection. But the nature of his powers and the fact that he has been seen DOZENS of times since his death (including his own funeral), and the fact that during the first crisis and directly afterwards, when he was trying to breach the Anti-Monitor, he did enter into the Speed Force, and went, among other places, to help out in the second crisis certainly implies that it's not impossibly that a Barry Allen who has died can still appear many more times.
Ever read Astro City? It's like that even the Silver Agent is dead, he still has appeared within their continuity several times since he was executed.
I don't exactly see what you're objecting to, or why you think I'm claiming that he died a second time while helping Bart out against Superboy.
Here is a list of things that Barry has done/is still doing/will do in the future despite being fated to do only a few days later against the Anti-Monitor:
Barry deals out a spot of justice to Abra Kadabra (with the unlikely assistance of the Rogues Gallery), Barry and Iris depart for the thirtieth century, Iris’ true home time.
Legionnaires Annual #3 (1996) “The Long Road Home” —
Becoming separated from Iris and slightly lost on his trip home, Barry encounters his granddaughter, XS of the Legion of Super Heroes, likewise time travelling to the thirtieth century. This story also reveals that Barry had returned to his original face and hair color (he changed them to protect his loved ones during the trial).
The Flash #148 (May 1999) “Chain Lightning, Chapter Four: Undertow” —
In the thirtieth century, Barry rescues Wally from an army of speedsters led by the Cobalt Blue-possessed Jay Garrick.
The Flash #149 (June 1999) “Chain Lightning, Chapter Five: Whirlpool” —
Barry and Wally free Jay from Cobalt Blue’s control. The three combine their efforts to send the other speedsters back to their home times. After a brief reunion, Jay too returns to his proper place in time. Barry and Wally encounter Pariah briefly before he disappears again. A revived Cobalt Blue strikes down Barry, killing him, and creating an alternate timeline where the Anti-Monitor won the Crisis.
The Flash #150 (July 1999) “Chain Lightning, Finale: Finish Line” —
After visiting several horrific alternate timelines where the good guys died during the Crisis, Wally manages to travel back to a point just before Cobalt Blue struck Barry down, restoring time and saving Barry, but at the cost of his own apparent death.
Impulse #86 (July 2002) “Crisis on Impulse’s Earth, part one” —
Barry is pulled from the thirtieth century back the twenty-first when Impulse is briefly gifted with incredible magical powers.
Impulse #87 (August 2002) “Crisis on Impulse’s Earth, part two” —
Barry learns of his death, and asks Impulse to restore him to his correct place in time. Max Mercury and the Phantom Stranger persuade Impulse to abandon his new powers, and he agrees to do so. Before he discharges the magical energy into the Speed Force, Impulse undoes everything he has down with the power, returning Barry to the thirtieth century.
The Flash #200 (September 2003) “Blitz: The Conclusion—The Final Race” —
A few days before he is destined to die, Barry travels back in time to visit the despondent Wally West, and convince him to remain the Flash. Together with Hal Jordan, the Flashes decide to erase the world’s memory of their identities. Barry tells Wally how proud he is of him, one last time, before he returns to the future and Hal performs the erasure.
Crisis on Infinite Earths #3 (June 1985) “Oblivion Upon Us” —
After living in the 30th century for a month, Barry encounters the Anti-Matter Wall, and travels back to the twentieth century to escape it and warn the other heroes about the Crisis.
Legends of the DC Universe: Crisis on Infinite Earths #1 (February 1999) “The Untold Story” —
Somehow getting lost between dimensions, Barry briefly discovers Earth-D, and, with the assistance of heroes from Earth-D and Earth-One, succeeds in saving many of that world’s inhabitants from the Anti-Monitor .
Crisis on Infinite Earths #3 (June 1985) “Oblivion Upon Us” —
Barry is mysteriously abducted.
Crisis on Infinite Earths #5 (August 1985) “Worlds in Limbo” —
The Anti-Monitor reveals that it he who captured Barry, as his ability to easily cross dimensions threatens the Anti-Monitor’s plans. Barry, kept in check by the power of the Psycho Pirate, is forced to watch helplessly as the Anti-Monitor’s program of destruction continues apace and the Red Tornado is transformed into an elemental force. The Psycho Pirate amuses himself by torturing Barry with various extremes of emotion.
Crisis on Infinite Earths #6 (September 1985) “3 Earths! 3 Deaths!” —
Barry recovers somewhat from the treatment given him by the Psycho-Pirate, but conceals this fact from his captors, awaiting his chance to make a move.
Crisis on Infinite Earths #8 (June 1985) “A Flash of the Lightning” —
After freeing himself from the Anti-Monitor’s prison, Barry kidnaps the Psycho-Pirate and forces him to use his powers on the minions of the Anti-Monitor, causing them to rebel against him. Using his super-speed to destroy the anti-matter cannon that was the Anti-Monitor’s weapon, Barry gives his life in his process. In doing so, he transcends time briefly, and appears both in flashbacks and flashforwards.
The chronological sequence for these is as follows:
* Crisis on Infinite Earths #12 (October 1985)
* The Flash #199 (August 2003)
* Deadman: Dead Again #1 (October 2001)
* Crisis on Infinite Earths #2 (May 1985)
JLA: Incarnations #5 (November 2001) “Changes” —
Barry’s last thoughts as he runs to his death around the anti-matter cannon, and a brief view of his ecstatic union with the Speed Force, as he experiences a one-ness with it, sees much of the future, and reaches out to touch Iris one last time—possibly creating the mutation that passed his speed along to the Tornado Twins in doing so.
Note that this story takes placeduring Crisis on Infinite Earths #8, and includes Barry’s relevant appearances in both “The Life Story of the Flash” graphic novel and Secret Origins Annual #2 (1988)—“Mystery of the Human Thunderbolt.”
Deadman: Dead Again #1 (October 2001) “The Quick and the Dead” —
Deadman witnesses Barry’s final sacrifice, and meets him after he dies. Before Barry can be escorted to his final fate, the pair are attacked by Darius Caldera. Caldera captures Barry, imprisoning him in a Soul Cage
Deadman: Dead Again #2 (October 2001) “Dead Loss” —
Darius Caldera boasts to the imprisoned Barry that he will soon have company as he arranges Barry’s Soul Cage at one point of a pentagram. Caldera then claims the soul of Jason Todd.
Deadman: Dead Again #3 (October 2001) “Dead End” —
Deadman manages to prevents Darius Caldera from capturing Superman’s soul, but is himself imprisoned alongside Barry and Jason Todd. The trio are surprised by the revelation that Neron is the secret power backing Caldera.
Deadman: Dead Again #4 (October 2001) “Deadlock” —
Deadman escapes from his Soul Cage, leaving Barry and Jason so that he can save Superman and Hal Jordan from Neron.
Deadman: Dead Again #5 (October 2001) “Deadline” —
The intervention of the Spectre (Hal Jordan) enables Deadman to travel back in time and prevent Caldera from ever summoning Neron, thus undoing the capture of various heroes’ souls, including Barry’s. Possibly this temporal confusion explains Barry’s next few appearances.
The Sandman Presents: The Thessaliad #3 (May 2002) “Necromancer, or What Ever Made You Think Ghosts Carry Money?” —
An amnesiac Barry visits the Living Dead Legends cafe.
Quasar #17 (June 1990, Marvel Comics) “Reborn to Run” —
Barry, still partially bereft of memory, and believing that his name might be “Buried Alien, or something like that,” briefly races against the speedsters of Earth in the Marvel Universe in a competition organized by the Elder of the (Marvel) Universe named the Runner, easily out-pacing them all, even the Eternal Makkari. He wins, and is thus permitted to join the next level, the Milky Way Galaxy race.
Quasar #58 (May 1994, Marvel Comics) “Distant Running” —
Barry, wearing a variation of his Flash costume and calling himself “Fastforward,” is still unable to remember his real name or identity. He runs in the Galactic Race, but turns aside from the lead to stop another racer from cheating. He loses the race, but Makkari wins it. The two of them decline to compete in the next level, but instead run off together simply for the joy of doing so. At some point thereafter, presumably after returning to the DC Universe, Barry is absorbed into the Speed Force.
The Flash Annual #11 (1998) “Haunts” —
Johnny Quick reaches out to Wally from the Speed Force, wanting a chance to say goodbye to his daughter. Wally drags Jesse into the Speed Force so that they can talk. Johnny confirms that Barry is also in the Speed Force.
The Flash #150 (July 1999) “Chain Lightning, Finale: Finish Line” —
After Wally’s apparent death, we get a brief view of the Speed Force that has absorbed him. He is pictured endlessly and joyously running with the lightning alongside many other speedsters, including Barry.
Green Arrow #7 (October 2001) “Quiver Chapter 7: Hard Travelling Heroes” —
The resurrected Green Arrow returns to Heaven with Hal Jordan, and encounters Barry Allen there.
Impulse #82 (March 2002) “Double Visions” —
While meditating, Max Mercury contacts Barry Allen and Johnny Quick in the Speed Force.
Infinite Crisis #4 (February 2006) “Homecoming” —
Barry, along with Johnny and Max, help Wally and Bart to imprison the Superboy of Earth-Prime in the Speed Force.
The Flash: Fastest Man Alive #6 (January 2007) “Lightning in a Bottle, Part six: Burning Bridges” —
Barry gives Bart his costume when Bart returns to Earth to warn of Superboy’s escape from the Speed Force.
.....................................................................................
So the idea of Barry being pulled into the future as well is not only plausible, but down right inevitable.
I really don't have a clue why the idea that Barry could have been grabbed by Legion is so absurd to you.
And one more thing.... if the Legion is not attempting to also bring Barry Allen into the future...
why do we have the lighting symbolism throughout the entire thing?
Why do we have the many repeated references and motiffs relating to Barry (including Batman, who is never wrong, referencing him, more than once. And the shot of the place where Barry first appeared to Bruce during COIE)?
Why is the Legion accessing the Speed Force if they didn't care about bringing Wally back?
Sorry for harping on about this, and I'll stop, because this is not the right thread for it. I just don't understand why someone would think that not only is the idea that the Legion was aiming to get Barry incorrect, but that I'm just pulling ideas out of my ass without any context, clues, or evidence to back it up when not only is it a possibility, but also the most likely possibility.
I mean, there is a chance that it's Lighting Lad the Legion was trying to bring back. But he's been reintroduced since then. There is not a single other person that fits.
Originally posted by tjcoadyBut it's obvious that he's not dead, he only converted to energy and speedforce jumped to another location. But on Earth, he might as well be, but as we've seen his endeavors, it's quite clear he IS alive, and not dead at all.
Not at all. I read the Flash series up to Bart's death, both of the crises, and all of the issues of the current JLA run.I kind of resent that insinuation that I'm wildly speculating and am talking about something I haven't read. You've seen my posts before, Juntai... I've been on KMC for a long while now, and you know that I only talk about comics I've actually read.
What you're saying here isn't what I'm explaining... even remotely. Barry is dead. We saw him die on panel, and he hasn't had a resurrection. But the nature of his powers and the fact that he has been seen DOZENS of times since his death (including his own funeral), and the fact that during the first crisis and directly afterwards, when he was trying to breach the Anti-Monitor, he did enter into the Speed Force, and went, among other places, to help out in the second crisis certainly implies that it's not impossibly that a Barry Allen who has died can still appear many more times.
Ever read Astro City? It's like that even the Silver Agent is dead, he still has appeared within their continuity several times since he was executed.
I don't exactly see what you're objecting to, or why you think I'm claiming that he died a second time while helping Bart out against Superboy.
Originally posted by Juntai
But it's obvious that he's not dead, he only converted to energy and speedforce jumped to another location. But on Earth, he might as well be, but as we've seen his endeavors, it's quite clear he IS alive, and not dead at all.
That's one way of seeing it.
The way I see it, when he achieved maximum speed during his duel with the Antimonitor, he was going so fast and so beyond our understanding of time he could effectively continually show up many times after his death. He's still dead, but that doesn't mean he won't keep reappearing.