Originally posted by PITT_HAPPENS
When I think of complex thing forming at random it always makes me think or crystals and especially snow flakes. You have the same material coming from the same place but they all form differently and in very complex and intricate patterns. No one designed these and they form this way naturally.
Is that why prays are never answered during snow storms? God is to busy making snow flakes. 😆
Originally posted by DigiMark007
I remember using the Anthropic Principle to cling to agnosticism for a long time. Then it was just like, "Oh, right. That doesn't really justify anything. If the forces weren't as they are, we wouldn't be here to talk about it."For your God to create the universe from outside and apart the universe, He would have to be outside of Time and Space, making it literally impossible affect time and space.
Beyond that, people love to say that if, say, the force of gravity was off by {insert astronomically small number}, we couldn't exist as we do. But gravity's a Constant. So are the other forces in the anthropic principle. And how could a constant be anything other than it is? It can't.
My argument doesn't disprove a God. There's plenty of other means to do that, and also plenty of philosophical and scientific explanations for the existence of the universe that don't involve a God....and they make much more sense. But the Anthropic Principle is an insanely weak way of trying to justify an irrational belief using scientific data that isn't related to a Creator in any way.
...
Honestly, the whole "a watch suggests a watchmaker, creation suggests a creator" argument (closely tied to this idea) doesn't fit either. And even if there is some fundamental cause of existence that is somehow Transcendant of our material existence, I'm quite certain that religion doesn't explain it adequately...or its explanations leave a lot to be desired.
Why doesn't
"a watch suggests a watchmaker, creation suggests a creator"
argument fit?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Why doesn't"a watch suggests a watchmaker, creation suggests a creator"
argument fit?
Apples and Oranges. A watch is made from things that already exist, were as the universe would have to be made from nothing. Also, we know that a watch was made or created, but there is no proof, one way or the other, rather the universe was created or not. There is the possibility that the universe has always existed in one form or another.
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Apples and Oranges. A watch is made from things that already exist, were as the universe would have to be made from nothing. Also, we know that a watch was made or created, but there is no proof, one way or the other, rather the universe was created or not. There is the possibility that the universe has always existed in one form or another.
This raises a question: "Is Nothing really nothing?"
I'll save it for the philosophy forum.
Originally posted by PITT_HAPPENS
Why haven't they invented a computer that runs off photons? Why haven't they invented teleportation for humans? You keep harping on this idea that since they haven’t they can not, there has been time and time again where the best minds in the world said that it can’t be done and then you get some person that does it with some new idea or technology.
But present technology is at such a zenith that is should not require much time to do anything that we desire to do.
So, why can't the best minds in the world do what God did? Why can't they create a sun and hang it in space? Why can't they create a planet uniquely habitable like ours with all of its complexity? Why can't we create a cell with all of its complication? Why can't we create consciousness with all of its wonderful mysteriousness? Why can't we create a seed that will grow into a Giant Sequoia? Why can't we create life (without using preexistent sperm and eggs)?
Well, what say you PITT_HAPPENS?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But present technology is at such a zenith that is should not require much time to do anything that we desire to do.So, why can't the best minds in the world do what God did? Why can't they create a sun and hanging in space? Why can't they create a planet uniquely habitable like ours with all of its complexity? Why can't we create a cell with all of its complication? Why can't we create consciousness with all of its wonderful mysteriousness? Why can't we create a seed that will grow into a Giant Sequoia? Why can't we create life (without using preexistent sperm and eggs)?
Well, what say you PITT_HAPPENS?
Well, your use of the word 'zenith' is totally wrong.
And what will you say once we CAN do all those things? Other than nothing because you will be long gone of old age by then.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But present technology is at such a zenith that is should not require much time to do anything that we desire to do.
Originally posted by Emperor Ashtar
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/11/02/brain.dish/
This fails my criteria. You see, God creates from nothing; therefore, using preexistent DNA/brain cells from a rat (which God created) is not creating from nothing. Scientists must create their own living organism for this to be a valid instance. They must creat their own cell.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
This fails my criteria. You see, God creates from [b]nothing; therefore, using preexistent DNA/brain cells from a rat (which God created) is not creating from nothing. Scientists must create their own living organism for this to be a valid instance. They must creat their own cell. [/B]
Even if we did create life you would only say it has to be made from nothing.
"Nothing" doesn't exist.
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
This fails my criteria. You see, God creates from [b]nothing; therefore, using preexistent DNA/brain cells from a rat (which God created) is not creating from nothing. Scientists must create their own living organism for this to be a valid instance. They must creat their own cell. [/B]
According to Kabbalists, the G-d of Israel created the universe from Nothing. That is He created Something from Nothing. The term "Something from Nothing" in Hebrew is Yesh M'Ayin.
How can Something come from Nothing? To answer this you must understand the nature of Nothing. This can be a fruitless life-long pursuit or you can get lucky. Here is not the place to discuss the pursuit of enlightenment though. Let's just say that the epiphany of the nature of "Nothingness" is the quintessential mystical experience.
The Hebrew word for "Nothing" is Ayin. Ayin is also the Hebrew word for "eye".
Another Hebrew term for the "Nothing" source of all- is "Ayn Sof" or "without end".
Nothing does have an unusual intrinsic quality. It glows. This glow is called the Ohr Ayn Sof or the "Light of (the Nothingness) Without End. "
The Symbol that is referred to as the "All-Seeing Eye" is an allusion to the Nothingness and the glow which emanates from it.
The glow is something. It comes from Nothing.
This glow, this light is the stuff from which everything originates.
The process, known as "chaining down" or in Hebrew, "Hishtalshelus" is an important part of the body of Kabbalistic knowledge.
It is known that the G-d of Israel created all things through a process which is sub-divided into 39 divine "sub-processes". The 39 processes of creation are personified in the 39 processes that were used to create the Mishkan. The Mishkan, or Tabernacle was the centerpiece of the ancient community of Israel.
"Man was created in the image of G-d"
Zu k'neged zu. This opposite that is another important Kabbalistic concept. It is a concept of what is below reflects that which is above. It is related to the concept of "Man was made in the image of G-d".
When the craftsmen created the Tabernacle in the desert they were mimicking the Creator's efforts. They were participating in creating something out of nothing. They had created the Tabernacle. A Temple designed to mimick and therefore encapsulate the forces of creation. The Tabernacle below reflected the Tabernacle above.
The Tabernacle above created something from nothing. The Tabernacle below did the same but because it was a mirrored reflection. It also reversed the process. It returned somethingness back to the original source of Nothingness.
This is the kabbalistic concepts of "running and returning" and "reflected light".
This is the mystery of the sacrifices.
One of the purposes of the Yabernacle below here on Earth which is situated in the lowest of worlds. Is to create something out of nothing. The Earth is the physical manifestation of pregnant Nothingness. At first glance it looks like a simple blue ball from space but with man's influence (Man in the image of G-d) it's potential is limitless.
Originally posted by JesusIsAliveSaying that we are at a “zenith” or technology is very inaccurate, that would imply that we are at the top and can not go farther which is far from the truth. New technology, science and understanding are learned each day and we are only scratching the surface of bio technology. If you don’t believe me simply look at information technology and computers and what has been invented in just the past 50 years.
But present technology is at such a zenith that is should not require much time to do anything that we desire to do.So, why can't the best minds in the world do what God did? Why can't they create a sun and hang it in space? Why can't they create a planet uniquely habitable like ours with all of its complexity? Why can't we create a cell with all of its complication? Why can't we create consciousness with all of its wonderful mysteriousness? Why can't we create a seed that will grow into a Giant Sequoia? Why can't we create life (without using preexistent sperm and eggs)?
Well, what say you PITT_HAPPENS?
Answer me this JIA why is it that snow flakes coming from the same source are all different? Each snow flake has a very complex and intricate designs and are formed naturally, if they all come from the same material and source why are their a myriad of different yet symmetrical configurations?
Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
But present technology is at such a zenith that is should not require much time to do anything that we desire to do.So, why can't the best minds in the world do what God did? Why can't they create a sun and hang it in space? Why can't they create a planet uniquely habitable like ours with all of its complexity? Why can't we create a cell with all of its complication? Why can't we create consciousness with all of its wonderful mysteriousness? Why can't we create a seed that will grow into a Giant Sequoia? Why can't we create life (without using preexistent sperm and eggs)?
Well, what say you PITT_HAPPENS?
The funny thing is that we know how to do it but just don't have the power, resources or raw material to do it. 😉
Simulating a neutron star 😉
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Read 'The Blind Watchmaker'. Has your answer.
✅
Also, PITT's snowflake analogy works well enough too. I can't disprove God using the Anthropic Principle. But you trying to use it as a justification for belief is ludicrous, as the two have absolutely nothing to do with each other.