Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Smurf's Civil War/Marvel Rant...
Originally posted by Martian_mindI see. Well then for all those other reasons everyone else mentioned. And it just seems unamerican, by the way, to be doing anything other than being a reactionary. There could be superhero police. But the whole registration is the same thing as what people were doing to Mutants.
As a sign of faith,he didn't force Spidey into it.Spiderman was just being thick 😬
Re: Re: Re: Smurf's Civil War/Marvel Rant...
Originally posted by TricksterPriestIt's not... Stark personally headed SHIELD to make sure that nobody would have a way of finding out. Hell, only he is supposed to know.
Here in lies one of the problems and reasons why SRA doesn't work. Why should the information be public at all? 😕 Why not let only the government, or a select few people know the secret identities. Otherwise, you're just letting villains know who to kidnap/torture/mutate/kill to hurt the heroes most. ❌
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Well, this hasn't happened in Canada yet. They have their own registration act. So either theirs isn't public, or no nobody cares enough about Canada or Alpha Flight enough to attack them. 😛
Alpha Flight > most American heroes.
Originally posted by TricksterPriestJust to prove my statement correct?
And dur you, Smurf. dur I could respond to that with how DC handled this situation in the 50s (comic-time).
Originally posted by TricksterPriestAll of which made sense.
Btw, Stark did other reprehensible things besides Clor. The Negative Zone prison, the exile of the Hulk, the persecution of superheroes for doing their job
And please tell me you're kidding about Hulk...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Smurf's Civil War/Marvel Rant...
Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
It's not... Stark personally headed SHIELD to make sure that nobody would have a way of finding out. Hell, only he is supposed to know.Alpha Flight > most American heroes.
Just to prove my statement correct?
All of which made sense.
And please tell me you're kidding about Hulk...
And you think Stark is trustworthy? ermm
And I'm only half kidding about the Hulk. Exiling him directly set up the events of Planet Hulk and gave him a target for WWH. So in effect, Stark is partially responsible for all the damage Hulk is going to cause in WWH. It's like how the CIA armed Bin Laden and trained him. They're partially responsible for his using that knowledge and how he applied it.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Smurf's Civil War/Marvel Rant...
Originally posted by TricksterPriestExcept, if it wasn't actually Earth heroes like implied, then Tony is not responsible... on bit.
And you think Stark is trustworthy? ermmAnd I'm only half kidding about the Hulk. Exiling him directly set up the events of Planet Hulk and gave him a target for WWH. So in effect, Stark is partially responsible for all the damage Hulk is going to cause in WWH. It's like how the CIA armed Bin Laden and trained him. They're partially responsible for his using that knowledge and how he applied it.
He got rid of the Hulk, and gave him a better life (and everyone else), and if it wasn't actually him that set off the bomb, then it wasn't really Tony's/Reed's fault.
Framed, more like it.
You're a bit late Spunky, I was bitching about the premise when it started. 131
Marvel already had an allegory for discrimination - mutants; which was a more legitimate civil rights allegory as it wasn't based on costumed heroics as a choice, it was based on genetically derived uncontrolled differences. And ordinary people in Marvel have in general always disliked mutants and would do so regardless of if there was no Magneto et al.
Halfway through Civil War they made it more akin to a civil rights issue in that powered people were made to register I think... but then it just becomes inconsistent - the likes of street levelers are never going to be able to cause any massive death and destruction that any ordinary person couldn't given the right resources... so is it about costumed heroics or powers at that stage... only the latter of which is an actual civil rights issue.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Smurf's Civil War/Marvel Rant...
Originally posted by TricksterPriestIf Bin Laden was an American Citizen, who had caused untold damage to persons and property, and the US didn't want/couldn't execute him, so they exiled him to another country (or deported him, I suppose), and Bin Laden came back with a vengeance, I wouldn't blame the US for kicking him out...
And you think Stark is trustworthy? ermmAnd I'm only half kidding about the Hulk. Exiling him directly set up the events of Planet Hulk and gave him a target for WWH. So in effect, Stark is partially responsible for all the damage Hulk is going to cause in WWH. It's like how the CIA armed Bin Laden and trained him. They're partially responsible for his using that knowledge and how he applied it.
Originally posted by xmarksthespotTrue enough.
You're a bit late Spunky, I was bitching about the premise when it started. 131Marvel already had an allegory for discrimination - mutants; which was a more legitimate civil rights allegory as it wasn't based on costumed heroics as a choice, it was based on genetically derived uncontrolled differences. And ordinary people in Marvel have in general always disliked mutants and would do so regardless of if there was no Magneto et al.
Halfway through Civil War they made it more akin to a civil rights issue in that powered people were made to register I think... but then it just becomes inconsistent - the likes of street levelers are never going to be able to cause any massive death and destruction that any ordinary person couldn't given the right resources... so is it about costumed heroics or powers at that stage... only the latter of which is an actual civil rights issue.
You can't say that being forced to be held responsible for your actions when you choose to wear colorful spandex and fight Doc Ock is an infringement on your Civil Rights.
If you're worried enough about the effects of having Tony Stark know your name, that a villain might come back and kill your family, maybe you should get out of the crime fighting business.
Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Fair enough, at first I had mixed feelings about Civil War, but that was when it was first coming out and I wasn't following it too closely. Since then I've had a chance to sit down, read the whole story/arc from front to back, form an opinion, and feel a little more knowledgeable about the whole situation. Then I come back on KMC, and all I hear is nameless peoples continue to b*tch about Civil War, Tony Stark, and Marvel in general.Look at the concept of Civil War: Registering people with powers to level city blocks, and then some, with the government, to stave off the threat of cataclysmic destruction at the hands of some pre-teen walking nuke who decided it would be cool to be a vigilante like his favourite heroes that he sees on the news.
If the world of comics had any sense of realism, this would have happened ages ago. Do you really think modern day society would allow somebody who could lift freight trains to NOT be held personally accountable for their actions after even the first incident of damage to a person or their property? Much less all the other ensuing damage caused by battles with Spider-Man, Iron Man and Captain America?
Comics are not Saturday Morning Cartoon Specials. Pain is caused, building are damaged, and people die. If comics were anything like modern reality, then the moment a child was caused personal and permanent damage by the side effects of a battle with Dr. Doom, anybody in a cape and mask, hero or villain, would be crucified by the media and the public.
With the exclusion of Clor, Tony Stark did nothing wrong. And the Clor incident seemed clearly a ploy to me to make out Stark to be evil. Honestly, it's imbecilic to think that allowing the Government to keep tabs on walking warheads is anything other then common sense.
Too many people don't realize the whole basis for Civil War was the natural and long overdue evolution of the fictional superhuman society, that fact eclipsed to all the bleeding hearts out there because Cap died. I say, let them bleed. And, if you can tell me where that reference is from, I'll be grateful, because the quote is running through my head and it's bothering me that I don't know the source.
[/rant]
i don't believe that the government has the right to dictate to superhumans, unless said government is composed of superhumans... shield doesnt count imo...
i still believe that the best way to do it would be to set up an organisation composed of senior heroes that would deal with any threats posed by evil or simply inexperienced capes...
i've said it before, i'd prefer that it was all dealt with 'in-house'
non-powered humans, imo, have no right to dictate to people who literally hold the lives of thousands of people in their hands every day...
also what x and superherovandal said about the prison and shield too...
i believed that cap was right to go against it, and i still do...
Originally posted by pr1983You Hippies ranting
i don't believe that the government has the right to dictate to superhumans, unless said government is composed of superhumans... shield doesnt count imo...i still believe that the best way to do it would be to set up an organisation composed of senior heroes that would deal with any threats posed by evil or simply inexperienced capes...
i've said it before, i'd prefer that it was all dealt with 'in-house'
non-powered humans, imo, have no right to dictate to people who literally hold the lives of thousands of people in their hands every day...
also what x and superherovandal said about the prison and shield too...
i believed that cap was right to go against it, and i still do...
Originally posted by pr1983It isn't a dictatorship... or, it shouldn't be, if Marvel wasn't out to make the SRA look like Mein Kampf.
i don't believe that the government has the right to dictate to superhumans, unless said government is composed of superhumans... shield doesnt count imo...i still believe that the best way to do it would be to set up an organisation composed of senior heroes that would deal with any threats posed by evil or simply inexperienced capes...
i've said it before, i'd prefer that it was all dealt with 'in-house'
non-powered humans, imo, have no right to dictate to people who literally hold the lives of thousands of people in their hands every day...
It is simply people keeping their own lives and security safe from a potentially jeopardizing situation.
Non-powered humans have every right to say that they want the government to keep walking nukes in check, superheroes aren't above the law, and if they pose a threat to regular humans, then regular humans should be able to ensure their safety.