Re: Smurf's Civil War/Marvel Rant...
Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Fair enough, at first I had mixed feelings about Civil War, but that was when it was first coming out and I wasn't following it too closely. Since then I've had a chance to sit down, read the whole story/arc from front to back, form an opinion, and feel a little more knowledgeable about the whole situation. Then I come back on KMC, and all I hear is nameless peoples continue to b*tch about Civil War, Tony Stark, and Marvel in general.Look at the concept of Civil War: Registering people with powers to level city blocks, and then some, with the government, to stave off the threat of cataclysmic destruction at the hands of some pre-teen walking nuke who decided it would be cool to be a vigilante like his favourite heroes that he sees on the news.
If the world of comics had any sense of realism, this would have happened ages ago. Do you really think modern day society would allow somebody who could lift freight trains to NOT be held personally accountable for their actions after even the first incident of damage to a person or their property? Much less all the other ensuing damage caused by battles with Spider-Man, Iron Man and Captain America?
Comics are not Saturday Morning Cartoon Specials. Pain is caused, building are damaged, and people die. If comics were anything like modern reality, then the moment a child was caused personal and permanent damage by the side effects of a battle with Dr. Doom, anybody in a cape and mask, hero or villain, would be crucified by the media and the public.
With the exclusion of Clor, Tony Stark did nothing wrong. And the Clor incident seemed clearly a ploy to me to make out Stark to be evil. Honestly, it's imbecilic to think that allowing the Government to keep tabs on walking warheads is anything other then common sense.
Too many people don't realize the whole basis for Civil War was the natural and long overdue evolution of the fictional superhuman society, that fact eclipsed to all the bleeding hearts out there because Cap died. I say, let them bleed. And, if you can tell me where that reference is from, I'll be grateful, because the quote is running through my head and it's bothering me that I don't know the source.
[/rant]
The way Luke Cage was dealt with was enough to make me side with the anti-reg.
Originally posted by pr1983
i don't believe that the government has the right to dictate to superhumans, unless said government is composed of superhumans... shield doesnt count imo...i still believe that the best way to do it would be to set up an organisation composed of senior heroes that would deal with any threats posed by evil or simply inexperienced capes...
i've said it before, i'd prefer that it was all dealt with 'in-house'
non-powered humans, imo, have no right to dictate to people who literally hold the lives of thousands of people in their hands every day...
also what x and superherovandal said about the prison and shield too...
i believed that cap was right to go against it, and i still do...
your first statement isn't logical at all. it's like saying that the government doesn't have the right to create laws for white people unless it's made up only of white people, or that it doesn't have the right to make laws for black people unless it's made up entirely of black people.
forgive me for breaking this up, it just lets me respond better... 😬
Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
It isn't a dictatorship... or, it shouldn't be, if Marvel wasn't out to make the SRA look like Mein Kampf.
i didn't mean dictate in that sense... 😬
It is simply people keeping their own lives and security safe from a potentially jeopardizing situation.
so why can't superhumans do it for them?
Non-powered humans have every right to say that they want the government to keep walking nukes in check, superheroes aren't above the law, and if they pose a threat to regular humans, then regular humans should be able to ensure their safety.
they don't have every right imo, because they aren't superhumans... yes, they have the right to feel safe in their homes, and the rigt to be protected from harm, but they do this by trusting those who have ensured that safety for years on a massive scale...
laws were created by humans for humans, you can't apply the same law to a policeman that almost kills a criminal who resists arrest to thor who almost kills abomination after the guy tried to wipe out half of new york...
i'm not saying that superheroes shouldnt be regulated, what im saying is that there are heroes that are respected by everyone, like tony and reed, and imo they could have come up with a much better way of dealing with the situation...
i'll put it this way... save im a hero (yes, try to believe that for a sec... 😛), and i can do all the things thor can do...
i'm not going to let shield tell me to go to the backarse of asia because suddenly the administration decides it doesnt like who's in charge over there... cap said it himself, if the bill passed, washington would be deciding who the enemies are... it happens in the real world, there's no reason to believe it wouldnt happen in a marvel one...
Originally posted by tjcoady
your first statement isn't logical at all. it's like saying that the government doesn't have the right to create laws for white people unless it's made up only of white people, or that it doesn't have the right to make laws for black people unless it's made up entirely of black people.
you seem to be the one lacking logic here... what you said is absurd... the only difference between white and black people is colour, and the texture of hair, trust me, i know this first-hand...
there is a MASSIVE difference between me and a guy who can punch through concrete and shoot laser beams out of his eyes...
Originally posted by pr1983I'm pretty hurt now, but I think I'll get over it.
forgive me for breaking this up, it just lets me respond better... 😬
Originally posted by pr1983It seemed implied.
i didn't mean dictate in that sense... 😬
Originally posted by pr1983This isn't humans trying to control superhumans. This is humans trying to apply laws to superhumans, so that they can be held responsible for their actions, the same as any human.
so why can't superhumans do it for them?
Originally posted by pr1983The difference in there is not between Thor and a policeman, but between a petty criminal and Abomination.
they don't have every right imo, because they aren't superhumans... yes, they have the right to feel safe in their homes, and the rigt to be protected from harm, but they do this by trusting those who have ensured that safety for years on a massive scale...laws were created by humans for humans, you can't apply the same law to a policeman that almost kills a criminal who resists arrest to thor who almost kills abomination after the guy tried to wipe out half of new york...
If Ironman almost kills a petty criminal, and a policeman almost kills a petty criminal, the same rules should apply.
Originally posted by pr1983
i'm not saying that superheroes shouldnt be regulated, what im saying is that there are heroes that are respected by everyone, like tony and reed, and imo they could have come up with a much better way of dealing with the situation...
Originally posted by pr1983Fair enough, but going to war over a law is ridiculous and dumb. It makes a good comic book, but tearing up your country because you're paranoid about the government putting a leash on you is imbecilic.
i'll put it this way... save im a hero (yes, try to believe that for a sec... 😛), and i can do all the things thor can do...i'm not going to let shield tell me to go to the backarse of asia because suddenly the administration decides it doesnt like who's in charge over there... cap said it himself, if the bill passed, washington would be deciding who the enemies are... it happens in the real world, there's no reason to believe it wouldnt happen in a marvel one...
If Tony's a dick, then Capt's a bigger one.
sure but the whole going into an extra dimensional prison without any trial and being held indefinitely is over the top. first of all they're invading other dimension and using it as if its their right. then their's the fact that superhumans that don't comply with the law are held without any trial and indefinitely. lemme ask you. say you didn't have your Drivers license so they decide to hold you in a maximum security prison without any trial till you will get your license. then theres the fact that since you are in another dimension you basically are in the control of the guards since there'll be no way to contest it. plus theres the fact that they cloned a human. Okay Thor's not exactly human but i think he falls under the "illegal-to-clone-list" But since its the govt they don't even get any punishment. what about the pro-regs accountability for that?
Originally posted by SuperherovandalI'm pretty sure this was all already addressed.
sure but the whole going into an extra dimensional prison without any trial and being held indefinitely is over the top. first of all they're invading other dimension and using it as if its their right. then their's the fact that superhumans that don't comply with the law are held without any trial and indefinitely. lemme ask you. say you didn't have your Drivers license so they decide to hold you in a maximum security prison without any trial till you will get your license. then theres the fact that since you are in another dimension you basically are in the control of the guards since there'll be no way to contest it. plus theres the fact that they cloned a human. Okay Thor's not exactly human but i think he falls under the "illegal-to-clone-list" But since its the govt they don't even get any punishment. what about the pro-regs accountability for that?
Originally posted by SuperherovandalMarvel tried to set it up so that the pro-registration side were the devil incarnate, while trying to maintain that the editorial staff etc. hadn't chosen a side from the get go.
sure but the whole going into an extra dimensional prison without any trial and being held indefinitely is over the top. first of all they're invading other dimension and using it as if its their right. then their's the fact that superhumans that don't comply with the law are held without any trial and indefinitely. lemme ask you. say you didn't have your Drivers license so they decide to hold you in a maximum security prison without any trial till you will get your license. then theres the fact that since you are in another dimension you basically are in the control of the guards since there'll be no way to contest it. plus theres the fact that they cloned a human. Okay Thor's not exactly human but i think he falls under the "illegal-to-clone-list" But since its the govt they don't even get any punishment. what about the pro-regs accountability for that?
The concept of registration for costumed heroics in itself is not a bad concept.
Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
I'm pretty hurt now, but I think I'll get over it.
😐
It seemed implied.
well then i apologise...
This isn't humans trying to control superhumans. This is humans trying to apply laws to superhumans, so that they can be held responsible for their actions, the same as any human.
but thats the point, they arent the same as any human are they?
The difference in there is not between Thor and a policeman, but between a petty criminal and Abomination.
i disagree... 😬 people like thor and the avengers make the safety of the human race their personal responsibility... a policeman does to an extent, but nowhere near on that scale... how often do policemen fight off alien invasions or mischievous gods that try to enslave humanity?
guys like thor and other heroes need laws tailored to them... they arent ordinary people... yes they should be accountable for their actions, but i don't think its up to humans, more to the people that personify heroism... cap, tony, the f4, those are the people who should be deciding if a hero has stepped out of line, because those guys know what they're talking about... shield and the US government should have no part in it whatsoever imo...
If Ironman almost kills a petty criminal, and a policeman almost kills a petty criminal, the same rules should apply.
i disagree... iron man has a hundred times the capacity of a policeman to spare the life of a criminal, if he kills a criminal when he doesnt need to, the punishment should fit who he is imo...
They are bringing laws to superheroes. Just because you can lift a car with your thoughts gives you no right to not be held responsible for it.
i'm not saying you shouldnt, my problem is simply with those who would deem themselves suitable to make those people accountable...
Fair enough, but going to war over a law is ridiculous and dumb. It makes a good comic book, but tearing up your country because you're paranoid about the government putting a leash on you is imbecilic.
they didn't go to war, they resisted arrest and registration... yes it got out of hand, but i doubt either side wanted an all out war... and yes it did happen, so they all realy f*cked up...
If Tony's a dick, then Capt's a bigger one.
i disagree... tony was extremely overzealous, the way he just seemed to turn on people as soon as they even tried to offer a different opinion... yes it was out of character, but christ, it was really out of character...
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
The concept of registration for costumed heroics in itself is not a bad concept.
i agree, i just think given marvel resources, they could have done it so much better...