Exar Kun & Count Dooku vs. Yoda - Lightsaber Duel

]Maybe there was something you didn't get while reading Path of Destruction. Really, Styles. If you want to use a certain source be sure that the source itself doesn't contradict your precious ideas.

"Fohargh was better trained than you," he snapped. "He knew more sequences, he knew more forms. But they couldn't save him.

"The sequences are just tools. They help you free your mind so you can draw upon the Force. That is where you will find the key to victory. Not in the muscles of your arms or the quickness of your blade. You must call upon the dark side to destroy your enemies!" (Kas'im lecturing Bane on the use of sequences in lightsaber combat, PoD)

Apparently the lightsaber ability of a certain force user is determined more by his actual strength in the force than by the number of sequences or forms he has learned (meaning his actual lightsaber training). And here is another one from Kas'im to Bane:

"That's what made it such a potentially devastating move," Kas'im explained. "You're letting the Force guide your blade now. You act without thought or reason. You're driven by passion: fury, anger...even hate. Your saber has become an extension of the dark side."

This is after he says that Bane has "moved beyond sequences and forms". And before I forget it, right after this comment, he gives that comment here on his double-bladed lightsaber:

"As you already know, the Force is the real key to victory in any confrontation. However, the equation is not so simple. Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force. The Force allows you to anticipate your opponent's moves and counter them with your own. But the more options your foe has available, the more difficult it is to predict which will be chosen."

This is the very essence of lightsaber combat. First it's decided by actual force power which is the "real key" in confrontation. Only after that the forms, sequences and the other stuff moves in. Hence Bane (because of having superior force powers) did dominate Kas'im in their final duel first until Kas'im switched to dual wielding which flooded Bane with more movement possibilities than he was able to anticipate.

Wow, just wow Nai, I find this VERY hilarious, I offered this explanation to YOU in a previous topic (Ulic vs. Exile) as to why Kun apparently has any real skill in the lightsaber department as compared to the greats, and what did you do? You basically said it was dumb and bullshit. Now your trying to use it...as I said hilarious.

As for your and Kas'im's premise of "the force matters not the styles" thats is only half true as Kas'im himself even makes out:

"Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force."

And his whole premises on lightsaber dueling are all along the path of "hate will fuel you" by his logic any Jedi simply can't compete with a dark side user because they don't have the "option" of powering themselves with the dark side, and we know that to simple not be true.

What also makes this some faulty logic to go on is the duel itself as I pointed out makes it pretty damn well clear that the only reason Bane was able to keep up was because of the fact that he memorized all Kas'im's moves to the point that he had seen literally everything (save for the duel wielding) that Kas'im had to offer in the dueling department. His force power while noted wasn't the reason he won the initial part of the duel.

Now, place those to in the same situation and eliminate the fact that they trained together for countless hours, the outcome is Bane gets wtfpwned as his mind is flooded by the endless possibilities of sequences that Kas'im can generate with his saber. Again anther of his little nuggets of dueling wisdom supports this:

"But the more options your foe has available, the more difficult it is to predict which will be chosen."

Following this path of logic to this scenario, both Kun and Yoda would be unfamiliar to each other and have numerous possibilities that they could muster. However where as there is no solid evidence to show that Kun has EVER seen anything like Yoda's Ataru (based on the fact no body with Yoda's body type even lives in the era save for Vandar and we don't know if ever came in contact with Kun or if he even used Ataru)

There is however minimal evidence that Yoda would at least know what to expect from Exar Kun's DBLS:

Given with the emergence of the Sith and the fact that they're now using DBLS again, Yoda or any Jedi would likely familiarize himself with the fighting form.

Mace Windu despite having apparently never seen DBLS in his life (we've never seen him face to face with one) he manages to wtfpwn Ventress when she busts out a lightsaber stlye completely unique to the Star Wars universe: a one handed curved DBL stlye. He however makes short work of her.

Shado Vao who lived about 170 years from the Golden Age of the Jedi creates a lightsaber very similar to Kuns with the only difference being his is a bit longer, and he wields it similar to Kun: with one hand. He lives in a time where the Jedi are dispersed and there is no formalized training or temple.

Yoda has 900 years of experience, plus the Great Holocron which as the UVG says he's delved into higher then any other Jedi ever. Given with all the evidence its highly likely that Yoda is at least familiar with the DBL style and its off shots. So what do we have? Yoda having some possible knowledge of Kun's style plus force power that was described as a "mountain of light" in the ROTS novelization, all that gives Yoda more "options" in dealing with Kun and making apparent short work of him.

Yet still Bane managed to defend himself until he reached the exit of the temple.

And again there is an explanation to this:

"He knew the layout of the temple, anf he was able to work himself slowly toward a retreat."

He knew where he was going and was moving the battle in that direction a luxury neither combatant has in this topic.

Also anther of Kas'im's quotes serve to undermine Kun:

"You now understand why an exotic weapon or unfamiliar style will be more difficult to defend against, but until you become an expert in a particular style, in the heat of combat your mind will stills struggle to grasp its limitations."

Were given no indication for any source that says Kun completely mastered his form of the DBL saber, if anything were given far more indication that Kun DIDN'T master it:

1.) He had only 6 months of maximum time to train with the weapon, thats assuming that it didn't take a month or two to even create the thing.

2.) He had no superior foes to test or even practice with, Ulic his only among his posse on his level was away busy fighting his war for him, all he had left were his Krath cronies and his few little dark Jedi.

3.) While I'm not sure on this detail, you yourself have said that Kun spent a large part of the time on Yavin during the end stages of the war training his Dark Jedi, that again removes a large amount of time he has to spend training with his own form.

4.) He only uses it against Vodo at the end of the duel, and only uses it to smash repeatedly into Vodo's stick. That leads use to the indication it was used simply to "show off" and not for the actual fighting purposes because the DSSB notes that even while using a single blade Kun was still far superior to Vodo to the point that it states: "he didn't have a chance." Which says basically he could have killed Vodo at any time but chose to flaunt his superiority over him, which fits with Kun's personality, and the entire point of the duel: to show how much better Kun had become.

Follow this up with anther Kas'im quote:

"So by studying different styles, I could negate the advantage?"

"In theory. But time spent studying other styles is time away from mastering your own form."

And what does Kun do? Create a seemingly brand new style thus spending time away from his apparent mastery in the single blade.

Wow. Way to exegerate things. He filled a large library with lightning ? Is this why nothing in the library was damaged but just some of the scrolls / books fell out of their places. Indeed. What an impressive display of force power.

Now thats is a gross simplification of what went on.

Make note this is his first try ever:

"The room crackled and hissed as he channeled the energy of the Force and flug it about the room in great arching bolts of blue violent lighting.

Githany stood at the center of a Maelstrom. A fierce wind swirled around them tearing her hair and the folds of her robe. It rocked and shook the bookshelves, knocking manuscripts to the floor and rifling their pages...The thunder was almost deafening, and the storm was still building."

Its made clear it was a storm and that Bane was only just starting.

And he demolished a 20 story building with a force wave ? Interresting. I hope you aren't talking about the Temple on Lehon because Bane just demolished the entranceway into the temple, burrying Kas'im under it.

Ah no.

"There was nothing subtle about Banes attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Ratakan Temple."

"Bane watched the spectacle of the Temples implosion."

Its made VERY clear that the blast affected the whole temple, with that it also had a the power to liquidly a sentient body.

Thats all fine and dandy, but theres more:

He crushed a full Sith Lord, he made Kaan piss his pants in fear, he survived a deadly poison, its made very clear that Bane was VERY powerful in the force.

This "shitty logic" is apparently shared by Nick Gillard who said that Anakin and Obi-Wan are basically equal with Anakin's only advantage being the Dark Side which makes him a little bit stronger in actual confrontation. We still saw that this wasn't enough to beat Kenobi.

And I care what the f*ck Nick Gillard says because? Even when all other sources prove him wrong? If you wanna go with author opinions and such the take one from KJA:

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

The same Emperor whom of which Yoda is tied with, thus Yoda would easily shit on Kun.

Do you call that an argument ? Yes he tapped into the force and kicked some Vong. I wonder how that doesn't mean he's good with a lightsaber.

What are you talking about? He can't mimic that feat and he hasn't shown any truly superior dueling skills (Mara Jade made him look like a complete b1tch)

Yeah. Logic surrenders to game mechanics. So...effectively...you want to tell us that Revan did cut Bastila down with a lightsaber four times hitting her multiple times with that energy blade which cuts through everything. Technically Revan should have hacked Bastila into tiny little bits if that was the case. Maybe you might want to check the WotC SW RPG, which KotoR is based on, to see what hitpoints (or vitality points) actually do in that game.

We see cut scenes of energy coming out of the Star Forge healing Bastila, there goes your argument, followed up with the fact that Revan (given the LS nature and the love story being canon) didn't want to harm Bastila so eats easy to assume he went for non lethal blows ie: glances, near touches, a stab to the shoulder, knocking her down and such.

What a display of intellectual superiority from our debating ace Styles. Applause. You have finally reached the level of persons I wouldn't even piss on if they were on fire.

And I care about you and your feelings toward me since when now? I really don't give a shit about about you, so you my friend can kiss my black ass.

Wow, dude ? You aren't asking him to proof are negative, are you ? Because that would be fallacious. Instead you might want to give us all insight to the huge amount of situations in which Jerec demonstrated his vast force powers because I can't recall a single one of them.

He had the power from the VoTJ, thats all I need, it alone contained the power of thousands of force users including Jedi Masters and Sith Lords, with that power QU Rahn says he could wipe out life with a single thought, he had numerous abilities and was very adept in force destruction, he was called without the VOTJ as not quite as strong as Vader who is 80% of the strongest Sith ever.

Oh wait...she get's one of her hands cut off when she doesn't expect an attack because of thinking that the guy in front of her isn't able to see or sense her. Hmm.

Thats an interesting view considering they have a conversation and Sion says plain as day:

"I sense you master...faint...weak."

Hmm.

The second hand is taken by an individual that had been noted by several persons to be a lightsaber prodigy. Yet that somehow proves that Kreia sucked in melee combat ?

What a spectacular cop out, finally you acknowledger the Exile. Btw I'm still waiting for your response in the Ulic vs Exile topic but I doubt I'll get one since you seem to acknowledge the fact that your flat out wrong.

Kun:
- killed the TOTJ Jedi Orders spokesman (Odan) with a single force attack
- tooled one of their most experienced Jedi Masters (Vodo) in melee combat
- had another of the experienced masters (Odd) acknowledging that he has no chance against Kun in direct confrontation
- had his Dark Jedi, who were equipped with just a fraction of Kun's power and knowledge, kill another eight Jedi Masters

So may I ask you who do you think was more powerful than Kun during Kun's lifetime ? Because, apparently, the source material puts him above everybody else in his era.

No, thats where your wrong, given the fact that they're are thousands of Jedi in the galaxy at the time and people like Kreia, Vrook (who was noted as one of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy) Kavar, and many others were around, its faulty to simply assume that Kun was the best because he's stronger then what the 11 Jedi where shown? However, I will say Kun is the best we've seen but is that an indication he's the best of the era flat out? Nope.

But let's come back to the original topic. I'm pretty sure that Yoda can destroy Dooku in a lightsaber fight and I'd give him a chance of at least 50 % to take Kun in a one on one fight. But both of them at once ? That's quite a bit too much I guess, even for the uber muppet.

All of my views on the battle have Yoda having to kill one of them to survive without out that he puts up a hell of a fight but dies, you admit he could crush Dooku, so based on that premise Yoda slips away from Kun (which shouldn't be hard as he's faster then three Jedi Masters attacking at once and moves as blurs) and proceeds to crush Dooku, relatively quickly, then it goes to a one on one duel which Yoda would win. Yoda manages to kill one: he wins, Yoda fails to kill one: he loses, simple as that.

What also makes this some faulty logic to go on is the duel itself as I pointed out makes it pretty damn well clear that the only reason Bane was able to keep up was because of the fact that he memorized all Kas'im's moves to the point that he had seen literally everything (save for the duel wielding) that Kas'im had to offer in the dueling department. His force power while noted wasn't the reason he won the initial part of the duel.

Except for the fact that Bane was able to keep up with Kas'im during their sparring bouts, and Kas'im attributed this to Bane giving himself to the darkside completely, and his blade becoming an extension of the darkside. So no, you're wrong as usual.

Following this path of logic to this scenario, both Kun and Yoda would be unfamiliar to each other and have numerous possibilities that they could muster. However where as there is no solid evidence to show that Kun has EVER seen anything like Yoda's Ataru (based on the fact no body with Yoda's body type even lives in the era save for Vandar and we don't know if ever came in contact with Kun or if he even used Ataru)

Given with the emergence of the Sith and the fact that they're now using DBLS again, Yoda or any Jedi would likely familiarize himself with the fighting form.

Mace Windu despite having apparently never seen DBLS in his life (we've never seen him face to face with one) he manages to wtfpwn Ventress when she busts out a lightsaber stlye completely unique to the Star Wars universe: a one handed curved DBL stlye. He however makes short work of her.

Shado Vao who lived about 170 years from the Golden Age of the Jedi creates a lightsaber very similar to Kuns with the only difference being his is a bit longer, and he wields it similar to Kun: with one hand. He lives in a time where the Jedi are dispersed and there is no formalized training or temple.

Yoda has 900 years of experience, plus the Great Holocron which as the UVG says he's delved into higher then any other Jedi ever. Given with all the evidence its highly likely that Yoda is at least familiar with the DBL style and its off shots. So what do we have? Yoda having some possible knowledge of Kun's style plus force power that was described as a "mountain of light" in the ROTS novelization, all that gives Yoda more "options" in dealing with Kun and making apparent short work of him.

Yet still Bane managed to defend himself until he reached the exit of the temple.

Also anther of Kas'im's quotes serve to undermine Kun:

"You now understand why an exotic weapon or unfamiliar style will be more difficult to defend against, but until you become an expert in a particular style, in the heat of combat your mind will stills struggle to grasp its limitations."

Were given no indication for any source that says Kun completely mastered his form of the DBL saber, if anything were given far more indication that Kun DIDN'T master it:

1.) He had only 6 months of maximum time to train with the weapon, thats assuming that it didn't take a month or two to even create the thing.

2.) He had no superior foes to test or even practice with, Ulic his only among his posse on his level was away busy fighting his war for him, all he had left were his Krath cronies and his few little dark Jedi.

3.) While I'm not sure on this detail, you yourself have said that Kun spent a large part of the time on Yavin during the end stages of the war training his Dark Jedi, that again removes a large amount of time he has to spend training with his own form.

4.) He only uses it against Vodo at the end of the duel, and only uses it to smash repeatedly into Vodo's stick. That leads use to the indication it was used simply to "show off" and not for the actual fighting purposes because the DSSB notes that even while using a single blade Kun was still far superior to Vodo to the point that it states: "he didn't have a chance." Which says basically he could have killed Vodo at any time but chose to flaunt his superiority over him, which fits with Kun's personality, and the entire point of the duel: to show how much better Kun had become.

"So by studying different styles, I could negate the advantage?"

"In theory. But time spent studying other styles is time away from mastering your own form."

And what does Kun do? Create a seemingly brand new style thus spending time away from his apparent mastery in the single blade.

[quote"The room crackled and hissed as he channeled the energy of the Force and flug it about the room in great arching bolts of blue violent lighting.

Githany stood at the center of a Maelstrom. A fierce wind swirled around them tearing her hair and the folds of her robe. It rocked and shook the bookshelves, knocking manuscripts to the floor and rifling their pages...The thunder was almost deafening, and the storm was still building." [/quote]
Yet nobody else in the temple heard it... What's your point?

Its made VERY clear that the blast affected the whole temple, with that it also had a the power to liquidly a sentient body.

He crushed a full Sith Lord, he made Kaan piss his pants in fear, he survived a deadly poison, its made very clear that Bane was VERY powerful in the force. [/B]

He was powerful, but look who he was contending with. There was nobody remotely impressive during his time, aside from Kas'ims blade abilities.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
And I care what the f*ck Nick Gillard says because? Even when all other sources prove him wrong? If you wanna go with author opinions and such the take one from KJA:

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

The same Emperor whom of which Yoda is tied with, thus Yoda would easily shit on Kun.

We see cut scenes of energy coming out of the Star Forge healing Bastila, there goes your argument, followed up with the fact that Revan (given the LS nature and the love story being canon) didn't want to harm Bastila so eats easy to assume he went for non lethal blows ie: glances, near touches, a stab to the shoulder, knocking her down and such.

He had the power from the VoTJ, thats all I need, it alone contained the power of thousands of force users including Jedi Masters and Sith Lords, with that power QU Rahn says he could wipe out life with a single thought, he had numerous abilities and was very adept in force destruction, he was called without the VOTJ as not quite as strong as Vader who is 80% of the strongest Sith ever.

Thats an interesting view considering they have a conversation and Sion says plain as day:

"I sense you master...faint...weak."

What a spectacular cop out, finally you acknowledger the Exile. Btw I'm still waiting for your response in the Ulic vs Exile topic but I doubt I'll get one since you seem to acknowledge the fact that your flat out wrong.

No, thats where your wrong, given the fact that they're are thousands of Jedi in the galaxy at the time and people like Kreia, Vrook (who was noted as one of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy) Kavar, and many others were around, its faulty to simply assume that Kun was the best because he's stronger then what the 11 Jedi where shown? However, I will say Kun is the best we've seen but is that an indication he's the best of the era flat out? Nope.

All of my views on the battle have Yoda having to kill one of them to survive without out that he puts up a hell of a fight but dies, you admit he could crush Dooku, so based on that premise Yoda slips away from Kun (which shouldn't be hard as he's faster then three Jedi Masters attacking at once and moves as blurs) and proceeds to crush Dooku, relatively quickly, then it goes to a one on one duel which Yoda would win. Yoda manages to kill one: he wins, Yoda fails to kill one: he loses, simple as that. [/B]

Originally posted by Borbarad
What can I say...

Wrong.

If you had followed the discussion you would be aware of the fact that Styles tried to pass down Jerec as example of a person that, despite of being powerful in the force, wasn't good in terms of lightsaber combat.

Now the burden of proof (that means presenting proof that Jerec was indeed a powerful force user) is on his side.

You're right in the sense that his original claim hadn't really been backed up, and that because he was the one making the claim, it was up to him to provide proof. However, if you actually bothered to read my post while you were awake rather than asleep, you would have noticed that I didn't dispute that, nor did I address it at all. I was addressing labelling of AcStyles's subsequent point on the matter as fallacious, which is what I'll get to now.

Yet he was asking for proof that Jerec was not powerful. And thereby he did commit the logical fallacy: "Because there is no proof that Jerec wasn't powerful he must have been powerful".

Oh wow. You've actually made it quite clear that you understand the form of the fallacy, so it truly amazes me how bad you are at spotting it. In case you need reminding, here's the point ACStyles made in question (the one you addressed):

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
[1]Proof of that?[/1] [2]Considering he lead several powerful Dark Jedi, was hunted by High Inquisitor Tremayne for his power and the Emperor even valued his power. PLUS he gets the VotJ to boost him[/2] yet still gets beat by Neophyte Kyle Katarn. Try Again, Shit Stain

How is AcStyles asserting that Jerec is strong in the force simply because there's no proof that he isn't? Perhaps what's confusing you is how he asked Sexy to provide proof for his claim [1] (which he was perfectly in the right to do; Sexy made a claim without providing proof), but in case you didn't notice, there's more to his point than just that, and he then goes on to provide proof for his claim [2]. He doesn't simply claim that Jerec is strong in the force because there's no proof that he isn't.

Aside of that it would be, in general, an argumentum ad ignorantiam, because of him assuming that his premise ("Jerec was powerful"😉 must be right because it wasn't proven wrong.

Again, I really didn't realise that someone could incorrectly spot the negative proof fallacy to such a degree.

You yourself seem to know that it takes the form "A is true because there's no proof that A isn't true", yet you still don't seem able to spot the fallacy, so honestly, all I can suggest is paying more attention in your argumentation classes.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Wow, just wow Nai, I find this VERY hilarious, I offered this explanation to YOU in a previous topic (Ulic vs. Exile) as to why Kun apparently has any real skill in the lightsaber department as compared to the greats, and what did you do? You basically said it was dumb and bullshit. Now your trying to use it...as I said hilarious.

I said that it was dumb and bullshit because you simply assumed that the only way Kun could have gained some slightest hint of lightsaber skill is via his force powers because he "didn't even complete his lightsaber training" as you put it. This while consequently ignoring that his own master, whom he defeated, served as lightsaber instructor of the Order on Ossus.

Now what is it you want to tell us ? That Kun as a padawan already exceeded a 600 year old Jedi master in terms of force mastery or that the guy who didn't finish his lightsaber training had amassed enough lightsaber skill to defeat the TOTJ Jedi Orders lightsaber instructor ?

As for your and Kas'im's premise of "the force matters not the styles" thats is only half true as Kas'im himself even makes out:

"Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force."

I love how you consequently ignore the reason for Kas'im stating that. Somebody well trained in lightsaber combat can pick his next move from a greater array of possible movements thereby overwriting the force based anticipation skills of his opponent.

Yet there is a scene in the training sessions between Bane and Kas'im where Kas'im pulls a movement out (jumping and trying to strike Bane) that he never used before yet Bane, because of his force powers, was still able to forsee that move and react on it when Kas'im thought he would catch Bane off-guard.

So what do you want to tell us with that "argument" ?

a) Because you don't know what styles Kun did learn (and going by the fact that Vodo served as lightsaber instructor in the Jedi's main training facility this could be basic knowledge in all styles), you can't tell us how many movements he can possibly anticipate.

b) Not that this matters because Bane was capable of anticipating movements that he had never seen before because of his force mastery, meaning that this entire crap holds no ground.

c) Would that premise be another advantage for Kun because, as you might have noticed, he doesn't only use an exotic weapon but he uses it with a unique style which features intensity and length alternation of his blades in combat. Which would give him a broad array of movement possibilities among them the ability to wield his double-bladed lightsaber around like a normal one.

And his whole premises on lightsaber dueling are all along the path of "hate will fuel you" by his logic any Jedi simply can't compete with a dark side user because they don't have the "option" of powering themselves with the dark side, and we know that to simple not be true.

Oh...what a fallacious attempt to use logic. A Sith will use his dark emotions to boost himself in terms of combat. A Jedi can archieve the same thing by resting deep within the force. Demonstrated by Darsha Assent in her last duel with Darth Maul.

What also makes this some faulty logic to go on is the duel itself as I pointed out makes it pretty damn well clear that the only reason Bane was able to keep up was because of the fact that he memorized all Kas'im's moves to the point that he had seen literally everything (save for the duel wielding) that Kas'im had to offer in the dueling department. His force power while noted wasn't the reason he won the initial part of the duel.

Holy crap, Styles.

a) Bane himself notices that Kas'im did hold back in their training sessions, so Bane himself didn't know everything that Kas'im had to offer.

b) Can you please explain to me how Bane was able to drive Kas'im back because logically Kas'im also knew Bane's entire movement patterns inside out as he TAUGHT them to Bane.

Right answer: Bane was superior to Kas'im in terms of the force hence he was capable of driving him back first.

Now, place those to in the same situation and eliminate the fact that they trained together for countless hours, the outcome is Bane gets wtfpwned as his mind is flooded by the endless possibilities of sequences that Kas'im can generate with his saber. Again anther of his little nuggets of dueling wisdom supports this:

"But the more options your foe has available, the more difficult it is to predict which will be chosen."

Lmao. No, Styles. Since the story itself proofs that Bane was capable of following moves he had never seen before. He had no problem anticipating one single blade in combat using his force powers (regardless of how many styles / forms were used). He had problems with a double-bladed lightsaber as Kas'im did explain to him because he tried to focus on both blades at once. That problem was eliminated through the training sessions with Kas'im. But in their final duel Kas'im switched to dual wielding. Because of that Bane now had to try to anticipate the movements of two unconnected blades.

But you still failed to notice that, despite of that, Bane still made it back to the entrance of the temple without Kas'im getting past his defence. Had he not practiced with Kas'im, his lightsaber master would still not have owned him. Instead he would have been driven back through the entire duel with the outcome of the fight (Bane owning Kas'im with force powers) would have stayed the same.

Following this path of logic to this scenario, both Kun and Yoda would be unfamiliar to each other and have numerous possibilities that they could muster. However where as there is no solid evidence to show that Kun has EVER seen anything like Yoda's Ataru (based on the fact no body with Yoda's body type even lives in the era save for Vandar and we don't know if ever came in contact with Kun or if he even used Ataru)

Great Styles. As you're about to spit out assumptions (which follow below) you might allow me to do the same: Why did Yoda use Ataru ? The correct answer is because he lacked reach (because of his small size) and natural agility (because of his age). Do you think that can also be said about a 600 year old Jedi Master who's only around one metre tall ? Yes ? Than their is a very high possibility that Vodo actually used Ataru.

There is however minimal evidence that Yoda would at least know what to expect from Exar Kun's DBLS:

Given with the emergence of the Sith and the fact that they're now using DBLS again, Yoda or any Jedi would likely familiarize himself with the fighting form.

Which doesn't matter because Kun's blade doesn't work like an ordinary double-blade.

Mace Windu despite having apparently never seen DBLS in his life (we've never seen him face to face with one) he manages to wtfpwn Ventress when she busts out a lightsaber stlye completely unique to the Star Wars universe: a one handed curved DBL stlye. He however makes short work of her.

WTF ? So because Ventress uses joint curved hilts she's suddenly using a unique style ? Hilarious. Aside of that some facts for starters: Ventress only received a few years of training from a guy that left the Jedi Order. I wonder how this gives her compareable lightsaber mastery to somebody who was trained by one of the (if not the main) lightsaber instructor of the Order in his time. Then he has, as you confirmed herself, force powers far surpassing that of little Asajj (enabling him to be faster, stronger and to anticipate more movements) and of course he uses a weapon and a style which make him completely unpredictable (far away from just using a double-blade). How easily do you think Mace would be able to cope with that, eh ?

Shado Vao who lived about 170 years from the Golden Age of the Jedi creates a lightsaber very similar to Kuns with the only difference being his is a bit longer, and he wields it similar to Kun: with one hand. He lives in a time where the Jedi are dispersed and there is no formalized training or temple.

I guess you forgot some small differences here. Kun's lightsaber is equipped with ability to adjust the blade length and it's also equipped with the ability to alter the blades intensity from "deadly weapon" to "ordinary light beam". That gives him quite more possibilities to wield his blade around in comparison to Shado Vao.

Yoda has 900 years of experience, plus the Great Holocron which as the UVG says he's delved into higher then any other Jedi ever. Given with all the evidence its highly likely that Yoda is at least familiar with the DBL style and its off shots. So what do we have? Yoda having some possible knowledge of Kun's style plus force power that was described as a "mountain of light" in the ROTS novelization, all that gives Yoda more "options" in dealing with Kun and making apparent short work of him.

Lmao. I guess you somehow missed the fact that everbody who experienced Kun's lightsaber style took this knowledge to the grave with him. Yoda is not even remotely familiar with Kun's weapon and the corresponding style as Kun's weapon is not an ordinary double-blade and Kun's style therefore is not limited to the possibilities a normal wielder of this weapon has. Aside of that taking Kun's own power in the force into consideration I doubt that Yoda has any chance of making "short work" of him. Especially not when having to deal with an expert duellist like Dooku at the very same time.

And again there is an explanation to this:

"He knew the layout of the temple, anf he was able to work himself slowly toward a retreat."

He knew where he was going and was moving the battle in that direction a luxury neither combatant has in this topic.

I think you don't get the point. Despite being confronted with a lightsaber style completely unfamiliar to him that totally flooded his own anticipation abilities, Bane still managed to survive Kas'ims onslaught long enough to get his ass back to the entrance of the temple.

Also anther of Kas'im's quotes serve to undermine Kun:

"You now understand why an exotic weapon or unfamiliar style will be more difficult to defend against, but until you become an expert in a particular style, in the heat of combat your mind will stills struggle to grasp its limitations."

Were given no indication for any source that says Kun completely mastered his form of the DBL saber, if anything were given far more indication that Kun DIDN'T master it.

Wrong, Styles.
Kun was noted to be a "master swordsman" when using a single weapon and it's perfectly stated that the invention of his new weapon and the corresponding style did make him an even better duellist. So he obviously mastered his form. Aside of that you must be quite an idiot: He designed that weapon so how can he not be a master of it. God damn it.

1.) He had only 6 months of maximum time to train with the weapon, thats assuming that it didn't take a month or two to even create the thing.

Which doesn't matter since he, unlike other DBL wielders, can utilize the weapon like a normal lightsaber because he can switch the intensity of the blade to that of a normal lightbeam.

2.) He had no superior foes to test or even practice with, Ulic his only among his posse on his level was away busy fighting his war for him, all he had left were his Krath cronies and his few little dark Jedi.

Which still doesn't matter because, as I may point out once again, he utterly destroyed an "experienced duellist" who served as lightsaber instructor for the Jedi Order with that very special style. Aside of the fact that, by using it, his abilities as a lightsaber combatant were raised up from "master level" to whatever level he reached.

3.) While I'm not sure on this detail, you yourself have said that Kun spent a large part of the time on Yavin during the end stages of the war training his Dark Jedi, that again removes a large amount of time he has to spend training with his own form.

Huh ? He just brought them there, infused some Dark Side knowledge into them by letting them being possessed by Dark Side spirits and then send them off to kill the other Jedi Masters. That hardly did cost him much time.

4.) He only uses it against Vodo at the end of the duel, and only uses it to smash repeatedly into Vodo's stick. That leads use to the indication it was used simply to "show off" and not for the actual fighting purposes because the DSSB notes that even while using a single blade Kun was still far superior to Vodo to the point that it states: "he didn't have a chance." Which says basically he could have killed Vodo at any time but chose to flaunt his superiority over him, which fits with Kun's personality, and the entire point of the duel: to show how much better Kun had become.

Urm. The DSSB refers to their entire duel and not to the part of it in which Kun used his single blade which again doesn't matter since he can also use his double blade like a regular lightsaber. It simply offers more possibilities to him to distract and confuse his opponent so it effectively made him better in the art of lightsaber combat. You can't simply argue around this.

Follow this up with anther Kas'im quote:

"So by studying different styles, I could negate the advantage?"

"In theory. But time spent studying other styles is time away from mastering your own form."

And what does Kun do? Create a seemingly brand new style thus spending time away from his apparent mastery in the single blade.

This is getting particulary boring. He already was a "master" with the single blade. He also mastered the art of wielding two blades. And you simply missed the fact that the style Kun invented was "his own form", correct ?

Now thats is a gross simplification of what went on.

Yes. I wanted to keep things as simple as possible so that even you might be able to understand what I'm saying. But as it seems I didn't make it simple enough for you to understand. I'm awfully sorry for that.

Make note this is his first try ever:

"The room crackled and hissed as he channeled the energy of the Force and flug it about the room in great arching bolts of blue violent lighting.

Githany stood at the center of a Maelstrom. A fierce wind swirled around them tearing her hair and the folds of her robe. It rocked and shook the bookshelves, knocking manuscripts to the floor and rifling their pages...The thunder was almost deafening, and the storm was still building."

Its made clear it was a storm and that Bane was only just starting.

So what ?

Ah no.

"There was nothing subtle about Banes attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Ratakan Temple."

"Bane watched the spectacle of the Temples implosion."

Its made VERY clear that the blast affected the whole temple, with that it also had a the power to liquidly a sentient body.

Ah, well...
"The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble."

Yes. The temple entrace collapsed and then the rest of the temples roof came down. That hardly equates tearing the entire building down.

Thats all fine and dandy, but theres more:

He crushed a full Sith Lord, he made Kaan piss his pants in fear, he survived a deadly poison, its made very clear that Bane was VERY powerful in the force.

Wow. So he scared a bunch of weaklings and killed one of them ? Impressive. He survived deadly poison ? Like Ulic Qel-Droma before joining the Dark Side ? Impressive. Yet still nothing to put him even remotely close to Exar "I own Jedi Masters for fun" Kun.

And I care what the f*ck Nick Gillard says because? Even when all other sources prove him wrong? If you wanna go with author opinions and such the take one from KJA:

Star Wars Insider, Kevin J. Anderson, upon asked if he ever intended his Sith to be stronger than the OT sith: "No. Exar Kun, Naga Sadow and the others are on a firmly lower tier than Emperor Palpatine."

The same Emperor whom of which Yoda is tied with, thus Yoda would easily shit on Kun.

Oh great. What source would it be that proof Nick Gillard wrong, huh ? The RotS movie, showing that Anakin and Obi-Wan are equal ? The novelization that says that they are equal ? I'd really like to see that.

And nice way to produce lies, shit head. That quote is not coming from Anderson but from Tom Veitch and it can't be found in a SW Insider because it was directly given from Tom by Lightsnake. Any more lies you have for us ?

What are you talking about? He can't mimic that feat and he hasn't shown any truly superior dueling skills (Mara Jade made him look like a complete b1tch)

Urm. What ? We see him cutting his way through an entire army of Vong together with Jaina and Luke. But nevermind. And yes. Mara made him look like a "b1tch" by assaulting him in a Dark tunnel when he was unable to sense or see her. Wohoo. And who lived after that duel ? Oh...right...

We see cut scenes of energy coming out of the Star Forge healing Bastila, there goes your argument, followed up with the fact that Revan (given the LS nature and the love story being canon) didn't want to harm Bastila so eats easy to assume he went for non lethal blows ie: glances, near touches, a stab to the shoulder, knocking her down and such.

Which is nice but doesn't change the fact that master in one particular force technique doesn't makes you an uber force user. In fact, Bastila was still a Padawan just in case you didn't notice it.

And I care about you and your feelings toward me since when now? I really don't give a shit about about you, so you my friend can kiss my black ass.

Oh. My "feelings" ? I was merely pointing out that you've managed to expose yourself to ridicule by typing down those lines, kid. Don't take it personally. Your complete lack of education, taste and manners is simply amusing me.

He had the power from the VoTJ, thats all I need, it alone contained the power of thousands of force users including Jedi Masters and Sith Lords, with that power QU Rahn says he could wipe out life with a single thought, he had numerous abilities and was very adept in force destruction, he was called without the VOTJ as not quite as strong as Vader who is 80% of the strongest Sith ever.

Oh he had the power from the VotJ which enabled him to wipe out life with a single thought ? So he wasn't able to think "Die" and because of that had his ass handed to him by Kyle Katarn ?

Wait. What actually happened (storyline overwriting in game happenings) is that Kyle used some wall of light attack against him, cut Jerec's connection to the force off and that did cut Jerec - who had no force powers any longer - down with a single strike. So thanks for proving that Jerec when being unable to touch the force, was also unable to wield a lightsaber any longer. Somehow that doesn't fit your "he was powerful but sucked with a lightsaber" premise, dude because he wasn't powerful any longer when Katarn killed him.

Thats an interesting view considering they have a conversation and Sion says plain as day:

"I sense you master...faint...weak."

Hmm.

The interesting part here is actually that she doesn't even raise her weapon to defend herself. She just holds that vibroblade in her hand and then Sion cuts it off. Hardly proof for your assumption that she sucked in lightsaber combat ?

What a spectacular cop out, finally you acknowledger the Exile. Btw I'm still waiting for your response in the Ulic vs Exile topic but I doubt I'll get one since you seem to acknowledge the fact that your flat out wrong.

Wow. Saying that the Exile didn't pathetically suck in lightsaber combat now means that she would be able to beat Ulic Qel-Droma. One must love your attempts to assume things out of the blue. You should stop smoking joints before trying to debate, kid.

No, thats where your wrong, given the fact that they're are thousands of Jedi in the galaxy at the time and people like Kreia, Vrook (who was noted as one of the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy) Kavar, and many others were around, its faulty to simply assume that Kun was the best because he's stronger then what the 11 Jedi where shown? However, I will say Kun is the best we've seen but is that an indication he's the best of the era flat out? Nope.

LMAO, Styles.
Kun did eliminate pretty much every Jedi Master that we see in the comics (Thon excepted) with apparent ease. So what do you want to tell me ? That there were other individuals more powerful than the Jedi Orders spokesman ? That there were people better with a lightsaber than the Jedi Orders lightsaber instructor ? Or to make that more precise: People so much better than those two that they can take it up with Kun who utterly destroyed people like that.

And you did notice that the TOTJ comics happen roughly 40 years before KotoR ? I wonder how powerful Kavar has been as a child or Vrook and Kreia as teenagers.

Not to mention that Vodo did directly put Kun above Nomi Sunrider who happens to be one of the most powerful people alive after Kun was finished. Really.

All of my views on the battle have Yoda having to kill one of them to survive without out that he puts up a hell of a fight but dies, you admit he could crush Dooku, so based on that premise Yoda slips away from Kun (which shouldn't be hard as he's faster then three Jedi Masters attacking at once and moves as blurs) and proceeds to crush Dooku, relatively quickly, then it goes to a one on one duel which Yoda would win. Yoda manages to kill one: he wins, Yoda fails to kill one: he loses, simple as that.

Oh my. How would Yoda crush Dooku while having to fend of Kun at the same time ? I said that he would be able to deal with Dooku rather fast (seen in AotC and Dark Rendevouz) if it would be just Dooku he has to fight against. Which isn't the case here.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
How is AcStyles asserting that Jerec is strong in the force simply because there's no proof that he isn't? Perhaps what's confusing you is how he asked Sexy to provide proof for his claim [1] (which he was perfectly in the right to do; Sexy made a claim without providing proof), but in case you didn't notice, there's more to his point than just that, and he then goes on to provide proof for his claim [2]. He doesn't simply claim that Jerec is strong in the force because there's no proof that he isn't.

Because he simply passed down the assumption that Jerec was powerful first and then, after asking Sexy to proof that assumption wrong, he came up with something that - according to his view - made Jerec a powerful force user.

So he did commit the negative proof fallacy first and then switched to an argumentum ad ignorantiam because basing everything on his personal definition of "powerful". Which would also be fallacious.

That aside from the fact that in the situation Styles was arguing, Jerec was completly stripped from his force powers, meaning that this entire bullshit didn't make any sense from the start on.

You yourself seem to know that it takes the form "A is true because there's no proof that A isn't true", yet you still don't seem able to spot the fallacy, so honestly, all I can suggest is paying more attention in your argumentation classes.

Urm. Which was exactly what Styles was trying to do here. Or did you see him presenting any proof for Jerec being powerful in the very same situation he was actually talking about (which he couldn't have done because Jerec was completely without force powers there) before he asked Sexy to proof that assumption wrong ? No ? Thanks.

Originally posted by Gideon
In ze words of Scar: "be prepared!" Lol.

RAWR!!!

So this is where Nai spends his time.

Nai rarely posts here, unless it is necessary.

Misunderstanding of the Negative Proof Fallacy.

Misunderstanding of the Argument from Ignorance Fallacy.

Failing to recognise that both Fallacies are one in the same within the context you're using them.

Confusing an Unsupported Claim with the Negative Proof Fallacy.

Wow Borbarad, not bad for one post.

I thought this was a debating forum, not a psuedointellectual pissing contest..

Last time I checked, it was neither...

Right. Your argument is very convincing..

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Misunderstanding of the Negative Proof Fallacy.

Cool. I always wanted to be lectured in logic by a 13 year old kid.

Let me first point out that your take on the actual meaning of said fallacy seems to be limited to the common definition which would be "A must be right, because there is no proof that A is wrong". Which is of course correct but doesn't equate everything the negative proof fallacy consists of.

The negative proof fallacy also refers to the attempt to get rid of the burden of proof and toss it over to the opponent in a debate. Because of that every argument based on an unsupported claim automatically means that you're commiting said fallacy. Why ? Because if you simply hand in an unsupported claim on which you base an argument (which Styles did) you must first assume that there is need to come up with proof for your assumption. If somebody wants to argue the argument based on your unsubstantiated claim, he has to proof said claim wrong first - at least this is what you would expect him to do. Thereby you commited a reversal of the burden of proof and therefore a negative proof fallacy.

Got that now ?

Misunderstanding of the Argument from Ignorance Fallacy.

Again. Limited view on the subject. The "argumentum ad ignorantiam" is commited if one of the people participating in the debate argues out from a position of ignorance. This "ignorance" might consist of personal belief, opinion, conviction or personal definitions. In this case Styles was trying to argue out the rather ignorant position that everybody is sharing his personal definition of the word "powerful".

Failing to recognise that both Fallacies are one in the same within the context you're using them.

Actually. Nope. They are the same within the context you're using them, meaning only the standard (and rather limited) definitions.

Because going by this, the Negative Proof Fallacy would be:
"A" must be right, because there is no proof that "A" is wrong. or
"A" must be wrong, because there is no proof that "A" is right.

The argumentum ad ignorantiam works by assuming that a premise is right because it hasn't been proven wrong (or vice versa) which would be the exact same thing like the Negative Proof Fallacy with the little difference that the argumentum ad ignorantiam is personalized.

In this case Styles listed things making Jerec appear powerful to himself which was enough for him to label Jerec as powerful for all other people in this debate. Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

The correct thing to do would have been to define the word "powerful" first. Yet the only viable definition for this particular situation here would have been that "powerful" must refer to a powerlevel equal to or above that of Exar Kun. And Styles would have needed to present proof once again for the person in the examples he listed matching that definition.

Confusing an Unsupported Claim with the Negative Proof Fallacy.

See above. Can't be done because writing down an unsupported claim and basing an argument on it is equal to the negative proof fallacy.

Wow Borbarad, not bad for one post.

Can't say the same thing about your post which was completely redundant. Sorry.

Firstly Borbarad, don't think people can't see through your sneaky excuses, you can b1tch about not using the standard definition all you want, but it really means nothing when your own words prove you're full of sh1t:

N-Man: You yourself seem to know that it takes the form "A is true because there's no proof that A isn't true", yet you still don't seem able to spot the fallacy, so honestly, all I can suggest is paying more attention in your argumentation classes.

Borbarad: Urm. Which was exactly what Styles was trying to do here. Or did you see him presenting any proof for Jerec being powerful in the very same situation he was actually talking about (which he couldn't have done because Jerec was completely without force powers there) before he asked Sexy to proof that assumption wrong ? No ? Thanks.

So nice try, but your own words prove you're lying, considering you directly responded to the 'standard and limited' definition, and straight up confused it with an unsupported claim.

I'd also like to point out that you're still mixing up your fallacies, this time Argument from Ignorance with Argument from Personal Belief. Argument from Ignorance basically mirrors the Negative Proof Fallacy as you yourself have acknowledged and seem to know, but what you're thinking of however, where you base one of your premises off of your own personal opinion, is the Argument from Personal Belief Fallacy.

[/lecture]

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Right. Your argument is very convincing..

Simply because debating is used in the forum doesn't make it centred around it. In essence, it's a forum dedicated to arena type battles between Star Wars characters, that's it, not an actual debating forum. Seeing as you're hardly an intellectual powerhouse I can see why you'd have trouble with this.

Originally posted by nmensfinest
Simply because debating is used in the forum doesn't make it centred around it. In essence, it's a forum dedicated to arena type battles between Star Wars characters, that's it, not an actual debating forum. Seeing as you're hardly an intellectual powerhouse I can see why you'd have trouble with this. [/B]