iheartpocky's theory survey

wowiezowie batfolk--your wonderful thoughts are definitely on the fly and I am so amazed. Miss Swann, loved your whistling not listening--got a plainasday mind pic of that one. Miz Tigers--you have some wonderful thinkin going on--not my block of the street exactly however, I admire your passion.

Miz Surreal44--you take the dadgum cake in the cause me to drop my jibe category--Will and Jack, Jack and Will, UST(unrequited...)--ohmygoodness!! Well, it certainly explains my overwhelming conviction that Elisabeth be married to both (oh, yeah, for very different reasons of course). 😆 🙄 I am smooth blown away. You made me laugh at my very own self, becos I didn't see no stinkin' forests for the trees. I too love your twisty wonderful post toasties.

Yeah, EVERYBODY wants to be with Captain Jack Sparrow--we'd all be wired weird if we didn't want to be with the purported alpha pirate. Everybody wants to be with the BAD Boy--he can probably kiss for days on one breath, and you wouldn't see just stars, but rather galaxies.

Lovethemtigers--your passionnate nature is a beauty to behold. I am too far into my havecake-and-eat it too ship. I can so understand that it felt like the end. I just feel certain that that's what those beautiful dreams, day or otherwise, are.

somebody mentioned Will watching Elisabeth when she gave her hoist the colours speech and the boy was eat up with burning desire for her--

somebody else said that he protected her, but that's what he does for everyone he loves. Cool thinking that bit.

So thanks all for the rousing provacative thinking and the excellent postings--Y'alls all way fine thinkers which helps me expand mine. MizSurreal44, I shall remain on my toes with you--meant with all respect--you turned out to be an excellent teacher, definitely was a whodathoughtit when you said that to me. 😮‍💨

*bows* I do my best, texgodiva2s. 😉 Will and Jack and Liz...all we need now in that is a bit of Norrington...personally my favorite is the idea that Will and Liz are paired up together, and Jack and James are together, and as a group they all kind of just...er...switch it up. 😈 I do love slash and swinging. Don't you?

Jacksweet, and really all Sparrabethers: In conversations some friends have had with the writes, and my own brief personal contact with Ted, it's clear to me that nothing was ever going to happen with Sparrabeth except for sexual tension. SEXUAL TENSION.

Not love. Elizabeth did not love Jack -- ever. Jack was vexed by Elizabeth. He cared about her, she cared about him, but that's all there ever was. I'm not even sure I could say that Jack was truly, fully and totally in love with Elizabeth. There is no evidence of it. He was willing, far too often for my taste, to use her, and then to use her position as king to get what he wanted.

Remember, the example of voting for Elizabeth to be King was a sign of love? Now recall that Jack read the duties of what the pirate king did. Ah ha. Declare war and parley with common enemies. Ah ha! He needed both these things to happen. He needed her to declare war so the pirates would be out in the open, as per his agreement with Beckett (not saying he was planning on actually betraying everyone, he had a plan), and he needed the parley so he could get back on the Dutchman.

In voting for Elizabeth, he voted for the person who was determined to go to war, and the person he would most likely be able to manipulate --er influence -- more easily.

As I think about the 'good-bye' scene...I think that there wasn't a whole lot they could say to each other at this point. I think there is sadness, but I think it's really more awkward than anything else. These two people are not good with words when it comes to personal feelings. How do you thank someone for saving you? How do you say, "Hey I forgive you for totally killing me"? What do you say to someone that you've had fantastic adventures with and also heart-shattering loss?

You use as few words as possible to convey that you're ok, that you're ok with them, that everything will be fine -- and you don't really say good-bye. And that's what Jack and Elizabeth do. She chooses the right thing to say to Jack. Teases him, reminds him of their more innocent and fun adventure, letting him know that she's ok with him and everything that's happened. He teases her back, and for the first time they both really smile around each other. When she goes to give him that last kiss on the cheek he teases her again, which is funny but also is a sign for the audience to let us know that yeah, Jack is going to be just fine. He doesn't need or want Elizabeth to kiss him.

I concede that Jack cares about Elizabeth, and maybe at some point he felt that he possibly loved her -- but those feelings were laid to rest after he died. He was quite happily going to leave her in the Locker. Nothing that happened in the movie indicated that he was 'back' in love with her.

Last point I'll make here: Elizabeth DID NOT SETTLE!!! You can choose to see it that way to assuage your crushed feelings over Sparrabeth, but if you think about Elizabeth, she never settles. If she did, she would have married Norrington. No, she knows what she wants and she goes after it. In fact, it doesn't even seem to be a want so much as a need.

Everything she does, everything she says can be traced back to a desire to be with Will or because of Will. Everything in her world centers around Will. Man, she KILLS for him. She holds him as he stabs the heart, even knowing what it will mean for him and for her. She would rather have him one day and know he's alive but gone from her for ten years than to give him up entirely.

THAT is not settling. That is not her doing the more honorable thing. That is Elizabeth throwing everything she is into saving the life of the man that she loves. Not the man that she loves most, but the man that she loves entirely, with her whole being.

I think you've made some good points (even to me, as a staunch sparrabether), but I do want to address one issue you brought up.

Yes Jack used Elizabeth, but just as much as he used Will or any of the others. They both used Jack as well, so I see this as rather a moot point (not meaning any offence however 🙂 )

As for the goodbye scene, I agree that they are trying to sum up so much in so few words - they resort to teasing one another, but there is so much subtext. Yes, he doesn't allow her to kiss him, do you think he would be able to resist the temptation of her? He left himself a way out, and was the bigger person (imho).

In addition, there are so many Sparrabethy scenes that didn't make the cut for the movie (I'll post them after this onel). These scenes include a continuation of the goodbye scene amongst others...that one scene in particular called out to me showing Jack's continued feelings for Elizabeth

I don't think that everything that Elizabeth does is just for Will - why, then, did she attempt to kiss Jack again after she had already chained him to the mast? Why did she attempt to kiss him goodbye at the end of AWE? Sometimes I think her actions are strictly for her, I think she still (possibly even secretly) craves to act on selfish impulse.

Scenes from the novel:

when they first meet at the locker)

"Where you killed by the kraken? Or something else? Something painful I hope."
(I will spear u the uninteresting details ok?)
Ignoring his sarcastic welcome, Elizabeth ran up to Jack and threw her arms around him, hugging him hard.
"I'm so sorry," Elizabeth said in a low voice to Jack. "So gad you're all right-"
"Contrition!" said Jack, not returning her embrace or accepting her apology. "very becoming on you. Are you an aspect of my sun-addled brain?" he picked her up and shook her.
"No." Then seeing Tia Dalma, he dropped a stunned Elizabeth and stepped forward.

I those of you who had the first novel already read this but I just thought I'd type up all the deleted sparrabeth moments whether they're only in the full version or not.

Next: when Jack says "we're not back yet." he touches her shoulder. And when Tia Dalma tells them that Elizabeth shouldn't leave the ship. Will and Jack BOTH run to stop her but Will gets to her first.

and also: (parley scene) "Don't be bashful! Step up and claim your reward." he tossed the compass to Jack, who caught it, looking guilty.
"And what reward does such chicanery fetch these days?" Barbossa wanted to know.
Beckett pointed at Elizabet, knowing what impact his statement would make. "Her," he said.
Will was shocked. (were you whelp? When AREN'T you surprised?) Was it true? Had Jack been playing him as well, with his offer to kill Davy Jones? Was it all an elaborate ruse...so that Jack could steal off with Elizabeth? (Oh I wish! So does half the population. Apparently escaping nassau without firing a shot was easy but he can't kidnap a bloody girl!)
Beckett went on relishing the revelation.
"When the cannon smoke clears and the brethren are slaughtered, off he sails on the Pearl, Elizabeth in his arms, and the blame dead square upon his rival." He flicked his finger toward Will.
Everyone considered this. Will was shaken, he wasn't sure what to believe. Jack was so untrustworthy, it was easy to picture him betraying them all that way. But it was also possible that Jack had been misleading Beckett.
Elizabeth was also confused. What would Jack want with her? (I don't want to answer that question) The Pearl she understood, but to take her as well? It did not make sense. (for some reason that is lost upon me he really wants you.)
Jack sighed as if displeased that Beckett had blown his cover.
"Even if that was my plan, he said, "and I'm not admitting to anything-there's not a tinker's chance of it coming off anymore." he glanced at elizabeth and leaned closer to her. "Is there? he asked.

(after a bit blabbering Elizabeth realizes Jack and Will's plan and offers th trade)

There's only one added line in the trade:
"Elizabeth ,love, you're condemning me." Jack said. "Again!"

This isn't JE but it's interesting:
Jack drew his own sword. "I can set you free Jones."
"Have you never loved Jack? My freedom was forfeit long ago."

One of my favorites:
(after Jones stabs Will)
Jack struggled to figure out what to do. He looked down at Will, then at Elizabeth , then at the heart, then back to Will, and finally back to Elizabeth. Rain streamed down her face, combining with her tears. Looking up at him, she uttered one single word, "Please."

And the last bit:
Elizabeth had no idea what the future held for her or Will. Nor did she know what would become of the brethren court, barbossa and most important, Captain Jack Sparrow.

And that my friend is the sad ending to this sad little tale.

(thanks to Tee_Pirategirl for the transcripts 😄)

Well said, tough love. Elisabeth was a strong willed bit of business, no doubt and she was the one who kissed all the men whom she would consider for pairing, with the exception of Norrington--he kissed her.
My oh my, 17-20 real life age and YOU get to pick the boys/men you're going to really kiss. Oh, my oh! kicking
My respect for (and interest in) Norrington skylarked when he bent down to kiss her, masterfully, gently, respectfully, and passionately. Boy had a nice touch with her--not stiff military, but rather a man who had learned a lot.

Passion, passionate--Elisabeth and Will, not a nice couple--but definately powerful. Their children gonna have an uphill battle to put anything over on them as parents. Oh, by the by--someone mentioned wondering if their parents "caught on" about some references to 'luv'--yep, I vote yes they do, since we are all here to contemplate such.

Doesn't mean I won't yearn, long, pine, dream about the witty Jack and him precious Pearl, long as I accept I'm second forever in his heart. Jack gets distracted briefly by his man parts--but his heart is always true, Freedom and the Pearl.

who else is Will Turner like, in what other story--the truebleuOdie? Strider maybe? He has a touch of Jack in him in his devotion to the cause. Any other characters like Will? I'm coming up pretty limited on that list. Help?

None comes to min instantly....let me think on it for a while. I guess Luke and Will are sorta alike...but that's starwars and this is pirates so I traveled a bit far out...let me think...*messes around with her own blank mind*

Captain Carrot from the Disc World series. He's similar to Will. Even Harry Potter is similar to Will. Personality wise, they are all great men, born to be leaders, who don't WANT to be leaders but are forced into that position because of circumstances.

They all have a streak in them that makes them behave more honorably than those around them, but the wonderful thing is that they are all still human. They all make mistakes, judge things incorrectly, and for all the goodness in them, they can still be nasty.

Tomorrow's discussion: the book, the shooting script, and the actual film. 😉 Night!!

LOL!! Surreal you're like a professor or something. (true! Harry and Will are alike...harry had the scar, Will had a medallion...po-tay-to, po-ta-to) I adore your logic!!! I AM rather sleepy so I'll take you on "tomorrow's discussion"..... (although I must say Ron and Will are just a tad alike too...well, will is most certainly not clumsy or cowardly but they both seem to eat their brains when it comes to the girl eh? Even though Will gets over that.)

😛 i like this forum

Who is like Will? Will is a classic hero. He's the boy who leads an ordinary, normal life until a stranger comes to town. It's one of the oldest stories around.

Luke Skywalker
Harry Potter
King Arthur
Lord Bao
Prince Lir

Even Frodo has a couple of things in common with Will. I'm not saying they haven't made Will do unique things. He's a great character and I enjoy him. But he is an archetype.

Jack is an archetype too.

Johnny Depp put a slightly different spin on Jack, but even his androgynous take on Sparrow isn't new.

He's the trickster, the one who shakes things up. He makes a mess of things and then tries to fix it. The typical bad boy who can't help himself but be naughty, but is a good guy deep down. It may be a new combination, but Jack's function in the film is not new.

René Girard states that "the goblin belongs to a type of minor deities that anthropologists call 'tricksters,' [they are] simultaneously bad and good. The good trickster always makes up for the damage that he has done in his capacity as a bad trickster"

Sound familiar? The text above can be found in http://www.cgjungpage.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=717&Itemid=40, an interesting essay on Jung's theories about how the collective unconscious plays into what an author writes, and the connections an author has with their own plots and characters. It's a heavy, but good read. :-)

From Shakespeare:

Puck -- Midsummer's Night Dream
Ariel -- The Tempest

From Mythology:

Hermes
Cupid
Dionysus
Loki

Fairy Tales:

The fox
The cat
(depending which version you read) The Snow Queen and her sister, Spring.
Various Jack's, a totally popular name to give to fairy-tale characters who are both tricksters and heroes.

Extra Credit Discussion Question: Many of the characters named have androgynous aspects but are considered fully or mostly male. Why is it that there seem to be so few examples of female tricksters?

I'll get to my post on the book/script/movie later. 😄

ETA: I have to disagree that Will is completely an example of just an ordinary boy who remains so until a stranger comes into town. Will has already had something of an extraordinary life. The circumstances of his meeting with Elizabeth, his mother's death and his father's disappearance are filled with the supernatural and abnormal.

Will is more of an example of a person reluctantly pushed into the role of becoming great. Outside forces (destiny, fate) push and pull against him and his very mortal wishes; to marry the woman he loves, to lead a normal life, to be a father, a good provider, etc. It sounds boring to most people, but for Will that was his desire, which he had to put aside for the greater good.

Will gets a happily ever after, but it's not the typical one and it is not without cost or sacrifice, something I think many people over-look on this forum.

Oh, by no means am I saying that by being ordinary that Will is boring. He's very interesting and Orlando Bloom does a wonderful job expressing Will's growth and depth, revealing a little more and a little more as the movies go on. But his life up until the medallion hits the water is normal, bordering on peasantry. He's an apprentice, not quite poor, but certainly not rich, with dreams of being something bigger.

Remember King Arthur started out the same way even though he too had supernatural beginnings. He thought that his father died in battle, when the truth was that...I'm so sorry, I can't remember the name but I think it's Uther Pendragon, disguised himself as the Lady Igraine's husband so he could have sex with her and thus was conceived Arthur. He had his father completely wrong, which Will also had. He thought his father had a legitimate career and never once thought that he had been a pirate...or if he had, he was in firm denial of it.

Yes, Jack is the trickster archetype, which is also a lot of fun. It's a unique twist that it is actually the trickster who is on a quest. Jack's quest for the Pearl is as much a focal point in COTBP as Will's is to save Liz.

I'll try to answer your question, Surreal: the tricksters you give as examples are from stories that are popular in the Western world. Greek myths, Arthurian legend, even Norse mythology is prevalent in North America, South America, and Europe. Stories that gave women the role of trickster just aren't as well known. Take for example the African epic of Sanjata. His mother was one of the ugliest women in Africa, the "buffalo" woman, but she was a spirit who chose that form in order to test everyone else's heart by how they treated her.

But it all depends on who you consider a trickster. In some ways, even Cinderella's godmother is a trickster. Yes, she does mainly good, but she is clever and you're never sure exactly what she is. It's not the greatest example, but it does beg the question.

Question for Everyone: Does Barbossa resemble any characters anyone knows? He has such a unique role.

Good morning, learned ladies and bless you thank you, my clever darlings. Now this be some meaty forum for a growing piratess to sink her pearly whites into.

First of all, yes, Miz Willofthewisp, I agree to a point about William being that good guy slugging along until he "follows the rabbit down the hole" and as Barbossa told Elisabeth, "you better start believing in ghost stories becos you're in one." I was re watching for the 100th time I suppose PotC, where Elisabeth's getting dressed that morning, thinking to myself, if she only knew where she'd end up being tonite. I have always adored the storyline you identified. My heart swells with pride when the littlest or least rise to the occasion and become more of themselves than they could have ever imagined. I am particularly in love with the heros that pay such a price that they can no longer be in this world, like Frodo. He bore the weight, he accepted his burden and he was rewarded with being able to go to the next level.

Jack, ah, the most enchanting coyote, the trickster, this is a spot on call about the character. His doings are not malicious and in fact when he allows us to be privy to his thinking about what it is he's planning, he rarely wishes harm to others, but rather seeks the best outcome for himself and his desired goals. He tells Elisabeth that he wasn't going to give up Will for a ship. Barbossa is the only person Jack seems to be dedicated to harming and I don't know that he found revenge to be that sweet. There was that one line in PotC, when Elisabeth asks "Whose side is Jack on?" and Will answers vaguely "at the time?" with this sweet goofy look that says who knows?!!

Now to your Extra Credit, Miz Surreal44, tricksters are mostly male, I think becos, from what I learned a long time ago, they may have a vested interest in some character or the other, but ultimately they will go on about their business, whereas female tricksters have a tendency to get too much into the situation, fall in love etc. The female tricksters are perceived in that classic woman thang as a b***h. Male tricksters get a bye on this putdown. Also, it seems, since the tricksters we are familiar with are long established in historical literature, they are male becos males have the right to move freely in the world. Sort of that whole thing about the victors get to write history. Women just didn't have that power.

I rather think Tinkerbell was a bit of a trickster, she teased Robin pretty much. I'm going to give this one another think thought and add more as it happens.

Barbossa--started out as the bad guy for sure--the man who stole the Pearl from witty Jack. When he returned he was still a necessary evil and then by the end of AWE he was the benevolent (?) mentor/alternate plan B dad figure. Very watered down Gandalf sort--or Heidi's grandfather.

Barbossa became more noble once he became a mortal again. I think he was mightily proud when he was asked to perform the marriage ceremony for Will and Elisabeth. He was on serious best behavior when faced with Beckett's onslaught.

He started backsliding pretty seriously after the big battle with Davy Jones and Beckett. His selfishness in taking the chart and stealing the Pearl again was somewhat surprizing. I wonder if Jack's going to put him down again or not.

Thanks for asking questions that set my mind to racing along. Y'alls good womens, here in this time and space--I appreciate such and hope to be a worthy shipmate. Take all that you can...

And give nothing back! *drinks to it* I agree with mostly everything you said.

Wow! Interesting discussion. I agree willo...Will is a classic hero. By no means is that a bad thing. Will's done a lot of things that have set him apart from others but if we want categorize him I'd say 'classic hero' who gets more tough by the time th story's over.
Has anyone seen Stardust yet? The hero in that story reminds me of Will SO MUCH. He's from a royal magical bloodline from the begining of the story (much like Will who had the medallion/pirate blood from the start and Harry who was a wizard to begin with.) But he doesn't know there's something special about him until he sets off on a quest to bring back a fallen star for the woman he (thinks) he loves (Will's life was normal until Elizabeth fell into the sea and Harry's adventure didn't begin until Hagrid walked in.) Incidently he too has a happy ending different from what he wanted.

I think though that if I had to pick between the so called 'classic hero' characters in movies I would pick Will...he has things that set him apart.

Jack is a classic trickster too, I agree. But I set out on a mission to find a perfect match for all the POTC characters about a week ago. I found a close enough match for Will. Pintel and Ragetti were a piece of cake and I found a few for Gibbs (not perfectly matched but close enough)

I'm having the hardest time finding a Barbossa.

I found loads of heroins who rebelled against soceity and strived for something more. But the spin on Lizzie is that she becomes something entirely different from what she was...the others learn from the expirience and go back.

But most of all I've been looking for matches for Jack and James. Sure I've found a lot of tricksters (han, long john sliver, just a little bit odyssues etc.) but none as ambiguous as Jack. (As Disney excecutives once asked)...is he drunk? Is he gay? Is he pretending to be drunk and gay or is he trying not to look drunk and gay but comes off as that anyway? Is he a fool trying to be a great pirate or is he a great pirate trying to be a fool? Or is he a great pirate insisting he is a great pirate so he comes off as a fool? He told Elizabeth that he wasn't actually going to trade Will for the Pearl but what if he DID have to make that choice? Hand over the whelp and you get your ship? What if he couldn't find a way to trick Barbossa? What would he do?
I haven't found a trickster portrayed quite that way.

And then there's James Norrington. He's brave and noble and still manages to play dirty if the situation demands. I've found characters like him who are so good that some people categorize them as 'bad' (cause some people didn't like Norrington in COTBP...until the end when he showed what a good man he really was) but none quite like James. He's really unique.

I'm sure I'll find them all though. Characters have been so explored that there's a match for almost every character. Tell me if you find any!

Miz Tee, I vote Jack as an okay pirate (very bright, very capable, lazy B - pirate) who had learned to promote himself, someone who knew people who could provide the "cutting edge" technology (compass), who was opportunistic to the nth degree, who had a wealth of advanced pirate skills (sword fighting, sailing, wooing, drinking, plundering, negotating, commandering), who has bought the not judging a book by the cover program. Let's face it, in the way of the world, Captain Jack was not that fierce or huge a man, he didn't appear to be a great lover. Barbossa pulled out his sword, you would hope to be able to run; Captain Jack pulls out a sword, you hope you don't have to perform first aid after he cuts himself, at least the first time you encounter him. After that, you begin to get the whole picture of the man. No doubt in my mind that Captain Jack was deadly. He didn't think twice about putting Will over the side to possibly be drown. He didn't talk about shooting Barbossa, he shot him. He survived Turkish prison for however long it took him to get that drawering of the key and he got out.

Jack's gig like the first dock scene--move on by the lesser ones ( why bother with dock guards), do what you have to do to remain true to your personal code (saving Elisabeth) regardless of personal cost, do what you have to do to maintain your own personal safety/freedom (grabbed Elisabeth and pointed a GUN to her head--okay so he only "threatened" her "just a little", then at the smithy, he pointed a GUN in Will's face--would he have fired, probably not as we find out later). After that, like he said, what a man can do and what a man can't do. Simple as that.

Do you doubt that Jack was a pirate? He didn't get to the point where we met him by being drunk or gay. There might not have been a huge body count behind him, but I believe he had done his share of doing.

As to Norrington, left to his own devices in his own community, he would have been just who he was. His choice of partner would have tempered some of that rigidity, children I think would have sent him over the moon, no Great Santini here. However, after his fall from grace, he was disappointed and sent scrambling for whatever dignity and pride he could piece together. Then, it seems in DMC, that he actually got into the spirit of it with the sword fight and stealing the heart. He thought he could go back to his old life, but found he respected Jack, had none for Beckett. He was connected to his people, Elisabeth, Weatherby, Will, the men in his command, the people he was supposed to be protecting, even Jack. Oh, strikes me that Norrington in one sense could be like the Farscape character who sent John Creigton and Aryn Sun on to life, while he hung back, held up the bad guys and died a warrior, D'a...something.
Thanks, Miz Tee Pirategirl. Isn't it a blast to play with all these cool ideas about something we've been playing with for so long? I kinda feel like discovering that my car toy is really a transformer pirate or something--how trip is that?

Totally agree about Norrington. He was just stuck between being a bad good guy or a good bad guy and then he just created a categosy of his own...neither. But good never the less.

As for Jack...I I agree! yes of course he's done his share of 'doing'. I don't have a single doubt about that but the general audience who think about it endlessly might have doubts about him. Even the critics have different opinions of him...that's why I find it hard to find a character that matches him perfectly. None are quite as vague.

But if I could find a Will and a Gibbs I guess I can find Jack 😄

No two characters are ever perfectly alike. They all have different variations of weakness, strength, fear, courage, quirks, humor, kindness, gentleness....even if you find a character similar to Will, you won't find one exactly like him. They're all unique in their own ways, even if they do fit a specific category.

Will: Classic Hero
Norrington: Tragic Hero
Jack: Trickster/Fool -- and I mean Fool in a kind way.
Elizabeth: Heroine
Barbossa: Tricky here, but Advesary/Mentor
Tia Dalma: Mystic/Sage
Gibbs: Storyteller
Pintel&Ragetti, Murttogg &Mullroy: Clowns/Fools
Beckett: Advesary

I'm out of time, so I'll explain more fully later. Carry on! I love discussions 😄

Me too 😄 perhaps it's because I talk so much and discussion demands talking.

I do agree that no two characters could ever be the same(except for the fred and george weasley who were twins but even they had that slight difference). It would be rather boring if they were all alike wouldn't it? You can't really say they belong in one group.

BTW hats off Surreal...I do agree with every category you picked for each character.
Barbossa is rather interesting. If DMC and AWE were never made all the other characters would still be categorized the same. Sure they'd have long journeys and find out things about themselves they never knew but Will would still be the classic hero and Elizabeth the heroin and so on...Barbossa though would be considered an adversary in COTBP or a 'fun' villain at the very lightest. But with AWE and DMC being made he goes from that to being a not quite trustworthy mentor type character.

One might think that death changed him just a little bit but I really think it was only personal gain. Sticking with the others for his own benifit. He really does have honor though...it's just that his perspective of honor is different from ours 😄

hello, I just erased everything I had written however go to this spot if you please and look/see This person is too cool also check out same one's vid called Friend like me + pirates(that's how I looked it up)Looks for all the world like Jack is really singing some of the song--this person has the good eye as we say in birding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNTxtezSfas

back after all is said and done--love this satisfying forum--my mind what a fun place to play