Moral Relativism

Started by Neo Darkhalen6 pages

Re: Moral Relativism

Originally posted by ushomefree
Moral Relativism is more easily understood in comparison to Moral Absolutism. Absolutism claims that morality relies on universal principles (natural law, conscience . . . the Golden rule if you will). Christian absolutists believe that God is the ultimate source of our common morality, and that it is therefore as unchanging as He. Moral Relativism asserts that morality is not based on any absolute standard. Rather, ethical "truths" depend on the situation, culture, one's feelings, etc.

There are several arguments for relativism depending on the type one asserts, however several things can be said of them all which demonstrate their dubious nature. First, while many of the arguments used in the attempt to support these various claims might sound good at first, there is a logical contradiction inherent in all of them because they all propose the right moral scheme – the one we all ought to follow. But this is absolutism. Second, even so-called relativists reject relativism in most cases – they would not say that a murderer or rapist is free from guilt so long as they did not violate their own standards. Third, the very fact that we have words such as "right," "wrong," "ought," “better,” etc. show that these things exist. If morality were truly relative, these words would have no meaning - we would say, "That feels bad to me," not, "That is wrong."

Relativists may argue that different values among different cultures show that morals are relative to different people. But this argument confuses the actions of individuals (what they do) with absolute standards (whether they should do it). If culture determines right and wrong, how could we have judged the Nazis? They were following their culture's morality after all. Only if murder is universally wrong were the Nazis wrong. The fact that they had “their morality” does not change that. Further, although many people have different out workings of morality, they still share a common morality. For instance, abortionists and anti-abortionists agree that murder is wrong, but they disagree on whether abortion is murder. So even here absolute universal morality is shown to be true.

Some claim that changing situations make for changing morality - in different situations different acts are called for that might not be right in other situations. But there are three things by which we must judge an act: the situation, the act, and the intention. For example, we can convict someone of attempted murder (intent) even if they fail (act). So situations are part of the moral decision, for they set the context for choosing the specific moral act (the application of universal principles).

The main argument relativists appeal to is that of tolerance. They claim that telling someone that their morality is wrong is intolerant, and relativism tolerates all views. But this is simply misleading. First of all, evil should never be tolerated. Should we tolerate a rapist's view that women are objects of gratification to be abused? Second, it is self-defeating because relativists do not tolerate intolerance or absolutism. Third, relativism cannot explain why anyone should be tolerant in the first place. The very fact that we should tolerate people (even when we disagree) is based on the absolute moral rule that we should always treat people fairly – but that is absolutism again! In fact, without universal moral principles there can be no goodness.

The fact is that all people are all born with a conscience and we all instinctively know when we have been wronged or when we have wronged others. We act as though we expect others to recognize this as well. Even as children we knew the difference between "fair" and "unfair." It takes bad philosophy to convince us that we are wrong.

http://www.gotquestions.org/moral-relativism.html

You fail and bardock/digimark proved it, (sorry but those are the only two I have read on this thread)

Originally posted by Bardock42
Sick.

like malaria

Originally posted by inimalist
like malaria
No, that's a sickness I believe. More like eating the flesh of toddlers you killed with an axe.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No, that's a sickness I believe. More like eating the flesh of toddlers you killed with an axe.

possibly

but my street cred hits for 6

sorry if this has already been posted, I don't have time to read the thread atm...

Originally from C.S Lewis
"My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust? If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it? A man feels wet when he falls into water, because man is not a water animal: a fish would not feel wet. Of course, I could have given up my idea of justice by saying that it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too--for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies. Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist--in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless--I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality--namely my idea of justice--was full of sense. Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple. If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning."

Originally posted by willRules
sorry if this has already been posted, I don't have time to read the thread atm...

Haha, and he calls atheism simplistic. Too funny.

"My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust.

Horrible argument to begin with, doesn't prove either really.

But how had I got this idea of just and unjust?

Relative morals and coditioning.

A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?

To what you would think would be better for you or other humans or whichever view you choose to base your morals on.

If the whole show was bad and senseless from A to Z, so to speak, why did I, who was supposed to be part of the show, find myself in such violent reaction against it?

Decent point, which shows the silliness of his initial idea, and possibly moral absolutism generally.

Of course, I could have given up my idea of justice by saying that it was nothing but a private idea of my own. But if I did that, then my argument against God collapsed too--for the argument depended on saying that the world was really unjust, not simply that it did not happen to please my private fancies.

Yeah, should have maybe done it and found a more reasonable approach against God.

Thus in the very act of trying to prove that God did not exist--in other words, that the whole of reality was senseless--I found I was forced to assume that one part of reality--namely my idea of justice--was full of sense.

If absolute morals existed. Regardless of whether God did.

Consequently atheism turns out to be too simple.

An idiot.

If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.

Nonsense. Someone's not very good at making logical points. He assumes that our ideas of right and wrong have to relate to some absolute right or wrong. That's circular at best.

So, I don't know that guy, but his simplistic analysis as well as naive thoughts on the subject of God and atheism make him sound like one of those moronic Christian Apologetics. They usually don't have much standing to start with and then go on to pretend that from this one idea they have they can now talk bullshit about everything else. Pretty sad quote.

Originally posted by ushomefree
gotquestions
Bejebus. I've got a questions.

Why. Can't. You. Post. Like. A. Normal. Person?

You can't even quote people normally? What are you functionally retarded on the DSM-IV?

Originally posted by Bardock42
So, I don't know that guy, but his simplistic analysis as well as naive thoughts on the subject of God and atheism make him sound like one of those moronic Christian Apologetics. They usually don't have much standing to start with and then go on to pretend that from this one idea they have they can now talk bullshit about everything else. Pretty sad quote.

You don't know who CSLewis is? Seriously?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You don't know who CSLewis is? Seriously?

I am pretty sure I heard the name. It was in connection with something dull though. After looking at his wikipedia, I assume Narnia. Also, if that movie wouldn't seem to be about children in a closet meeting a lion and I needed any more reason not to ever watch or read it this inane quote would be enough.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I am pretty sure I heard the name. It was in connection with something dull though. After looking at his wikipedia, I assume Narnia. Also, if that movie wouldn't seem to be about children in a closet meeting a lion and I needed any more reason not to ever watch or read it this inane quote would be enough.

You call his comments naive yet you're barely aware of arguably one of the most entertaining authors of classical British literature????? 😕

Originally posted by willRules
You call his comments naive yet you're barely aware of arguably one of the most entertaining authors of classical British literature????? 😕

I am sorry I wasn't brought up around the same children's books English speaking natives were. And my evaluation of his quote has nothing to with his achievements in the past. Russell or Einstein could have said that and I'd call out the bullshit just the same. All he said in there are most basic thoughts of a High School sophomore and they usually get countered in the following thought by the thinker himself. That seems not to be the case with him, so either he is a flat out moron, or he is, like so many, not able to reason when it comes to Religion.

it all depends on who's right.

if god exists then morality is absolute and given directly from god to the people.

if god doesn't exist then all of our morals are not absolute, just general consensus usually motivated by sympathy or indirect self-preservation

Originally posted by red g jacks
it all depends on who's right.

if god exists then morality is absolute and given directly from god to the people.

I don't agree.

If God created you and gave you a free will, then why would his morals be absolute? Because he can burn you forever?

what need would there even be for morality if he didnt give me free will?

I'm asking why it would even matter what God thought was moral.

well i actually was wrong in my initial statement, cause in my mind i was refering more to the jew god. i guess god could exist and just put us here to watch us run around and kill eachother.

Which (according to belief) God does not do that

say wat

Originally posted by red g jacks
it all depends on who's right.

if god exists then morality is absolute and given directly from god to the people.

if god doesn't exist then all of our morals are not absolute, just general consensus usually motivated by sympathy or indirect self-preservation

Nah, even if God exists morals are still relative.

Though I guess you could argue even if God didn't exist that there can be absolute morals. Not that I would know how, should ask Ush about it.

Originally posted by red g jacks
well i actually was wrong in my initial statement, cause in my mind i was refering more to the jew god. i guess god could exist and just put us here to watch us run around and kill eachother.

Why does it matter if its jew god