Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
If I'm failing to grasp what you're saying then I apologize.
Well, you basically said that "no one does anything creative but for money", which is what I was replying to. Honestly? I'd love to be able to sell enough of my personal art to make a living. That would be amazing, and I'd be able to just work when I wanted and I wouldn't be bound by other people's visions and so on.
However, very, very, very few people ever get that lucky, and unless you are spectacularly amazing, that's more to luck and who you know. The best artist will never get anywhere if they can't get their foot in the door. And getting those connections and that exposure is difficult.
I love designing, but working to someone else's specifications is hard work. I mean, look at GK's avatar. I offered to design him a logo. Simple, green, dragon, looks good in black and white and on either black or white. Sounds like it'd be easy, right? Even that took me something like 7 or 8 revisions before settling on a design that we were happy with; and that was with him being able to show me a sketch of what he wanted. That's a luxury that most designers do not have. It also took something like a half dozen revisions before coming up with the design for his actual name (font, colors, spacing, and so on). In total, probably close to 15 revisions before the final logo was finished.
And that? Was downright easy. That's not the sort of luck I'll always have. In fact I'll be amazed if I ever do again.
http://clientsfromhell.net/ Browse that site once in a while. I love it, and also cringe while reading it.
Originally posted by General Kaliero
This is an incredibly self-centered view. Perception exists, but so does intent.If I perceive a Monopoly board as a stylish hat, that does not magically make it not a board game. Just because you see a game like AC as a stress reliever does not change the intent of the creators, which was to tell a deep, character-driven story. So no, you are absolutely wrong; it is not all about how you personally view things.
This is something I don't particularly want to get into. If you don't mind, can we save this tidbit for another time? I don't really want to launch into philosophical rhetoric, and I'm sure you don't want to hear it from me.
It's an inconvenience to all gamers, actually, because if a single limited view continues to determine how games are made, it all becomes the same thing, gamers get bored, and the industry stagnates, leading to less and less worthy games made. This has actually already happened in the past, and one of the better examples is in fact FPS games. While FPS was first created at some point in the 70s, the genre as a whole had gotten too identical and boring and almost entirely collapsed until Wolfenstein 3D and DOOM revitalized it in 92 and 93. So my concerns are very much based in reality, and are not selfish worries about personal inconveniences.
Those are all personal inconveniences though. By personal I'm not referring to the two of you. I'm referring to a specific group of people who would be affected by that change. The groups of people who aren't affected wouldn't really care. Granted, you can delve into the realm of macro/micro economics and all that, and point out the ripple affect from what would happen if the video game industry tanked.
No people would die, perhaps, but any respect for video gaming as anything other than childish timewasting would, which is a difficult enough commodity to come by already. Your opinion, when shared by the majority, only strengthens the view of video gaming as juvenile deviancy.I agree with you here. It's shitty that so many people think that way.
For the record that's not how I view video games , though I realize that you weren't necessarily saying it was.
What a beautiful ideal. Too bad it simply isn't the truth. I can and do make all the art I like in my spare time, but when it comes to working in an industry, you have no choice but to do exactly what the CEOs of your studio tell you to. And if you have any lofty, artful ideas, you'd best present them as moneymakers, because this is a ****ing cutthroat industry, and if the suits think you're wasting too much time and money, you get booted out on your ass. We designers would love to present and work on our art and package it as a game to be played and enjoyed by all, but when the studio heads see that Decapitation 3000 sold a lot more copies than Thought-Provoking Art Story, they want you working on Decapitation 3001, or else. It's not our choice, it's the only way to work and live on a consistent paycheck.I addressed this in my post to Lana. If you can't survive in your industry then you need to move to another one. That's a ****ed up beyond all reasoning way of thinking, yeah, but that's reality.
This is idiocy, and for an incredibly simple reason: If we game developers get fired, who's making your games?
The people who make the games I want to play.
This is ignoring the self-centered opinion that whatever happens to anyone else is not worth thinking about, which I find utterly offensive in just about every way imaginable.
It's worth thinking about; it's just fruitless thinking. While I see the situation that you guys are in, and I sympathize with you, I also realize that, like it or not, most people don't. So ultimately me sympathizing with you, personally, doesn't really mean a whole lot in the grand scheme of things.
Originally posted by Peach
Well, you basically said that "no one does anything creative but for money", which is what I was replying to. Honestly? I'd love to be able to sell enough of my personal art to make a living. That would be amazing, and I'd be able to just work when I wanted and I wouldn't be bound by other people's visions and so on.However, very, very, very few people ever get that lucky, and unless you are spectacularly amazing, that's more to luck and who you know. The best artist will never get anywhere if they can't get their foot in the door. And getting those connections and that exposure is difficult.
I love designing, but working to someone else's specifications is hard work. I mean, look at GK's avatar. I offered to design him a logo. Simple, green, dragon, looks good in black and white and on either black or white. Sounds like it'd be easy, right? Even that took me something like 7 or 8 revisions before settling on a design that we were happy with; and that was with him being able to show me a sketch of what he wanted. That's a luxury that most designers do not have. It also took something like a half dozen revisions before coming up with the design for his actual name (font, colors, spacing, and so on). In total, probably close to 15 revisions before the final logo was finished.
And that? Was downright easy. That's not the sort of luck I'll always have. In fact I'll be amazed if I ever do again.
http://clientsfromhell.net/ Browse that site once in a while. I love it, and also cringe while reading it.
That first bit wasn't what I was trying to imply. GK asked me a question. He asked, "why should I put effort into doing this and this and this, if no one is going to pay me for it?"
My reply to that, was, "because if you truly love doing it, then you should do it because you love it, regardless of wither you get paid or not."
That's a whole separate can of worms from the idea of doing it with the intention of getting paid for it. I agree with you that it would be great if you could make the things that you want to make, and also get paid for it. All I was saying was that, while that would be nice, as you know, better than I, that's not how things work. And that coincides with my overarching point, this one:
If there's anyone you should be venting your frustration at, it should be at the game makers who are greedy and make games solely for profit, not the players themselves.
So, to reiterate it all in one tasty sandwich: If there is anything you should be mad at, it's the system, not the individual people, because if the system was perfect than nobody would even have a need for money in the first place, and with the monetary incentive gone, artists would be free to make anything that they want to make, and therefore whatever the current "flavor" is (by that I mean, wither people are obsessed with FPS's, or obsessed with something else) will be irrelevant.
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Why do women wait until it's raining and a massive storm is about to hit to go run errands? Sometimes I think feminists really are wrong, and some women just like to be damsels in distress. 😐
Feminists don't claim that some women don't enjoy being "damsel in distresses", feminism is mostly concerned with equal treatment and respect. Of course just like a man may cherish to be looked after a woman may do the same, that it is (or at least appears) more prevalent in women is likely down to the inequalities in society between men and women, in particular the very different ways and expectations with which boys and girls are raised.
Originally posted by MooCowofJustice
I must disagree based on the fact that I can't be happy with anything I write or draw.
Yeah, I think that very much depends on the character of the person.
There are people who are completely in love with their worthless creations and people who will never be happy with the magnificent art they made.
Additionally people like Twilight....so there's that.
Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Why is that? If I wanted to experience a deep and immersive story I would read a novel, or watch a well directed movie. What is it about video games that makes it a necessity to have an excellent plot and good writing? Sometimes I have a shitty day dealing with people and I just want to go home and blow a mother****er's brains out. I don't need a decent plot for that, and that's something that I can't get from anywhere else, aside from actually doing it in real life. So where does this idea that a good plot is paramount to a game being good come from?
I think it's fair enough if you don't want to or can't appreciate games for their writing, but you must understand that many people can and validly do, though I think you know that anyways so the following is more of a summary of my feelings on games rather than an attack on you.
I am with you, at times I can enjoy a story-less, action (or not) packed time waster as well, though often it is the gameplay then that makes me enjoy it. I guess that's here games have similarities with sporting past times.
However especially since video games are different from the traditional ways of experiencing a story (reading, watching) I find their contributions in that way very interesting and worthwhile, even if they may not yet have reached Ulyssesness in its artistic merit.
Of course the best way is when an immersive, exciting gameplay is mixed with a worthwhile and well paced story.
To summarize the above: You have bad taste.
Just kidding, that's not at all what I meant to say, although true.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Of course the best way is when an immersive, exciting gameplay is mixed with a worthwhile and well paced story.
You said it.
For me, gameplay almost always comes first though. First and foremost, a game has to be fun to actually play, the game mechanics have to be engaging, fun, etc. To me, a game with a great story and great gameplay is an excellent game, and a game with great gameplay and a decent/average story can still be a good or even a great game.
I suppose that explains why I enjoyed essentially storyless games like Counter-Strike, DotA, LoL, MK, HoMM, Civ, etc.
And I find games like that boring in the extreme; I like Civ, but I can usually only play it for a day before I'm bored to death.
To me, if there's no story, there's no point to play, because there's only so much of the same thing that you can do with no actual reason to do so before it gets boring and the game winds up collecting dust.
I'm a bit torn on this one. Coming from a RPing background, I am a big story hog, and story telling via a computer game is an extremely interesting medium (and I will attack a game like, say, Final Fantasy if they cocked the story up, as in a game like that I feel the storyline is an essential part of the experience). On the other hand, some of my favourite games, or even games that are not my favourite but that I recognise as being very good games, have had little or no story element at all.
The thing that does bug me is if a game does have a decent story and people ignore it.
The hell happened here?
I leave to go watch Chinese acrobatics, buy silk pajamas, and flirt with Asian girls. Then I come back and you guys are talking about whether a video game needs a good story or not. For shame.
My opinion: A game should have a balance of gameplay and story. If a game has a good amount of both, it's a good game. I.e Oot, FF7, etc. Otherwise, it largely depends on the type of game and the intended audience for it.
And that is the heart of what I am saying, really, some games are mindless action, some are story-driven epics. And there is a place for all, and people ought to enjoy them for their respective purposes and ideals.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
My opinion: A game should have a balance of gameplay and story. If a game has a good amount of both, it's a good game. I.e Oot, FF7, etc.
But that's not the be-all, end-all. Heavy Rain or Mass Effect are actually pretty low-key as gameplay elements go, but it's the self-sculpted story that is the real meat of the experience. On the other end we've got, say, Metroid, where exploratory gameplay is the draw and story is rather barebones.
There are worthwhile games in all positions on the spectrum. My issue is in playing them all from the perspective of one end.
Originally posted by General Kaliero
And that is the heart of what I am saying, really, some games are mindless action, some are story-driven epics. And there is a place for all, and people ought to enjoy them for their respective purposes and ideals.E.G. AC2/Brotherhood, PoP, BioShock, Arkham Asylum, etc. Games with good, involved gameplay as well as a deep, excellent story.
But that's not the be-all, end-all. Heavy Rain or Mass Effect are actually pretty low-key as gameplay elements go, but it's the self-sculpted story that is the real meat of the experience. On the other end we've got, say, Metroid, where exploratory gameplay is the draw and story is rather barebones.
There are worthwhile games in all positions on the spectrum. My issue is in playing them all from the perspective of one end.
Of course. If a game looks great, sounds great, plays great, and has a great story, it's a great game. It proves that the game wasn't just a lazily put together cash in.
But not everything works for all games. If they took a Final Fantasy like story and put it into a Pokemon game, I couldn't play it. It wouldn't be what I'd want in a Pokemon game.
So I guess the moral of the story is all games work well with different balances of factors that make a great game. Opinions just differ on factors that people like.
Now, can everyone stfu so I can tell you that silk pajamas are awesome?
Originally posted by TheAuraAngelBut Pokemon has AWESOME stories.
Of course. If a game looks great, sounds great, plays great, and has a great story, it's a great game. It proves that the game wasn't just a lazily put together cash in.But not everything works for all games. If they took a Final Fantasy like story and put it into a Pokemon game, I couldn't play it. It wouldn't be what I'd want in a Pokemon game.
So I guess the moral of the story is all games work well with different balances of factors that make a great game. Opinions just differ on factors that people like.
Now, can everyone stfu so I can tell you that silk pajamas are awesome?
Pft pajamas? Real men wear nothing but the prodigious hair that blankets their sweaty bodies to bed.
Originally posted by NemeBro
But Pokemon has AWESOME stories.Pft pajamas? Real men wear nothing but the prodigious hair that blankets their sweaty bodies to bed.
But they don't resemble Final Fantasy soap operas now do they? 😉
And the cute Asian girl at the counter picked them out for me. And helped me change into them. 😛
?
Originally posted by TheAuraAngelAre you sure that was a girl? With dem azns you can never be sure.
But they don't resemble Final Fantasy soap operas now do they? 😉And the cute Asian girl at the counter picked them out for me. And helped me change into them. 😛
Well now that I've got my daily racist statement out of the way, off to fap.
Originally posted by NemeBro
I am listening to Dancing Queen and both my mother and sister can see me doing so.
Originally posted by Bardock42
Feminists don't claim that some women don't enjoy being "damsel in distresses", feminism is mostly concerned with equal treatment and respect. Of course just like a man may cherish to be looked after a woman may do the same, that it is (or at least appears) more prevalent in women is likely down to the inequalities in society between men and women, in particular the very different ways and expectations with which boys and girls are raised.
Leave me alone, damn it!