Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Disagreed, doing things for selfish reasons doesn't make you in any way a better or more interesting character, just a different kind, and being a hero and being courageous are very different. Ever read any of Ciaphas Cain's novels? Link is very brave, and his ability to NOT emo it up should be legendary considering he's one of the characters who gets the most thoroughly shit on through out his career.Link's choices to not reflect somethign so simple and one dimensional as "brave gai with no emotions". Otherwise, he would have just told Mido who he was, or probably even said **** it to saving the world. Link is an insane stoic, and a lot deeper of a character than peopel credit him for due to his lack of dialogue.
Except for the fact that doing something, anything for his own selfish reason would actually give a character...well, a character. And of course Link is freaking brave. Triforce of Courage and all that jazz sorta proves that he is courageous. So? The gais in Call of Duty games are brave and put up with shit. Doesn't make them great or interesting characters.
Or he just realized, how much help could Mido be? Why should I tell him who I really am? What do I gain from it? And no, again, he is hotwired to save the world. It's his job. He can't rightfully say no to it.
Originally posted by Ridley_Prime
Point is, you guys need to make me a sandwich.
Here ya go.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Except for the fact that doing something, anything for his own selfish reason would actually give a character...well, a character. And of course Link is freaking brave. Triforce of Courage and all that jazz sorta proves that he is courageous. So? The gais in Call of Duty games are brave and put up with shit. Doesn't make them great or interesting characters.Or he just realized, how much help could Mido be? Why should I tell him who I really am? What do I gain from it? And no, again, he is hotwired to save the world. It's his job. He can't rightfully say no to it.
Here ya go.
Verily, saving the world doesn't give you a personality. Just look at Eragon/[insert terrible protagonist here].
Originally posted by Nephthys
Verily, saving the world doesn't give you a personality. Just look at Eragon/[insert terrible protagonist here].
I actually don't think Eragon is that bad...he has a personality...on occasion...rare occasions....okay, so he wants to get laid and that's pretty much it.
That and his whole wanting vengeance in the first book should count for something....didn't last though.
Except for the fact that doing something, anything for his own selfish reason would actually give a character...well, a character. And of course Link is freaking brave. Triforce of Courage and all that jazz sorta proves that he is courageous. So? The gais in Call of Duty games are brave and put up with shit. Doesn't make them great or interesting characters.Or he just realized, how much help could Mido be? Why should I tell him who I really am? What do I gain from it? And no, again, he is hotwired to save the world. It's his job. He can't rightfully say no to it.
He isn't "hotwired" to save the world, he chooses to. He could easily have said no at any point, he spends a lot of OoT doing things he doesn't have to, unnecessary shit that show us his character. Coming back to Mido, just telling him "It's me, Link, move.", or barrelling past him would have been easier than playing dumb. When he reaches the forest meadow, and Saria is gone, he's obviously effected, pardon 1998 for not having a great ability to move his facial muscles. 😬
How about when he goes to Death mountain and cheers up the crying Goron named after him? He didn't /have/ to do that, he chose to. If we follow him to Termina, this becomes a lot more apparent. Half of MM is Link trying to save people he doesn't have to, he doesn't even need to stop the moon if he doesn't want to. And yet he travels across the land, reliving the same three days over and over trying to save everyone, healing wounded souls, and trying to give everyone their happy ending. That is not a lack of character. 😐 It's a lot more depth than most characters have infact, and is an unusual thing to see. Link probably has a complex or something considering his actions in MM.
I actually don't think Eragon is that bad...he has a personality...on occasion...rare occasions....okay, so he wants to get laid and that's pretty much it.That and his whole wanting vengeance in the first book should count for something....didn't last though.
Heh, a lot of people actually fantheorise that Eragon's a legitimate sociopath. Which actually makes him a much more interesting character if true. I just picked him becuase I couldn't remember many other terrible protagonists.
http://www.oak-tree.us/blog/index.php/2009/01/21/brisingr-sociopath
http://impishidea.com/criticism/364/on-eragon-the-sociopath
http://eragon-sporkings.wikispaces.com/eragon_sporkings_page - A really good read through.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Misconception. He gains the ToC because he is courageous, he is not courageous becuase he has the ToC, and no, he is not hardwired, he does have choices to make, the ones he makes show his character.He isn't "hotwired" to save the world, he chooses to. He could easily have said no at any point, he spends a lot of OoT doing things he [b]doesn't have to
, unnecessary shit that show us his character. Coming back to Mido, just telling him "It's me, Link, move.", or barrelling past him would have been easier than playing dumb. When he reaches the forest meadow, and Saria is gone, he's obviously effected, pardon 1998 for not having a great ability to move his facial muscles. 😬How about when he goes to Death mountain and cheers up the crying Goron named after him? He didn't /have/ to do that, he chose to. If we follow him to Termina, this becomes a lot more apparent. Half of MM is Link trying to save people he doesn't have to, he doesn't even need to stop the moon if he doesn't want to. And yet he travels across the land, reliving the same three days over and over trying to save everyone, healing wounded souls, and trying to give everyone their happy ending. That is not a lack of character. 😐 It's a lot more depth than most characters have infact, and is an unusual thing to see. Link probably has a complex or something considering his actions in MM. [/B]
*yawn*
Yes, continue to bring me evidence that Link is a nice and brave guy. Evidence which doesn't make him an interesting character in the slightest.
Though, Minish Cap Link has shown embarrassment before(while being a nice guy at the time, but whatever). This is a legitimate trait that can make a character easy to relate to. Not necessarily interesting though.
So yeah, if you continue to tell me evidence of Link being a nice guy, it won't change anyone's mind. This isn't a sandbox character like Cole, who has quite a lot of choices. Link does these good things because he is the hero and it is required for the Hero to be the nice guy.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
*yawn*Yes, continue to bring me evidence that Link is a nice and brave guy. Evidence which doesn't make him an interesting character in the slightest.
Though, Minish Cap Link has shown embarrassment before(while being a nice guy at the time, but whatever). This is a legitimate trait that can make a character easy to relate to. Not necessarily interesting though.
So yeah, if you continue to tell me evidence of Link being a nice guy, it won't change anyone's mind. This isn't a sandbox character like Cole, who has quite a lot of choices. Link does these good things because he is the hero and it is required for the Hero to be the nice guy.
The only reason Majora's Mask even happens is because his life was so thoroughly ruined by the events of OoT. He sets off to try and recover Navi to atleast have back a small part of something, which makes a great deal of sense considering all he sacrificed. 😐
Hell, one recurring theme in Majora's Mask is that it is /impossible/ to save everyone. No matter what you do, you simply can't, which if you ask me, is the perfect way to **** with someone who's established character is trying to do exactly that.
By the logic that he's "just a hero doing what a hero does", so then is any protagonist just a "___ doing what a ___ does", since the game is built around him doing shit.
No, becuase in most cases we can actually get motivations and insights into their character through diologue and how they react and relate to other characters and the world around them. They're 'a hero doing what a hero does because...'. Since we have no insight into his motivations beyond 'save the world just cuz' we can only assume that he's doing it because he's the selfless hero. This is one of the massive failings of a silent protagonist.
Although I don't play LOZ games so you can ignore me if you want to. 🙁
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
This is a flawed argument and a preconceived notion because being the hero does not mean you have to do these things, and OoT/MM Link showed embarrassment as well as fear, and emotional awkwardness. Being brave and /selfless/ is very interesting in today's sea of dull-grey and brown "anti-heroes". You're missing the point that Link has choices, and his choices define his character. By the logic that he's "just a hero doing what a hero does", so then is any protagonist just a "___ doing what a ___ does", since the game is built around him doing shit. Is Kratos any less of a sociopath for doing the things he does for the sake of the game's existance? No. Is Link any less a selfless character with balls of steel because he was designed to be? No. And he's not just brave and nice, the dude is fairly obviously damaged. 😐The only reason Majora's Mask even happens is because his life was so thoroughly ruined by the events of OoT. He sets off to try and recover Navi to atleast have back a small part of something, which makes a great deal of sense considering all he sacrificed. 😐
Hell, one recurring theme in Majora's Mask is that it is /impossible/ to save everyone. No matter what you do, you simply can't, which if you ask me, is the perfect way to **** with someone who's established character is trying to do exactly that.
Yet you chose to avoid mentioning traits like Link's embarrassment and fear in favor of continuing to tell me of all nice things Link has done? Werid.
I especially like this part.
Being brave and /selfless/ is very interesting in today's sea of dull-grey and brown "anti-heroes".
I lol'd. Link is just as brave as the guys from COD. Making him about as interesting.
Originally posted by Nephthys
No, becuase in most cases we can actually get motivations and insights into their character through diologue and how they react and relate to other characters and the world around them. They're 'a hero doing what a hero does because...'. Since we have no insight into his motivations beyond 'save the world just cuz' we can only assume that he's doing it because he's the selfless hero. This is one of the massive failings of a silent protagonist.Although I don't play LOZ games so you can ignore me if you want to. 🙁
I agree. Also, read one of the Eragon essays. One part is a little out of context, but it's very funny. Going to read the others.
Originally posted by NephthysHe didn't set out to do that. Originally he was just carrying out the Deku trees wishes, and then he got dragged into it, in OoT.
No, becuase in most cases we can actually get motivations and insights into their character through diologue and how they react and relate to other characters and the world around them. They're 'a hero doing what a hero does because...'. Since we have no insight into his motivations beyond 'save the world just cuz' we can only assume that he's doing it because he's the selfless hero. This is one of the massive failings of a silent protagonist.Although I don't play LOZ games so you can ignore me if you want to. 🙁
in WW, his sister is his motivation, and in TP he starts out mostly concerned with the children of Ordon village.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Yet you chose to avoid mentioning traits like Link's embarrassment and fear in favor of continuing to tell me of all nice things Link has done? Werid.I especially like this part.
I lol'd. Link is just as brave as the guys from COD. Making him about as interesting.
I agree. Also, read one of the Eragon essays. One part is a little out of context, but it's very funny. Going to read the others.
A mindless uninteresting character doesn't run all over a country trying to reunite doomed lovers, take up the burden of fallen heroes, or soothe the emotions of lonely old drunks while the moon is on it's way to crash into the planet, or go back in time over and over to do so.
Also, no, the guys from CoD would shit their freakin' pants in the Shadow temple, or Ikana canyon.
Anti hero is a broad term that can be used on any character. It simply means flawed character with some vilianistic traits but in every sense a hero.(atleast that's what I remember it)
What makes an possible anti hero interesting is the fact they can evolve to being an hero by overcoming a flaw. No all anti heroes are the "Batlame or Angry Punisher" Spiderman and some of the Marvel Characters like Thor and Captain America have anti hereos while being in pure definition a hero in a sense.
Captain America is a man from the past struggling in a Future America where morals are more ambiguous and the changing American values. Thor is a god struggling in a scientific world.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Gross over simplification for the win? Thanks for ignoring most of my post. 😐 Being somewhat stoic doesn't make you less interesting, infact, it's a great deal better than spending all game bawing. Through out OoT and MM alone, Link displays
Sadness, remorse, determination, selflessness, surprise, fear, compassion, embarrassment, and canonicly sexual tension when Cremia pushes his face into her chest as an easter egg. O-oA mindless uninteresting character doesn't run all over a country trying to reunite doomed lovers, take up the burden of fallen heroes, or soothe the emotions of lonely old drunks while the moon is on it's way to crash into the planet, or go back in time over and over to do so.
Also, no, the guys from CoD would shit their freakin' pants in the Shadow temple, or Ikana canyon.
Eh, next time make your posts more interesting and I won't ignore it. It simplifies itself.
Sadness, remorse, determination, selflessness, surprise, fear, compassion, embarrassment, and canonicly sexual tension when Cremia pushes his face into her chest as an easter egg. O-o
The terms in bold are the one that would actually prove he is more than one dimensioned. The rest are worthless.
Sora, a character that is fairly cliche, does not spend the entire game bawling, is upbeat for the majority of the time, and he is a far better character than Link. So, yeah, not defending emo dudes like Squall.
And still, Link's bravery=COD gais bravery.
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Eh, next time make your posts more interesting and I won't ignore it. It simplifies itself.The terms in bold are the one that would actually prove he is more than one dimensioned. The rest are worthless.
Sora, a character that is fairly cliche, does not spend the entire game bawling, is upbeat for the majority of the time, and he is a far better character than Link. So, yeah, not defending emo dudes like Squall.
And still, Link's bravery=COD gais bravery.
Oh, cool, you mean those bolded ones he has actually shown? That's preee bawss, looks like he's not so one dimensional after all.
Do you have anything to show Sora is in anyway a more interesting character? I think being a shell-shocked ten year old stoic is pretty interesting.
And as I said, no, COD gais would void their bowels in the Forest temple, let alone the Well.
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
IE, you have no answer to the points I'm making? 131Oh, cool, you mean those bolded ones he has actually shown? That's preee bawss, looks like he's not so one dimensional after all.
Do you have anything to show Sora is in anyway a more interesting character? I think being a shell-shocked ten year old stoic is pretty interesting.
And as I said, no, COD gais would void their bowels in the Forest temple, let alone the Well.
IE, running around doing nice things=/= development or interesting characters. Doesn't need to be answered.
Suppose so. But it's ironic that these instances where Link shows real development are a second thought to the moments where Link does nice gai things. I'll call him 1 1/2 dimensional since I'm sure most of these instances are glanced over typically.
Sora displays jealousy, pride, romantic feelings, embarrassment, curiosity, partial greed, desire, laziness, surprise, fear, and courage....all in the first 25 minutes or so of the game. Never mind his actual development throughout the game. 😐
Proof?
Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Annoying characters can still be in a sense, "great" characters.Roxas is okay as a character because he displays emotions like anger and sadness and guilt. Which serves a purpose because since he is a nobody, he shouldn't be able to show any emotion. At all. Near as I can tell, Roxas being able to display emotions is supposed to hint at a more special power Sora has. It's also meant to show that Roxas is quite different from the other nobodies.
So as a character, Roxas works very well. And again, fans love him.
Fans are idiots, namely the fangirls.
Apply this logic to the rest of Organization 13 and they are also great characters. Including the suck that is Axel, the ***** that is Larxene, the lame that is Saix.
Roxas probably can't even display emotion. His are just about as lifelike as the ones Axel shows, and even Xigbar. Vexen feigned rage and surprise pretty well, if I recall. And so did Demyx and Zexion.