Woohoo, official off-topic thread!

Never played 1-3. FF4 was not that great. Crap plot, crap characters, okay battle system, bluh bluh crap.

FF5 actually is, playing it now and the characters are some of the most likable in any FF game.

Never played 6 but heard its one of the best.

Played 7 when I was young. Was fun.

8 has really nice characters and plot (apart from the final disk), I seem to be one of the few who actually like Squall, but positively crippling gameplay and other flaws. **** draw.

9 is extremely good overall. Very little flaws and great characters, plot, gameplay etc.

10 had some of the best gameplay and plot, a few good characters (Rikku, Auron and Yuna), a few shitty ones (Tidus), with a unique and interesting world and Blitzball. I love Blitzball.

X-2 is underrated.

12 was crap. The battle system was really good. Everything else was shit.

It's not possible to underrate the shit that is X-2.

VIII is almost as bad.

VII is ridiculously overrated when it's actually an incredibly mediocre game with bland, flat characters and a plot literally made of a chain of cliches, mixed with big doses of intentional confusion.

V and VI are two of the best, though. V is just fun, and VI was when they srs'd with the storyline and did something great with the characters.

Tidus is actually not a shitty character. He is a very, very well-created character. Just annoying. He does, however, undergo some serious character development over the course of the game and winds up willingly sacrifices his existence for Sin's permanent destruction.

Do not confuse "he annoyed me" with "he's a poorly created character". Yuna is definitely a worse character than Tidus.

VIII did not have very good characters. With the exception of Irvine, Quistis, and Edea they are all extremely two-dimensional; by the end everyone's a Squall-cheerleader (Quistis, you disappointed me). Meanwhile Squall is one of the worst characters to grace an FF. He's not an antihero, he's just a whiny, petulant child. Not someone I would want to leave the fate of the world to. He's got almost no redeeming qualities at all. The romance subplot pretty much came out of nowhere and it never seemed that Squall cared about Rinoa at all, and in-game Rinoa's just annoying so there's no emotional connect between the player and the lead characters at all.

And yes, it's not possible to underrate FFX-2.

IX is good, however, the gameplay is as slow as frozen molasses and I was put off for that reason. Couldn't get past the first disc, because normal encounters were taking as long as boss fights did in other FF games (and yes, it was because of the ATB).

Tidus is actually not a shitty character. He is a very, very well-created character. Just annoying. He does, however, undergo some serious character development over the course of the game and winds up willingly sacrifices his existence for Sin's permanent destruction.

Do not confuse "he annoyed me" with "he's a poorly created character". Yuna is definitely a worse character than Tidus.

While he may not be a poorly-created character, and I agree that he manages to be 3-D, a protagonist who annoys me is what I'd call a poorly executed character. He is the character we follow throughout the story and is supposed to be the one we relate to. As he constantly says, 'this is my story' and him being a focus in such a way is a major detrament as a whole. Having 'depth' does not make one a good character, as Tidus completely fails in his narrative role, other than in his purpose of being an idiot who needs things explained to him. He is very good at the 'fish out of water' schtick. But thats about it.

A main character who gets switched out of the party at first notice is not a good one imo.

P.S. Yuna is awesome.

Except that's the thing. He's not annoying throughout the entire game; he grows up and matures as he realizes how things are in Spira. The only way he can really continue to annoy you past the halfway point of the game is if you don't like cheery, optimistic people. He goes from irritating and self-centered to completely selfless and loyal to his friends, willing to go to any odds to protect Yuna, and doing just that. That is a well-executed character, because you can clearly see these changes through the course of the game.

And that's why I love the ending of FFX so much - it's an amazingly beautiful, emotional ending, but it's not necessarily a happy one. It's very bittersweet. It's not the typical "girl and boy fall in love and live happily ever after" ending. There was no way for there to be a faerie tale happy ending in that game. And that is also part of why I'm no fan of X-2 (beyond Lenne and some of the costume designs), and will not generally acknowledge the existence of the good/perfect endings.

I used to hate Tidus. Haaaaate. However, looking back and thinking of how they told the story in the game, and how he did change...while he is not my favorite character still, they did do a very good job with showing how being in Spira changed him.

Yuna...she did mature eventually, and she did have a rather large stubborn streak, but it annoyed me that we're relying on someone to save the world, who has the backbone of a limp noodle and relies so fully on everyone else to make decisions for her. However, she did step up and mature and undergo some development and growth.

However, the best characters were the 'side' characters - Lulu, Auron, and Rikku. And don't even start me on how they destroyed Rikku's characterization in FFX-2...

Originally posted by General Kaliero
It's not possible to underrate the shit that is X-2.

VIII is almost as bad.

VII is ridiculously overrated when it's actually an incredibly mediocre game with bland, flat characters and a plot literally made of a chain of cliches, mixed with big doses of intentional confusion.

V and VI are two of the best, though. V is just fun, and VI was when they srs'd with the storyline and did something great with the characters.

How is VII cliched?

Spoiler:
That Cloud's memories had been intertwined with Zach's and that he largely believed himself to essentially be a different person with a different history was a very unique take on the basic amnesia story. Not to mention the basic setup where you have a group of what are essentially environmental terrorists fighting for the planet, as well as the tragic death of the love interest in Aerith which was pretty rare in that type of videogame storyline.

Everything?

The only thing tragic about Aeris is that you lost a valuable game resource that you wasted time levelling up.

Everything what?

You asked what was unique/differentiated about AC2.

I answered the question.

Anything specific?

Based on what people are saying about AC2 it is very heavily driven by its main character, Ezio, and in the lifetime achievement thread everything Kaliero presented about the character and his role in the storyline was pretty generic stuff. I'm sure its execution may have been great among other things but I have a feeling that there was nothing particularly differentiated or unique about it, which was most certainly the case for Final Fantasy VII, yet people commonly refer to that as generic.

AC2's story isn't all that great. 😬

someone killed your dad so we should kill him right back stuffs happening in the future the entire ezio story is pointless PLOT!

Except that's the thing. He's not annoying throughout the entire game; he grows up and matures as he realizes how things are in Spira. The only way he can really continue to annoy you past the halfway point of the game is if you don't like cheery, optimistic people. He goes from irritating and self-centered to completely selfless and loyal to his friends, willing to go to any odds to protect Yuna, and doing just that. That is a well-executed character, because you can clearly see these changes through the course of the game.

And that's why I love the ending of FFX so much - it's an amazingly beautiful, emotional ending, but it's not necessarily a happy one. It's very bittersweet. It's not the typical "girl and boy fall in love and live happily ever after" ending. There was no way for there to be a faerie tale happy ending in that game. And that is also part of why I'm no fan of X-2 (beyond Lenne and some of the costume designs), and will not generally acknowledge the existence of the good/perfect endings.

I used to hate Tidus. Haaaaate. However, looking back and thinking of how they told the story in the game, and how he did change...while he is not my favorite character still, they did do a very good job with showing how being in Spira changed him.

Yuna...she did mature eventually, and she did have a rather large stubborn streak, but it annoyed me that we're relying on someone to save the world, who has the backbone of a limp noodle and relies so fully on everyone else to make decisions for her. However, she did step up and mature and undergo some development and growth.

However, the best characters were the 'side' characters - Lulu, Auron, and Rikku. And don't even start me on how they destroyed Rikku's characterization in FFX-2...

Well I really disagree. Tidus was an annoying whiny little shithead throughout the story. In fact I can't remember a single thing that actually lead to his growth as a character until the final battle when he finally mans up alittle. And he's still a self-centred prick right up until the end, harping on with that 'this is my story' bullshit. Hey moron, it actually isn't. It's Yuna's story. You're not even a real person. **** off.

Plus his 'selfess and loyal' aspects only really materialise when he makes the mind-numbinglystupidest gawddamn decision to kill off Yunalesca to save Yuna. Way to doom the world dipshit. He had absolutely no idea about Yu Yevon at that point. He was just lucky the plot was structured in a way which came through for him in the end.

Originally posted by Nephthys
AC2's story isn't all that great. 😬

someone killed your dad so we should kill him right back stuffs happening in the future the entire ezio story is pointless PLOT!

Well I really disagree. Tidus was an annoying whiny little shithead throughout the story. In fact I can't remember a single thing that actually lead to his growth as a character until the final battle when he finally mans up alittle. And he's still a self-centred prick right up until the end, harping on with that 'this is my story' bullshit. Hey moron, it actually isn't. It's Yuna's story. You're not even a real person. **** off.

Plus his 'selfess and loyal' aspects only really materialise when he makes the mind-numbinglystupidest gawddamn decision to kill off Yunalesca to save Yuna. Way to doom the world dipshit. He had absolutely no idea about Yu Yevon at that point. He was just lucky the plot was structured in a way which came through for him in the end.

You clearly did not pay attention to anything that happened in FFX, then. The game was about Tidus, even though Yuna was the actual hero of it. It was set up that way. He was the main character and we were seeing events through his eyes.

And he grew into those traits long before. What about leading the attack on Bevelle to rescue Yuna back after they realized what Seymour was and what her plan was? What about fighting his way through Bikanel to Home, determined to rescue Yuna from the Al Bhed (not realizing they were trying to save her)? What about immediately befriending Rikku when she joined the group and sticking up for her?

Yuna was not the one that would have died when they faced Yunalesca, by the way. That would have been him, or Rikku, or Auron, or Lulu, or Wakka, or Kimahri...not Yuna. Yuna would have died later, but when they decided to fight, it wasn't just about her.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
How is VII cliched? That Cloud's memories had been intertwined with Zach's and that he largely believed himself to essentially be a different person with a different history was a very unique take on the basic amnesia story. Not to mention the basic setup where you have a group of what are essentially environmental terrorists fighting for the planet, as well as the tragic death of the love interest in Aerith which was pretty rare in that type of videogame storyline. I'd be willing to bet that AC2 is a lot more cliched than FFVII. What was particularly unique/differentiated about AC2?

Originally posted by NCRotCA
Anything specific?

Based on what people are saying about AC2 it is very heavily driven by its main character, Ezio, and in the lifetime achievement thread everything Kaliero presented about the character and his role in the storyline was pretty generic stuff. I'm sure its execution may have been great among other things but I have a feeling that there was nothing particularly differentiated or unique about it, which was most certainly the case for Final Fantasy VII, yet people commonly refer to that as generic.

AC2's story spans decades and deconstructs everything that the original game set up about being an Assassin, shows a young man grow realistically into a responsible adult, juggling revenge with a duty to mankind. It expands the plot gradually and naturally as you move from one rival family to the true conspirators, and Ezio even eventually shows distaste for some of his kills, though he understands they must be done for a larger purpose than himself.

And it does all of this while weaving through real history, tying factual occurrences and deaths together in a new way without disturbing any of it. The story is believable and done artfully enough that you could imagine it actually happening like that if the world were being fought over by two giant secret societies.

And as a by the way, I intentionally simplified my description of the plot and left out the non-Ezio parts, since the post was about the specific character and I didn't want to spoil important plot elements.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Oh, let's see... the Shadowrun crapsack city of Midgar, the one-dimensional characters (angst-ridden teen hero, his action girl love interest, his angry black man partner, the last-of-her-kind innocent flower girl, the obligatory non-ninja ninja, the team mascot, the emo vampire), Sephiroth's angsty past, the layers of lazy fake memory twists...

1997 is a bit late for any of those to be archetypes. Everything I mentioned had already fallen into cliche by that point. Hell, the Cyberpunk genre itself was almost 20 years old at the time.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
1997 is a bit late for any of those to be archetypes. Everything I mentioned had already fallen into cliche by that point. Hell, the Cyberpunk genre itself was almost 20 years old at the time.

Nah, not really. You could argue that Cloud is a deconstruction of the hero ideal, since he really sucks very, very hard, but no FFVII fan will admit to Cloud being a pitiful main.

If you want RPG deconstruction, you play Tales. The entire series is built on that principle.

Originally posted by General Kaliero
Nah, not really. You could argue that Cloud is a deconstruction of the hero ideal, since he really sucks very, very hard, but no FFVII fan will admit to Cloud being a pitiful main.

If you want RPG deconstruction, you play Tales. The entire series is built on that principle.

I do play Tales. Tales of the Abyss is one of my favorite games.

Beyond Cloud sucking, how so? In that it's a crappy world instead of an idyllic fantasy world? FFVII was nowhere near the archetype of that. Even in the context of the series, FFVI began that.

Tales of the Abyss is one of my favorite games as well. Hmm.

In other news, I am totally awesome.

😄