Woohoo, official off-topic thread!

Originally posted by Burning thought
That wiki even points it out as a gameplay mechanic though, everything in Defiance concerning the reavers meters and such are never canonically stated in the games canon. The reaver drinks blood being a vampiric blade and when it gains raziel, the soul reaver eats souls. But as I said, there seems to be no "charge up" canonically. Again, the only canon power that "may" be connected ot the reaver drinking blood is a higher regen of the wielder although even that is arguable.

Except it is stated in the manual that the Blood Reaver feeds on victim's life energy (via blood) to power up temporarily. Is the manual not canon?

No discussion needed, canon cutscene shows him using it in his human form.

The DT bar is completely different to the RG bar with is similar to the SR bar.

Originally posted by Burning thought
Hm maybe but that be discussed in a thread, point being is they seem to use the same source for their power which is canon in the story while the reavers are stated to devour souls or blood but theres no canon that states they need to do it to charge up, thats solely a gameplay mechanic which is actually ignored by game bosses and not even present in older games of the exact same weapons. Same with "selecting" different reavers being a mechanic, their not different reavers, the same weapon is imbued by the power of whatever they absorbed but in-game you select them on a wheel.

The manual states that they may be temporarily empowered with the energy of a weakened enemy. And the rule is that if an ability appears in-game, it is canon unless contradicted otherwise by cutscenes or other sources of canon.
What is a gameplay mechanic is the meter which shows how much energy the Reaver has, not the actual act of collecting energy to power up the Reaver. Unless you can find a source of canon that proves the Reaver cannot be empowered with energy from a weakened enemy.

There's a thing called retconning. That takes care of the "not present in older games" bit.

Originally posted by BloodRain
^And at the end when escaping EG.

Nooo, I said that 'RG filled is from defending, filling with anger, adrenalin and the attackers energy'. DT and RG are separate things.

You really expect me to list all the times he used that teleport? uhuh

Indeed. DT is canon, while RG is a gameplay mechanic 313

Originally posted by BloodRain
No discussion needed, canon cutscene shows him using it in his human form.

So he can use while DT'd and in human form.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Except it is stated in the manual that the Blood Reaver feeds on victim's life energy (via blood) to power up temporarily. Is the manual not canon?

Not necesserily all of it to the storyline, the manuel has gameplay instructions in it. I have it in front of me now and it speaks of holding certain keys to gain certain effects, its an instruction manuel, not a source for canon tbh apart from maybe the actual section that says "story".

Also, how does this help you? if anything it helps me because it does not hint at anything to do with the blood/soul meters for reaver spells but hints at a power up for the reaver.

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
The manual states that they may be temporarily empowered with the energy of a weakened enemy. And the rule is that if an ability appears in-game, it is canon unless contradicted otherwise by cutscenes or other sources of canon.
What is a gameplay mechanic is the meter which shows how much energy the Reaver has, not the actual act of collecting energy to power up the Reaver. Unless you can find a source of canon that proves the Reaver cannot be empowered with energy from a weakened enemy.

There's a thing called retconning. That takes care of the "not present in older games" bit.

It also states press "u" near a vulnerable enemy in the same section and later describes bouncing enemies with your sword, its a gameplay manuel, iirc most game manuels describe mechanics. No source of canon contradicts what the game shows though, the canon actually never mentions some draining power that is used in another source.

The meter is what were talking about concerning spell powers which is the only thing connected to them. Well no not really unless you can show where the retcon is, a line in an instruction manuel does not cover a retcon of major storyline elements nor does it actually counter what I was saying at all.

double post

Originally posted by Demonic Phoenix
You really expect me to list all the times he used that teleport? uhuh

Indeed. DT is canon, while RG is a gameplay mechanic 313

So he can use while DT'd and in human form.

131

fffuuu

wtfawe

Originally posted by Burning thought
double post

QFT

Also, how does this help you? if anything it helps me because it does not hint at anything to do with the blood/soul meters for reaver spells but hints at a power up for the reaver.

What are you even talking about now? The section that states the Reaver absorbs victim's energy to power up is right next to the section with the Reaver Spells. When the gauge is full of life energy you get the reaver spell, how does this not prove that Kain needs to feed the reaver to use the spell?

The meter is what were talking about concerning spell powers which is the only thing connected to them. Well no not really unless you can show where the retcon is, a line in an instruction manuel does not cover a retcon of major storyline elements nor does it actually counter what I was saying at all.

In the older games, the Reaver did not have fragments of the Balance emblem. That is where the spells come from, and that is the reason the gauge is there in the first place.

Originally posted by The Scenario
What are you even talking about now? The section that states the Reaver absorbs victim's energy to power up is right next to the section with the Reaver Spells. When the gauge is full of life energy you get the reaver spell, how does this not prove that Kain needs to feed the reaver to use the spell?

In the older games, the Reaver did not have fragments of the Balance emblem. That is where the spells come from, and that is the reason the gauge is there in the first place.

On page 20, it says to temporary power it, nothing about spells which are on the following page. Which talks about the "reaver gauge" the mechanic which is uncanon. A mechanic which is thrown out in the boss fight when it suits the game, the bosses can "spam" spell powers.

But it still drank blood which is what all the "charge" stuff is coming from, true the balance emblem endows both the reaver and its wielder with powers but thats the only canon element, theres no canon connection between the two and power draining, it does not really even make sense since the reaver absorbs blood in the blade regardless of emblems. Seriously, citing a gameplay instruction manuel discussion mechanics is the same as showing me a video of the same mechanics. The manuel even goes step by step through the mechanic, from pressing "U" for the PC version to having to wait till their "vulnerable"

The "reaver gauge" is the temporary power up. Feed it and it powers up for a while, then the gauge drops.

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Growing le beard in, its giving me the urge to go chop a tree down..

It seems the reaver is also "impressed" by how skillful your combos are as well! dur, its even better when Kain/Razel wait for an enemy to be weakened, since they cannot possibly impale someone before hand....

All very useful for a gameplay mechanics thread but when canon is concerned, not really.

Theres probably some mechanics in a lot of gameplay manuels.

Got to the smiley face: gave up reading.

Can you use more than one style inDMC 4 or is it like in DMC 3?

Originally posted by Burning thought
On page 20, it says to temporary power it, nothing about spells which are on the following page. Which talks about the "reaver gauge" the mechanic which is uncanon. A mechanic which is thrown out in the boss fight when it suits the game, the bosses can "spam" spell powers.

But it still drank blood which is what all the "charge" stuff is coming from, true the balance emblem endows both the reaver and its wielder with powers but thats the only canon element, theres no canon connection between the two and power draining, it does not really even make sense since the reaver absorbs blood in the blade regardless of emblems. Seriously, citing a gameplay instruction manuel discussion mechanics is the same as showing me a video of the same mechanics. The manuel even goes step by step through the mechanic, from pressing "U" for the PC version to having to wait till their "vulnerable"

You're still ignoring the canon as soon as any mechanic enters it, though. The way it stands, it is:

Like Kain and Raziel, the Reaver has
an insatiable appetite for its enemies’
life-force. With each strike, the Reaver
absorbs a little of its victim’s energy,
and the Reaver Gauge begins to fill.
Because the energy in the Reaver
Gauge decays over time, Kain and
Raziel must maintain an intense
assault to build the Reaver
to a full charge.

When an enemy is reduced to a
vulnerable state, Kain and Raziel may
forego drinking the victim’s blood or
devouring its soul, and instead feed
the victim’s life energy to the Reaver
blade, increasing its power temporarily.

When the Reaver Gauge is full,
the Reaver becomes charged and its
combat performance is temporarily
augmented. The effect varies based on
the current Reaver enhancement. For
instance, the Reaver may temporarily
deal more damage, or inflict paralyzing
or stunning force upon its victims.
When the Reaver Charge ends,
the gauge is completely depleted.

A second effect occurs when the
Reaver Gauge is full. A Reaver Spell is
armed, indicated by a glow around
the Reaver Gauge. The spell can be
triggered at any time.

You honestly don't see the connection here?
1. The Reaver has a vampiric bloodlust. This is canon fact.
2. Feeding the Reaver blood and life energy temporarily increases its power. This, too, is canon fact.
3. When the Reaver Gauge is full, it temporarily increases its power. The gauge is a mechanic, but it represents the reaver's bloodlust and feeding.
4. When the gauge is full, a reaver spell can be used. Now, the gauge is still a mechanic, but the reaver spell is canon. Given that the gauge represents the reaver feeding, the spell can only be used once the reaver has been fed.

This is not a hard concept.

You don't any 'soul' styles in DMC4 like Doppelganger or Quicksilver in DMC3. Unless you mean the other styles, in which you can change between them mid-combat.

1. true
2. Not necesserily, this is baring on the mechanic
3. Full mechanic statement, the gauge is a mechanic, although the reaver has a bloodlust and feeds, theres no connection between the gauge and some "tank" of power that gets topped up to use spells.
4. The spell is canon yes, the gauge however is what you claiming it to be.

Its a lot simpler to point out that Kain is a sorceror, gains power through the reavers emblems (which are made with him in mind iirc), can use their powers alongside the reaver drinking blood which is canon including pyrokinesis, which he gains from the fire reaver and he uses regardless of its "gauge" which is again a mechanic.

You can open most manuel,s DMC, GOW and they describe how to charge the DT/Rage of the Gods powers, how to charge your health by finding orbs, how to level up EXP by hitting enemies etc. Mechanics, a manuel is no means the best source of canon, if it was a canon novel then maybe but it would not mensio nthe gameplay gauge.

Anything that even mensions the gauge is talking about the on-screen mechanic/bar for the reaver for player benefit. Kain never talks to raziel about his "gauge", hell, the Elder God sometimes hints on some alignment between gameplay mechanics and canon but not here iirc.

Why are you ignoring what the gauge represents? I think that's your problem; as soon as you see the gauge you throw the whole thing out. The gauge is an abstract representation of the Reaver's stored life energy, which it gains from feeding on blood. When it is full of life energy, it can produce magical effects. There is an obvious connection there.

EDIT: Is it too much to ask for a mod ruling on this? That was my original intention with the question before...all of this. I'm going to wait for that, if possible, rather than continue spamming the off topic thread.

Your making up what you think it represents, nowhere in the game does it say its a gauge of how much is drunk by the reaver or how this blood somehow powers magic. Your making up terms like "stored life energy", Kain when he applies the reaver simply states it "enchances the reavers power", he says nothing about "once I charge it up!" or even hints as that being part of his swords function. A guy with years, possibly thousands of yeas of knowledge on this weapon never mensions some sort of need to power it.

A lot of what the manuel talks about is also strongly gameplay related, theres no possible way any canon enemy can survive a single hit from Kain so the whole "stunning enemies" so you can impale them line is just as bad if not worse than Kratos having to stun them to press "O" for a finishing kill. Its one mechanic after another there.

Originally posted by The Scenario
That was my original intention with the question before...all of this.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Woo. Every time we trade posts the posts get longer. This is stupid, we should be narrowing things down, not adding more.

..heh :3

Originally posted by The Scenario

EDIT: Is it too much to ask for a mod ruling on this? That was my original intention with the question before...all of this. I'm going to wait for that, if possible, rather than continue spamming the off topic thread.

1. Not sure any moderator has played Lok so how can they rule on what is canon in the game? Unless they rule every part of an instruction manuel is canon which could have interesting results.
2. rule 14 outlines mechanics as a no go. This has been covered.

Originally posted by BloodRain
..heh :3

Exactly.

1. Not sure any moderator has played Lok so how can they rule on what is canon in the game? Unless they rule every part of an instruction manuel is canon which could have interesting results.
2. rule 14 outlines mechanics as a no go. This has been covered.

My original question was how often abilities connected to a meter could be used. If you declare the whole thing a game mechanic, you'd be giving up the ability connected to it, too. If you declare it can be used infinitely, however, you ignore the intention behind the ability. If the developers wanted you to use it without limits, they'd let you.