Originally posted by grey fox
I think he's more durable as well....
616 Cap? More durable than Ult. Cap? No way. Could 616 Cap keep conscious after being smashed several times over the head by a super-strong character with a pipe that had a chunk of concrete still attached? I doubt it. Although I'm still going with 616 on this for sheer mental and tactical power.
It all comes down to the shield. Ult cap's shield is made of adamantium. 616 cap's shield is made of crazy indestructible stuff. Besides that, ultiamte adamantium isnt even as good as 616 kind. Hulk ripped wolverine in half. They just dont make it like they used to. The vibranium in 616 cap's shield will absorb any impacts ult cap can dish out. Ult cap doesn't have that luxury with adamantium.
Well I think if it's going to come down to the shield then it's going to also come down to who is more skilled/balanced wielding it, and maybe throwing accuracy. Think about it (this is just a for instance example) 616 Cap's shield may be stronger or more durable, but if he can't get it up for defense quickly enough then Ultimate Cap is going to KO him with one good throw.
By the way, I do support 616 Cap here, but that was just an example.
Originally posted by Etrigan
Well I think if it's going to come down to the shield then it's going to also come down to who is more skilled/balanced wielding it, and maybe throwing accuracy.
Cap has that down. Ult. Cap uses his shield more realistically, while Cap has that cartoon level of craziness with his shield skills.
Originally posted by Etrigan
616 Cap? More durable than Ult. Cap? No way. Could 616 Cap keep conscious after being smashed several times over the head by a super-strong character with a pipe that had a chunk of concrete still attached? I doubt it. Although I'm still going with 616 on this for sheer mental and tactical power.
Well considering what Cap took in Civil War and in his fight with the enhanced Red Scull who used Cap's body like a wrecking ball that brought down the entire building on them. Well yeah U.Cap might have a better durability but not by too much I imagine.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneI find it interesting to note that there are only two ways that you guys are willing to interpret that scene:
Ok but as you know there are other examples, for example hitting Savage Hulk so hard he lets go of him. Savage Hulk>>>> Ult Hulk. It also was not a striaight up fist fight. Cap dropped the tank on him then layed into Ult Hulk, after that he got beatdown.
1) Ult. Hulk is very weak and clearly not 100-class and therefore, Ult. Cap knocking him out momentarily isn't indicative of Ult. Cap having greater strength then 616 Cap.
or
2) Ult. Hulk is pretty damn strong, but his fight with Ult. Iron Man, his calming down by Ult. Wasp and the tank dropping on him made him so weak, that Ult. Cap (who is also weak) was able to knock him out.
This leaves out the most obvious interpretation of that scene: Ult. Hulk is friggin strong and Ult. Cap was strong enough to knock him on his butt with straight up fisticuffs. Why is this interpretation so hard to imagine? Ult. Hulk is not weak. Say it with me: Ult. Hulk is not weak. He wasn't even on the verge of being knocked out, at that exact moment in time he was still strong enough to rip through that tank like it was paper. Ult. Hulk is ridiculously strong if you've read the Ultimates in every appearance he's been in. What I see is a concerted effort in equivocating to the point where you actually have to argue that either Ult. Hulk is weak or that Ult. Hulk was about to keel over from exhaustion and that's why Ult. Cap was able to knock him on his butt.
Ult. Hulk's specialty is recovery time and adaptability. He was strong enough to take Ult. Giantman apart in three panels, strong enough to rip through Ult. Ironman's armor and strong enough to rip apart that tank. In later appearances, you see his strength even more illustrated as he rips apart Herr Kleiser and the entire Chitauri fleet. Now, if it is your opinion that Ult. Hulk either started out weak in that particular appearance then you have to explain how he was able to rip through that tank. If your opinion is that he was beat down so badly, that it would only take a few hits from a less then class-10 hitter to knock him out, then explain how he was able to take three full-blown Mjolnir shots from Ult. Thor and turn around and make fun of Ult. Thor's hippy haircut. Because that took place DIRECTLY after Ult. Hulk's fight with Ult. Cap. Explain both those points. Because the obvious explanation, considering that Ult. Cap can take shots from Ult. Abomination, leap several stories straight up, fight Herr Klesier and hold up trees is that Ult. Cap is just that damn strong.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneWhat I see is USAgent being taken apart by the Ultimate Weapon in Ronan's disposal and being so messed up that he can barely stand. How is that, for argument's purposes, comparable to Ult. Cap taking a point-blank double-fist pounding from Ult. Abomination and getting up to fight Abdul? I am not arguing that they are the same and that because USagent is in a rougher shape, that Ult. Cap's feat is greater. They are completely different circumstances. Energy weapon vs. double fist pound? I have no idea how strong the output of his energy weapon was as compared to a double-fist pound by a class-100 opponent. You'd have to assume a whole lot in order to guage the side-by-side durability. You assume that because it's Ronan, who in your opinion is greater then Ult. Hulk, that the feat means USAgent is more durable then Ult. Cap, even when USAgent can barely stand or talk. My natural inclination is to assume that the blast was not as damaging as a double-fist pound by Ult. Abomination and because it was weaker, that shows Ult. Cap's durability is far superior considering Ult. Cap had no problem getting up to fight another Super Soldier.
Well there you go.http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/3MaximumSecurity33.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/3MaximumSecurity34.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/3MaximumSecurity35.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/3MaximumSecurity36.jpgThe point is Ronan >>>>> Ultimate Hulk. 😬
You need more direct side-by-side comparisons. As we shall see later on, when we compare falling from great heights. So unless you got a scan of a class-100 opponent piledriving USAgent and him being fine, the scan is very off-topic and completely open to base assumptions.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneThe tree that crushed the truck is a different tree then the one Ult. Cap is bracing. The tree Ult. Cap is holding up hasn't fallen on anything yet. This is obvious because in the second panel, there are no soldiers underneath the tree that crushed the truck and the tree that Ult. Cap is stopping (third panel) has several soldiers underneath it. Trees that height and width have been measured to be 30-40 tons. And considering that the tree is nearly parallel to the ground, Ult. Cap is indeed holding the entire thing up from and not just trying to keep it vertical (your idea of bracing). It's on top of him.
http://img397.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitled5154zw.jpg
No he braced the wieght of the tree. Hell he didnt even lift it compleley off the ground because it was partially supported by the truck. I could see 616 Cap doing that. We still dont know how much it weighed hell I think somebody who could lift 600lbs maybe be able to tip over a car and brace its weight, that dont mean he can lift 2 tons. 😬
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneNow look here. This is a direct comparison. Don't equivocate on this point. USAgent fell from several stories and had bandages and slings and Ult. Cap dove from 600 feet into the air into water (which is essentially concrete at that point) and went on to swim several miles. Who appears to have greater durability? Just because you think two punches and an energy blast from a nonchalant Ronan is worse then however many times Ult. Hulk bashed on Ult. Cap off-panel doesn't mitigate the direct comparison I've laid out for you here.
Well ok that was 600 feet into water was it? I think an ordinery guy did something like that once. Ok he jumped several strories into the air, I had a look at it again and that 1 ft looks impressive but that alone dont make him heads and shoulders above US Agent. Above 616 probably but he did manage to jump on to Iron man he was trying to fly away from him.Ok fair enough. Again though US Agent took a beating from Ronan thats more impressive than taking a beating from Ultimate Hulk. Alos I think that might have happened before US Agents upgrade..maybe.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneIt's your interpretation, but when you have a tree that's falling down on top of you, that's a lot harder then just bracing it from a stationary position with your strength. As a second look will inform you, Ult. Cap not only managed to stop the tree's momentum, but held it up without any aid whatsoever. He even managed to make a joke about it. If you choose to believe that it was an isolated instance or the tree was somehow made of air and didn't weigh a couple dozen tons, I can't convince you otherwise that he's stronger then USAgent. Other people will make their own judgment. But I don't think anyone here will argue that 616 Cap could jump several stories straight up. I've never seen USAgent do it, but no way does 616 Cap jump that high. That's a Spiderman feat. Ult. Cap >>>> 616 Cap in strength.
Well you know what. Azareal has blantaly lifted up a tree, he has been classified as having 1-2 tons strength like Cap has, as far as im concerned Ult Cap was supporting its weight and not really lifting it up.Well he did smash some guys head againt the concrete and manged to crack it...
He did manage to catch Iron Man who was trying to fly away, but we dont know exactly how he jumped but was still pretty impressive.
I think Ult Cap is more durable than than 616 Cap but you havnet proven that hes stronger than 616 Cap or more durable than the US Agent.
But in terms of durability, I think I've very amply proved that Ult. Cap's is greater then USAgent's when you compare the 600 ft no-parachute skydive with the hypnotized falling several stories. Ult. Cap was fine and even swam several miles. USAgent was in bandages. Nuff said.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Ok but as you know there are other examples, for example hitting Savage Hulk so hard he lets go of him. Savage Hulk>>>> Ult Hulk. It also was not a striaight up fist fight. Cap dropped the tank on him then layed into Ult Hulk, after that he got beatdown.
Pretty much. 616 Cap had downed briefly guys that can rip tanks apart as well. Such as Rhino, Hyde, Thunderball, Ironman. Plus note that Thunderball at the time didn't really have much circumstances like U.Cap vs U.Hulk fight.
Really thats a feat I could see 616 Cap match easily. U.Shield even noted that U.Hulk was getting stronger throughout the duration of his fight against the Ultimate Avengers. So it would make sense he was at his weakest with wasp calming for bit and then got stronger to the point with U.Thor.
As U.Thor actually was able to break bones and shatter ribs IIRC. Besides U.Hulk treating U.Cap like a insect later on in there fight without circumstances involved.
Later on in another Ultimate big fight. We got too see U.Cap fight U.Thor as it was shown U.Cap needed to use a flame thrower and it was pretty much stated U.Cap needed to be saved from U.Thor. Does this really sound like U.Cap can go toe to toe with U.Hulk like some of his fans make it out to be?........I think not. Because he couldn't.
Even against his Scroll fight, he had him severely wounded from the jet plane and could only gain the upper hand by using the edge of his shield against him. Again misinterpreted especially forgeting Kleiser was hurt from the start from the Jet plane ram and then its big explosion. As seen here.
Later on U.Nick even blows a part of the scrolls head off. As U.Cap gains the momentum when the scroll is more gloating then really trying anything, as he wants U.Cap to admit surrender. As then Cap takes the initiative and leaves him unbalanced and he cleaves him apart with the edge of his adamantium shield.
Again not anything that shows U.Cap can go toe to toe with U.Hulk or as shown with U.Thor for that matter. As it was admitted on book he can't and needed rescueing.
A feat again 616 Cap can match with the edge of his shield as he has matched. Against Baron Blood a vampire who has stalemated Namor back in WW2. As Cap didn't have much of an option but decided to decapitate the vampires head off. This has some circumstances as well but so did the Kleiser and U.Hulk fight.
Also something I noticed with U.Abom hitting U.Cap.
The first punching looks like it really doesn't connect solidly as U.Cap might have gone with it as he doesn't cry out in pain, not up until the second hit. Which is impressive but not something superior to 616 Cap's feats.
Cap takes a bruising from a upset Ironman.
http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericaann0918to3.jpg
http://img455.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericaann0919zm0.jpg
http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericaann0921tj0.jpg
http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericaann0923ax6.jpg
And from Civil War.
"ouch" Is all I can say.
http://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0020ke1.jpg
http://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0021rz1.jpg
http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0022nz4.jpg
http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0006hc1.jpg
http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0007nc4.jpg
http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0008dd0.jpg
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I find it interesting to note that there are only two ways that you guys are willing to interpret that scene:1) Ult. Hulk is very weak and clearly not 100-class and therefore, Ult. Cap knocking him out momentarily isn't indicative of Ult. Cap having greater strength then 616 Cap.
or
2) Ult. Hulk is pretty damn strong, but his fight with Ult. Iron Man, his calming down by Ult. Wasp and the tank dropping on him made him so weak, that Ult. Cap (who is also weak) was able to knock him out.
This leaves out the most obvious interpretation of that scene: Ult. Hulk is friggin strong and Ult. Cap was strong enough to knock him on his butt with straight up fisticuffs. Why is this interpretation so hard to imagine? Ult. Hulk is not weak. Say it with me: Ult. Hulk is not weak. He wasn't even on the verge of being knocked out, at that exact moment in time he was still strong enough to rip through that tank like it was paper. Ult. Hulk is ridiculously strong if you've read the Ultimates in every appearance he's been in. What I see is a concerted effort in equivocating to the point where you actually have to argue that either Ult. Hulk is weak or that Ult. Hulk was about to keel over from exhaustion and that's why Ult. Cap was able to knock him on his butt.
Ult. Hulk's specialty is recovery time and adaptability. He was strong enough to take Ult. Giantman apart in three panels, strong enough to rip through Ult. Ironman's armor and strong enough to rip apart that tank. In later appearances, you see his strength even more illustrated as he rips apart Herr Kleiser and the entire Chitauri fleet. Now, if it is your opinion that Ult. Hulk either started out weak in that particular appearance then you have to explain how he was able to rip through that tank. If your opinion is that he was beat down so badly, that it would only take a few hits from a less then class-10 hitter to knock him out, then explain how he was able to take three full-blown Mjolnir shots from Ult. Thor and turn around and make fun of Ult. Thor's hippy haircut. Because that took place DIRECTLY after Ult. Hulk's fight with Ult. Cap. Explain both those points. Because the obvious explanation, considering that Ult. Cap can take shots from Ult. Abomination, leap several stories straight up, fight Herr Klesier and hold up trees is that Ult. Cap is just that damn strong.
So you still continuing to be rude...ok. First of all the point is not that he was 'weak" but 'weaker', get it? He was fighting other Avengers and just had a tank dropped on him!!!!! So eventhough ripping apart that tank was impressive he was not fighting at full capicity.
The other point. Savage Hulk >>>> Ult Hulk. Ronan >>> Ult Hulk. 616 Cap has more impressive showings against a stronger Hulk. US Agent ahs taken beating from Ronan who is more powerful than Ult Hulk.
Furthermore it wasnt straight up fisticuffs he used his skill. For example he used both his feet to hit Hulk. Hell ive seen Beast and Spiderman both yours there legs to hurt much stronger opponents. He aimed for his nose, didnt 616 Cap use Rhinos nose to KO him? He kicked him in the nuts!!!! Hell you dont even know wether Ult Hulk is class 100, im pretty goddamn sure if Spiderman kicked Doc Samson in the nuts it would hurt.
Hes speciality is recovery time? Whats your proof? Ult Hulk took part Giant Man in 3 panels. Big deal, considering that US Agent has fought Sasquatch and 616 Cap has taken out Giant Man with one finger in a weakened state I dont see what the big deal is Ult Giantman seems like a goddamn pussy that beats his woman.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
What I see is USAgent being taken apart by the Ultimate Weapon in Ronan's disposal and being so messed up that he can barely stand. How is that, for argument's purposes, comparable to Ult. Cap taking a point-blank double-fist pounding from Ult. Abomination and getting up to fight Abdul? I am not arguing that they are the same and that because USagent is in a rougher shape, that Ult. Cap's feat is greater. They are completely different circumstances. Energy weapon vs. double fist pound? I have no idea how strong the output of his energy weapon was as compared to a double-fist pound by a class-100 opponent. You'd have to assume a whole lot in order to guage the side-by-side durability. You assume that because it's Ronan, who in your opinion is greater then Ult. Hulk, that the feat means USAgent is more durable then Ult. Cap, even when USAgent can barely stand or talk. My natural inclination is to assume that the blast was not as damaging as a double-fist pound by Ult. Abomination and because it was weaker, that shows Ult. Cap's durability is far superior considering Ult. Cap had no problem getting up to fight another Super Soldier.
Well considering he was doing this before he beatdown US Agent.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l107/A_Flight11/3MaximumSecurity31.jpg
Im pretty godamn sure that both Thing and Iron Man on there own could give either Ult Hulk or Ult Abom a run for there money or beat them. So yeah Ronan >>> Ult Hulk and Ult Abom
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
You need more direct side-by-side comparisons. As we shall see later on, when we compare falling from great heights. So unless you got a scan of a class-100 opponent piledriving USAgent and him being fine, the scan is very off-topic and completely open to base assumptions.
I dont care if its off-topic anymore you pissed me off. What assumptions?
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
The tree that crushed the truck is a different tree then the one Ult. Cap is bracing. The tree Ult. Cap is holding up hasn't fallen on anything yet. This is obvious because in the second panel, there are no soldiers underneath the tree that crushed the truck and the tree that Ult. Cap is stopping (third panel) has several soldiers underneath it. Trees that height and width have been measured to be 30-40 tons. And considering that the tree is nearly parallel to the ground, Ult. Cap is indeed holding the entire thing up from and not just trying to keep it vertical (your idea of bracing). It's on top of him.
The jury still out on that one considering that Wolverine is class 2 and has picked up a tree and hit somebody with it, and that Batman who is at most class 1 has kicked down a tree I dont see how that has to be class 30 or 40. Hell Azrael has lifted up a tree of similar size and hes classifed as class 2.
I dont even think the writer even knows how much trees weigh.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Now look here. This is a direct comparison. Don't equivocate on this point. USAgent fell from several stories and had bandages and slings and Ult. Cap dove from 600 feet into the air into water (which is essentially concrete at that point) and went on to swim several miles. Who appears to have greater durability?
Excuse me????? Did US Agent fall into water or concrete? Ult Cap may have feel 600ft but he dived!!!!! Theres a difference it could dman well be argued that if he landed spread eagle he would have got ****ed up. Heres the important point. A normal human being or at leasst not even class10 has managed to do the samething. Hobgoblin tried to kill this gy by dropping him in the river from agreat hieght the guy survived by cutting the water.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Just because you think two punches and an energy blast from a nonchalant Ronan is worse then however many times Ult. Hulk bashed on Ult. Cap off-panel doesn't mitigate the direct comparison I've laid out for you here.
Excuse me. Ronan was about as nonchallant as he was when he brushed Thing and Ironman as when he was beating US Agent, so the fact he seemed nonchallant dont mean ****.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
It's your interpretation, but when you have a tree that's falling down on top of you, that's a lot harder then just bracing it from a stationary position with your strength. As a second look will inform you, Ult. Cap not only managed to stop the tree's momentum, but held it up without any aid whatsoever. He even managed to make a joke about it. If you choose to believe that it was an isolated instance or the tree was somehow made of air and didn't weigh a couple dozen tons, I can't convince you otherwise that he's stronger then USAgent. Other people will make their own judgment.
Do you think the writer knows how mcuh those tree weighs, hell he could have been like me and assumed that it would weigh something like around 10 tons. Characters who dont even have class 10 strength have similar feats.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
But I don't think anyone here will argue that 616 Cap could jump several stories straight up. I've never seen USAgent do it, but no way does 616 Cap jump that high. That's a Spiderman feat. Ult. Cap >>>> 616 Cap in strength.
Ok i'll go with that.
Originally posted by OneDumbG0
But in terms of durability, I think I've very amply proved that Ult. Cap's is greater then USAgent's when you compare the 600 ft no-parachute skydive with the hypnotized falling several stories. Ult. Cap was fine and even swam several miles. USAgent was in bandages. Nuff said.
No you havent.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Also something I noticed with U.Abom hitting U.Cap.The first punching looks like it really doesn't connect solidly as U.Cap might have gone with it as he doesn't cry out in pain, not up until the second hit. Which is impressive but not something superior to 616 Cap's feats.
Cap takes a bruising from a upset Ironman.
http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericaann0918to3.jpg
http://img455.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericaann0919zm0.jpg
http://img68.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericaann0921tj0.jpg
http://img64.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericaann0923ax6.jpgAnd from Civil War.
"ouch" Is all I can say.http://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0020ke1.jpg
http://img162.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0021rz1.jpg
http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0022nz4.jpg
http://img252.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0006hc1.jpg
http://img77.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0007nc4.jpg
http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan0008dd0.jpg
Looking at that evidence Ult Cap isnt above 616 Cap in durability that much. I will say this though I do have a problem with Cap taking full force blows from Iron Man. Iron Man has been classifed as class 80. Considering that Cap had to roll with the blow from a Skrull Collosus those blows should have killed him.
I would have assumed that in the Civil War IM was not hitting him full force. Got no problem with him taking class 10 shots but full force class 80s....I dunno man.
Yeah that punch from Ult Abom didnt look clean, well for starters its not like Ult Cap was smack bang in the midle of his fists and even the one fist that got him didnt fully connect. Stll impressive but GO is gonna throw a fit.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Well considering what Cap took in Civil War and in his fight with the enhanced Red Scull who used Cap's body like a wrecking ball that brought down the entire building on them. Well yeah U.Cap might have a better durability but not by too much I imagine.
I'd say he's far more durable. 616 Cap takes a lot of beatings (and yeah, getting smashed up by Iron Man in Civil War was a good example), but I think determination is a big part of it and in that field Ult Cap just doesn't go down. Of course 616 Cap is driven by determination as well, but Ult Cap has been beaten around a lot more.
Originally posted by Etrigan
I'd say he's far more durable. 616 Cap takes a lot of beatings (and yeah, getting smashed up by Iron Man in Civil War was a good example), but I think determination is a big part of it and in that field Ult Cap just doesn't go down. Of course 616 Cap is driven by determination as well, but Ult Cap has been beaten around a lot more.
That I can kind of agree with but not by far as you state it. It still evens out, if U.Cap is a bit more durable, if there is any gap, I see 616 Cap a bit more faster, more agile, more smarter and definitely much more skilled.
