H/P doomsday vs. Thanos with the Orb Of Morg

Originally posted by leonidas
he activated the power cosmic? where?

from that scan all he was doing was studying it. i have no problem with you speculating that he used it to somehow power himself up. the problem i have is when people state it as a fact. it clearly is anything but, based on that scan. he has also throughout his career been a knowledge seeker. he could simply have been studying the orb for a way to safeguard his OWN energies from being stolen by tyrant at some point. or perhaps looking for a way to turn the process around on him, looking for any weakness he could discern as a continengy in the event tyrant came for revenge or they met another time.

all equally valid speculation, all equally unsubstantiated on panel.

So basically... he just kept a power bauble with a shit load of power, just to study it, and not to siphon off it's power, and therefore contradicting his own history?

Maybe, but I find it hard to believe he did nothing with it, besides gain knowledge...

Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes but again, I'm only proposing for those that think of the orb as an actual power up for Thanos. I don't know for sure whether he actually powered himself up, all I know is that he walked away with the orb he used/had in the battle with Tyrant so he should still logically be as powerful as he was during that fight whether he boosted himself or not. It's the end result I'm concerned with(the Tyrant fight being a valid indication of Thanos's level of power), not the means(whether he was powered up or not).

Originally posted by Tyrant

So basically... he just kept a power bauble with a shit load of power, just to study it, and not to siphon off it's power, and therefore contradicting his own history?

Maybe, but I find it hard to believe he did nothing with it, besides gain knowledge...

Originally posted by quanchi112
ur opinion of this event is just that an opinion.

But yours is just based off of it not being stated directly...

Originally posted by darthgoober
But if you look at it as a powerup device, then it doesn't really make sense for Thanos NOT to upgrade himself with it. Thanos isn't stupid, it would be out of character for him to aquire something like that and then just toss it in the closet when he's done studying it. Thanos pretty much CONTINUOUSLY seeks out ways to increase his power, so having acquired one I think it's safe to say that he did just that. Think about it, if on the last page of a comic we see a hungry Galactus on a far off planet that will sustain his hunger at the end of an issue and see him starting to activate the machinery on his ship, isn't it a fairly safe assumption to say that he ate/absorbed the energy from the planet in question?

that's an unbalanced comparison. we know for a fact galactus consistently eats planets. that's what he does.

the same cannot be said of thanos and his acquistion of power. can you list all his "power-ups"?

Originally posted by Tyrant
And so is yours... imagine that.

But yours is just based off of it not being stated directly...

Originally posted by Tyrant

So basically... he just kept a power bauble with a shit load of power, just to study it, and not to siphon off it's power, and therefore contradicting his own history?

Maybe, but I find it hard to believe he did nothing with it, besides gain knowledge...

where's that scan from, bran?

Originally posted by leonidas
that's an unbalanced comparison. we know for a fact galactus consistently eats planets. that's what he does.

the same cannot be said of thanos and his acquistion of power. can you list all his "power-ups"?

Originally posted by leonidas
where's that scan from, bran?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Most of Thanos's "lesser" power ups aren't directly covered other than his had bionic amping back in the day. But just as we know that Galactus constantly eats planets, we know that Thanos constantly seeks to increase his power when the opportunity presents itself because(like Galactus's eating) that's what he does. When have you ever seen Thanos actually pass up an opportunity to increase his personal power when the option is there?

how many options are we talking about? he didn't permanently increase his power from the cosmic cube. he was GRANTED power by death. he somehow gained added power from the 616's version of the hotu incident. many of his other ventures were later retconned. he didn't permanently power himself from the tears of the designate. i'm sure i'm missing a couple incidences where he had power but did NOT permanently increase his power from it. did he even increase his personal power as a result of wielding the IG?

the most compelling evidence is bran's scan. but i'd like to know more about it's context and when it happened. regardless, the scan of him studying the orb is simply that -- him studying. everything else is speculation.

Originally posted by quanchi112
i think its form avengers celestial quest which is a thanos clone. 😆

yeah, i was pretty sure that was the case as well . . . i have the first couple issues of the mini (mantis is so fuggin weird . . .) so didn't get the rest but that LOOKED like where it came from.

of course if it DID come from their, the whole scan is useless. 😬

Originally posted by leonidas
yeah, i was pretty sure that was the case as well . . . i have the first couple issues of the mini (mantis is so fuggin weird . . .) so didn't get the rest but that LOOKED like where it came from.

of course if it DID come from their, the whole scan is useless. 😬

Also, it's been said that most Thanos clones are created so well, that they don't even know they are a clone, and neither does anyone else but Thanos.
They are also infused with all his memories (minus them being created I guess...), so...
And, the clone as we'll call it, has recollection that whenever he activates the Power Cosmic, he goes mad...

Plus, even if it is a clone... who do you think gave him the power?

Just saying, ya'll mean.

Originally posted by Tyrant
Celestial Quest is probably one of the dumbest retcons ever...
Even though it's not clearly said...

Also, it's been said that most Thanos clones are created so well, that they don't even know they are a clone, and neither does anyone else but Thanos.
They are also infused with all his memories (minus them being created I guess...), so...
And, the clone as we'll call it, has recollection that whenever he activates the Power Cosmic, he goes mad...

Plus, even if it is a clone... who do you think gave him the power?

Just saying, ya'll mean.

😂

you used the same argument i would have! 😄 ie-- thanos created the clone, so obviously whatever power it has, he would have. it's not a baseless argument, but we have no idea when the clones were created. for all we know he may have created it/them BEFORE the tyrant arc. beyond that, CQ took place in what, 2002? CP where thanos confronted tyrant was what, 93, 94? that's like 8 years this supposed power cosmic upgrade took to manifest? still not buying. he references knowing it makes him go mad. what incident is he referencing? when else, before or after, has he shown power cosmic? then of course there is the fact that regardless of how you want to couch it, it IS a clone, and not thanos.

i agree the retcons -- ALL of them -- are ridiculous, but, like his ridiculous power-ups, they are also part of his character. 😬

the CQ mini was utterly ridiculous from the get-go, imo. i'd just as soon write that display of 'power cosmic' off as writer-stupidity (something i try desperately and at all times to avoid . . .) and see no real reason to place any stock in the scene. even allowing for it to mean what you WANT it to mean for a moment, it seems to go against what you were saying earlier -- would thanos upgrade himself with a power he can't even control? all that studying, the ability to integrate it, and he . . . can't control it?? someone who has handled the hotu and the IG can't handle the power that adding morg's PC would give him?? 😑

sorry, bran. i respect your opinions but whole-heartedly disagree with them in this case. to me, the orb was a weapon he used, then studied, not something he absorbed into himself and permanently powered himself up with. there is no REASON it needs to be anything more than that.

Originally posted by Tyrant
Celestial Quest is probably one of the dumbest retcons ever...
Even though it's not clearly said...

Also, it's been said that most Thanos clones are created so well, that they don't even know they are a clone, and neither does anyone else but Thanos.
They are also infused with all his memories (minus them being created I guess...), so...
And, the clone as we'll call it, has recollection that whenever he activates the Power Cosmic, he goes mad...

Plus, even if it is a clone... who do you think gave him the power?

Just saying, ya'll mean.

clone doesnt count. what are going to have to see next kazar scans.
😆

He didn't really have a chance for a permanent upgrade via the cosmic cube because the cube was destroyed while he was still damn near all powerful. Same thing goes for the IG. In both opf those cases he had the power taken from him before he had any reason for an upgrade.

On the other hand, when he had the HOTU and had the opportunity to do an upgrade before he surrendered the power, he did just that. When he had the opportunity to increase his power via eating his doppleganger from the Infinity War, he did just that. WAY back in the day when he had the opportunity to increase his power via bionics he did just that. He's made a constant effort to increase his power in some manner in most of his arcs, so it really wouldn't be in character for him to refrain from another power up when he had one readily available that by your admission seemed to be pretty significant in power. Seriously, how much sense would it make for Thanos to get something to increase his power and then toss it in the closet when he was done studying it.... Zero(in fact it would be pretty stupid since he'd just made Tyrant's list of enemies). It seems to make a lot more sense for him to have used it to increase his power, especially if you look at his showings right before his death(blast against Galactus, tp battle with Galactus, owning the Fallen one, beating the Maker). Now your free to chalk those showings up to his upgrade via HOTU if you prefer, but either way his showing against Tyrant is now legit because he ended up with the power source, and his blast against Galactus and the Maker are obviously far more powerful than he was able to unleash against Tyrant. If he had some lower end feats from the same time period I might be inclined to agree with you, but the fact is that there's no conflicting evidence to that effect.

Originally posted by darthgoober
He didn't really have a chance for a permanent upgrade via the cosmic cube because the cube was destroyed while he was still damn near all powerful. Same thing goes for the IG. In both opf those cases he had the power taken from him before he had any reason for an upgrade.

On the other hand, when he had the HOTU and had the opportunity to do an upgrade before he surrendered the power, he did just that. When he had the opportunity to increase his power via eating his doppleganger from the Infinity War, he did just that. WAY back in the day when he had the opportunity to increase his power via bionics he did just that. He's made a constant effort to increase his power in some manner in most of his arcs, so it really wouldn't be in character for him to refrain from another power up when he had one readily available that by your admission seemed to be pretty significant in power. Seriously, how much sense would it make for Thanos to get something to increase his power and then toss it in the closet when he was done studying it.... Zero(in fact it would be pretty stupid since he'd just made Tyrant's list of enemies). It seems to make a lot more sense for him to have used it to increase his power, especially if you look at his showings right before his death(blast against Galactus, tp battle with Galactus, owning the Fallen one, beating the Maker). Now your free to chalk those showings up to his upgrade via HOTU if you prefer, but either way his showing against Tyrant is now legit because he ended up with the power source, and his blast against Galactus and the Maker are obviously far more powerful than he was able to unleash against Tyrant. If he had some lower end feats from the same time period I might be inclined to agree with you, but the fact is that there's no conflicting evidence to that effect.

Originally posted by darthgoober
He didn't really have a chance for a permanent upgrade via the cosmic cube because the cube was destroyed while he was still damn near all powerful. Same thing goes for the IG. In both opf those cases he had the power taken from him before he had any reason for an upgrade.

On the other hand, when he had the HOTU and had the opportunity to do an upgrade before he surrendered the power, he did just that. When he had the opportunity to increase his power via eating his doppleganger from the Infinity War, he did just that. WAY back in the day when he had the opportunity to increase his power via bionics he did just that. He's made a constant effort to increase his power in some manner in most of his arcs, so it really wouldn't be in character for him to refrain from another power up when he had one readily available that by your admission seemed to be pretty significant in power. Seriously, how much sense would it make for Thanos to get something to increase his power and then toss it in the closet when he was done studying it.... Zero(in fact it would be pretty stupid since he'd just made Tyrant's list of enemies). It seems to make a lot more sense for him to have used it to increase his power, especially if you look at his showings right before his death(blast against Galactus, tp battle with Galactus, owning the Fallen one, beating the Maker). Now your free to chalk those showings up to his upgrade via HOTU if you prefer, but either way his showing against Tyrant is now legit because he ended up with the power source, and his blast against Galactus and the Maker are obviously far more powerful than he was able to unleash against Tyrant. If he had some lower end feats from the same time period I might be inclined to agree with you, but the fact is that there's no conflicting evidence to that effect.

we can argue the hotu upgrade til forever. to suppose it happened means THE END was canon. i don't believe it was. you do. we'll differ there. problem is the retcon happened AFTER all his showings against maker and galactus, etc, where the power-up was still considered valid. marvel ROYALLY F'D UP that whole situation and there is simply no clear way to see through the mess. anyway, i'd be far more willing to attribute those showings (v galactus, v the maker) to his power-up from the hotu incident. you can't really be saying a small POWER COSMIC 'upgrade' allowed him to somehow do more harm to GALACTUS? 😑 were he actually using the PC as an upgrade, g should simply be able to drain it from him as he has with every other herald. beyond that, adding morg's power would be next to meaningless and certainly wouldn't lead to the accomplishments of the feats you're describing. not to mention you're using events and feats almost 10 YEARS after that orb incident to support the fact that the orb upgraded him? c'mon goob. i luv ya, and respect your opinion like i do bran's, but that's not gonna cut it. give me some feats that show he was upgraded immediately FOLLOWING the supposed power-up and i may be willing to concede. 😬

in his history, his 'power-ups' have come from a retconned hotu, a 'gift' from death and . . . bionics. 😕 eating his doppleganger didn't really do anything at all except give him insight into the magus's plan and more esoterically 'make him whole'. whatever the hell THAT means . . . anyway, it didn't actually 'double his power', or make him 'twice' as strong (or really do ANYTHING at all to his power-level) so i don't see how you call that an upgrade. 😬

as much a part of him trying to obtain greater power, is his quest for knowledge. what's more, his motive for getting the orb was stated quite clearly in the mini -- he wanted people to fear him again. it was a story about his regaining his rep, not about acquiring a 'bauble'. a power-up was NOT what he was after this time around. nor do i think he found one. did he learn from the orb? undoubtedly. could the knowledge have aided him if he met tyrant again? sure, why not? did he somehow transfer the power of the orb and integrate it into himself? i see no reason or evidence (not 10 years removed from the incident and explainable by yet ANOTHER 'power-up'😉 whatsoever to believe that was the case.

ps--didn't starfox battle him h2h for a while in that same time-period you're talking about? that would certainly go down as a lower showing if it wasn't retconned or something that is . . .

Originally posted by leonidas
we can argue the hotu upgrade til forever. to suppose it happened means THE END was canon. i don't believe it was. you do. we'll differ there. problem is the retcon happened AFTER all his showings against maker and galactus, etc, where the power-up was still considered valid. marvel ROYALLY F'D UP that whole situation and there is simply no clear way to see through the mess. anyway, i'd be far more willing to attribute those showings (v galactus, v the maker) to his power-up from the hotu incident. you can't really be saying a small POWER COSMIC 'upgrade' allowed him to somehow do more harm to GALACTUS? 😑 were he actually using the PC as an upgrade, g should simply be able to drain it from him as he has with every other herald. beyond that, adding morg's power would be next to meaningless and certainly wouldn't lead to the accomplishments of the feats you're describing. not to mention you're using events and feats almost 10 YEARS after that orb incident to support the fact that the orb upgraded him? c'mon goob. i luv ya, and respect your opinion like i do bran's, but that's not gonna cut it. give me some feats that show he was upgraded immediately FOLLOWING the supposed power-up and i may be willing to concede. 😬

in his history, his 'power-ups' have come from a retconned hotu, a 'gift' from death and . . . bionics. 😕 eating his doppleganger didn't really do anything at all except give him insight into the magus's plan and more esoterically 'make him whole'. whatever the hell THAT means . . . anyway, it didn't actually 'double his power', or make him 'twice' as strong (or really do ANYTHING at all to his power-level) so i don't see how you call that an upgrade. 😬

as much a part of him trying to obtain greater power, is his quest for knowledge. what's more, his motive for getting the orb was stated quite clearly in the mini -- he wanted people to fear him again. it was a story about his regaining his rep, not about acquiring a 'bauble'. a power-up was NOT what he was after this time around. nor do i think he found one. did he learn from the orb? undoubtedly. could the knowledge have aided him if he met tyrant again? sure, why not? did he somehow transfer the power of the orb and integrate it into himself? i see no reason or evidence (not 10 years removed from the incident and explainable by yet ANOTHER 'power-up'😉 whatsoever to believe that was the case.

ps--didn't starfox battle him h2h for a while in that same time-period you're talking about? that would certainly go down as a lower showing if it wasn't retconned or something that is . . .

But after rereading Thanos's encounter with Tyrant, I'm a little more inclined to agree with you on Thanos receiving an actual power upgrade. The reason behind my change of heart is this scan...

The orb wasn't a power up device in the first place, it was just an energy reserve. That means that there's a very good chance that Thanos was just using it to sustain a higher level of amping than he normally does without expending a lot of extra power in his fight with Tyrant. And since we KNOW that Thanos utilizes an energy reserve(talked about in his fight with Odin) it's more likely that he just added the power to that reserve than actually boost himself permanantly. But whether you want to look at it as a power up, or an energy supply, or just a trophy, Thanos showing higher levels of power just before his death still validates his fight with Tyrant.

And the fight with Eros was from the Celestial Quest Saga, so it's not valid due to it being a clone.

Originally posted by darthgoober
But even though Marvel MIGHT have rectoned the End into being non cannon, they also said that something similar happened in the 616 universe also. That means that a power up is still entirely possible, and it's still supported on panel a couple of issues before the Galactus and Maker feats. And the fact that Thanos doesn't have many showings to his credit until 10 years after the fact is easily explainable, pretty much every showing he had in those 10 years was later rectoned to be a clone. But if you really need SOME indication of an upgrade in between that period, you can take a look at his showings against Walker(who's at least on par with Odin, and was likely more powerful since he was a Death God backed by the souls of billions and billions of beings and actually had the power to destroy Death). Remember how even though Thanos kept getting up against Odin he was still getting knocked around pretty bad? Well against Walker he was only knocked down once, and none of Walker's actual blast did anything more than stagger Thanos.

or it could be a result of his simply having battled in his own book and having a little better showing. a better showing does not imply a power-up. 😬

But after rereading Thanos's encounter with Tyrant, I'm a little more inclined to agree with you on Thanos receiving an actual power upgrade. The reason behind my change of heart is this scan...

The orb wasn't a power up device in the first place, it was just an energy reserve. That means that there's a very good chance that Thanos was just using it to sustain a higher level of amping than he normally does without expending a lot of extra power in his fight with Tyrant. And since we KNOW that Thanos utilizes an energy reserve(talked about in his fight with Odin) it's more likely that he just added the power to that reserve than actually boost himself permanantly. But whether you want to look at it as a power up, or an energy supply, or just a trophy, Thanos showing higher levels of power just before his death still validates his fight with Tyrant.

cool. that makes perfect sense to me. still not sure what this whole validation issue is you have. without the orb, he was getting a beat-down. when he recovered and used the orb's energies, the battle was much closer. his feats before his death were likely a result of the hotu power-up, imo, and had nothing whatever to do with the orb at all.

And the fight with Eros was from the Celestial Quest Saga, so it's not valid due to it being a clone.

ah. didn't know that. 👆

Originally posted by leonidas
or it could be a result of his simply having battled in his own book and having a little better showing. a better showing does not imply a power-up. 😬

Originally posted by leonidas
cool. that makes perfect sense to me. still not sure what this whole validation issue is you have. without the orb, he was getting a beat-down. when he recovered and used the orb's energies, the battle was much closer. his feats before his death were likely a result of the hotu power-up, imo, and had nothing whatever to do with the orb at all.

Originally posted by leonidas
ah. didn't know that. 👆