Originally posted by Burning thought
No theres no chances, thats the problem your inventing that rule yourself, chances are the developers just decided not to have the same abilities in every game and wanted players to try new ones, simple.
show me it again, i rememebr thinking of it as some kind of ball, not a blast like a nuke....
Its not a blasts like a nuke, however; a detonated nuke releases a destructive energy, and thats just what Holy is, destructive energy.
lol the guy cant even fly, he can float and teleport, thats all he needs to get places, Sephiroth takes boats and walks half the time, flying prob knocks him out completly, he prob needs a long sleep afterwards lol...
With what? wolverine is not the best example, he would knock cloud and Sephiroth with ease as well for the same reasons, prob is, Kain just soul destroys him.
Can't say the same for Kain, he's never demonstrated any speed feats, strength feats, or any feats for that matter.
no, your calling htem common grunts, thats your words not any games or official info, i could call Sephiroth just some shemale who gets pwend by an emo, but you wouldnt, in the game they are vampires, humans, demons, theres no enemy Kain technically cannot use it against apart from in-game (game mechanic) he cannot use it on those with the title of "boss" (also a game mechanic). YOU have to prove a character can defend from having its soul destroyed, your argument of "zomg pyronz is biggerror!!! he cannot possibly be defeateds!!!" is not worth a penny, a dime, or even a yen, barely a German Mark from the depression.
your list of games does not mean anything either ,see my first point. And you dont see a lot of things in SR and SR 2, he doesnt use many abilities at all, especially since you dont play as him so thats moot, BO 2 its young kain after being defeated, lost his reaver and his memory, Defiance Kain should have a lot of powers like teleport and super jumping under player control but in the game you see Kain teleport in a movie and players can only turn into bats or jump long distances at special points unlike in BO 2, all these ability options are gameplay, thing is none of it means he has lost the old powers.
there is no logic, thats why its false you see
😆
Lets look at it for a second, champ.
Logic: Its only in the gameplay of one game in the series, not seen, heard or mentioned anywhere else in the series. Common sense tells us that gameplay =/= story, in any game or series.
Your "logic: ZOMG!!!11 Kain is teh best! He has all dese feets and dey are kanon!!!!111
right its not like a nukes blast then, i rest my case...also can you show me where it states holy can destroy the planet? your case either way is broken, nothing there would mean Holy is hard to stop, its a wave of energy then, not a ball, a small wave spread of energy in comparison to a nukes massive all directonal blast, the wave is simply stopped by Sephiroths force, easy, anyone with TK would be able to do that unless they can only move big things like blocks and such, but then there still nothing showing Holy is hard to hold......show me Sephiroth stopping it please.
Now your logic is basically dead as your fanboyism for FF rots every ounce of logic, as if Kain wouldnt just mist and escape if he even bothered to, id be surprised if Wolverine could even cut Kain, hes not got the strength of 30+ tons. what? lmao, well according to you they are, according to me Kain is far above Sephiroth and cloud and would take them double time with ease.
Have you used death on tougher monsters? does death say on it in confirmation it doesnt, or does it give a reason why? like the tougher ones are bosses, because you kno thats balance, as in..gameplay
Pyron loses his soul, hes dead, like anyone else.....hes got no defence unforatley his size doesnt give him any defence. going by your logic if a human is so much bigger than a germ, massively bigger...we are immune and cannot be harmed by any germs? riiiggghhhttt
no he loses his memory at the beginning of BO 2, he regains it thanks to the help of the Cabal telling him what happened, then you have to take into account this is not BO 2 kain were debating, this is top of the line Elder Kain, who has had both memory lines in his memory, so Elder Kain would still remember, also technically, the spells are not optional. Sephiroth and many other characters in Fiction have oppertunities, they dont always use it and the makers of the game dont always want them to....
but anyway:
Originally posted by Terryc250
No one suddenly loses all their abilities without any reason, he doesn't use anything in AC because he chose not to, does that mean he doesn't have it? No.
couldnt agree more durlaugh thanks for clearing this all up
Originally posted by Terryc250
Yeah, and Cloud should go around busting out Death materia on everyone, now he's a god killer! Pyron will fall before Clouds Death materia
god killer? well sure, god is just a title, Kain is also a God, since he has the title, although if death is like most materia, its not specific to Cloud, and so you would have to add it to him, but sure if it kills anything then Pyron waiting around (FF spells are so slow) then he is going to die depending ofc on how it works, Sin harvest for example is to do with sins, a sinless being will not be harmed.
Originally posted by fascistcrusader
Your "logic: ZOMG!!!11 Kain is teh best! He has all dese feets and dey are kanon!!!!111
"w8s for another post to pwn again"
I agree with burning thought that Kane should be granted his soul-stealing attack. Heres my question to him: If Sephiroth doesnt have a soul, what other attacks could Kane use to defeat him?
The Holy feat isn't very detailed in the FFVII story, there are reasons to think the destruction caused by Holy in the ending sequence isn't the same as when its inert deep in the planet. One reason could be that Holy has lots of what is called in physics "potential energy" like a ball on a hill, rather than kinetic energy. In light of this, I would be skeptical about this particular feat of Sephiroth's. What other feats does he have that indicate he could defeat Kane?
If Sephiroth has no soul then Kain should be easily able to use Spirit wrack and possess Sephiroths body, then leave the body, making it dissipate, other things Kain could do include varied sword attacks, teh reaver is incredibly powerful blade, meaning Sephiroth would certainyl have a harder time against it than most FF swords ive seen thats for sure especially the Buster, if you belive Kain is blitzable by sephiroth (even tho he has no Blitzability from shown evidence, just heightened speed) then Kain can use his own TK to disable sephiroth OR Kain could use his time reaver to slow time, that means Sephiroth is pretty much destroyed from the get go because he wont be able to barely move as he is slowed in time, the reaver has a range to the area it can slow time so Kain could teleport next to sephiroth to effect him OR simply w8 for Sephiroth to attempt this "blitz" and fall into the time area...one frozen/slowed then there are so many ways Kain could win from using his blade to freezeing Sephiroth completly in time with incapaciate.
its "kain" but yes as i said, theres nothing to suggest through any logic that Holy is a feat and should not be used, its inconclusive, its like me saying something everyone else thinks is ridiculous but still using it as a feat for kain even if it has no real proof or proper logic, if Terry can use logic the likes of which allow Sephiroth TK to control holy and that he belives holy is hard to hold then i should be just as able to use the concepts Kain has power over.
Judging by the case you gave here, Kain could beat Sephiroth. I recall Sephiroth having the ability to become intangible, so I will assume Kain's weapons could harm an intangible opponent. Another objection might be that Sephiroth's own TK would allow him to speedblitz Kain, but I don't see why Kain's own TK couldnt be applied in at least as many situations as Sephiroth's.
The only time ive seen sephiroth be intangible was an incredibly slow moving through a floor, and yes Kain damages ghosts, wraiths, the reaver eats souls and it can hit the Elder God, if it can hit the Elder God who is half sepctoral immaterial being, ethereal and half not on the material reality anyway then the reaver is likely to hit sephiroth if not definatley.
Well Kain can teleport fairly quickly out of TK to escape attacks so that would reduce any effectiveness of a Blitz, same with the fact Kain can become mist, so Kain can technically become intangible and would be nigh untouchable anyway to Sephiroth if he becomes mist/teleports, Kain even has Pyrokinesis to set flammable objects alight, if the wort comes to the worst he could just burn off Sephiroths clothes and make him dance with sword slashes lawlz, Kain would just TK sephiroths sword away from him also.
I agree that teleporting would avoid the TK, Sephiroth hasn't demonstrated a sufficient battle awareness to be able to TK continuously and prevent a counterattack from his opponent, after a successful evasion. Kain would take the match.
The next order of business, perhaps for another thread, would be establishing that Sephiroth would not be able to defeat Kain in any percentage of their matches. That would be harder because we would have to count possible mistakes made by Kain.
IMO we have established that Sephiroth is on a level of power no greater than Kain. No doubt FF fanboys will find this counterintuitive, but thats logic.
Originally posted by Burning thought
right its not like a nukes blast then, i rest my case...also can you show me where it states holy can destroy the planet? your case either way is broken, nothing there would mean Holy is hard to stop, its a wave of energy then, not a ball, a small wave spread of energy in comparison to a nukes massive all directonal blast, the wave is simply stopped by Sephiroths force, easy, anyone with TK would be able to do that unless they can only move big things like blocks and such, but then there still nothing showing Holy is hard to hold......show me Sephiroth stopping it please.
Now your logic is basically dead as your fanboyism for FF rots every ounce of logic, as if Kain wouldnt just mist and escape if he even bothered to, id be surprised if Wolverine could even cut Kain, hes not got the strength of 30+ tons. what? lmao, well according to you they are, according to me Kain is far above Sephiroth and cloud and would take them double time with ease.
Wolverine WOULD beat Kain, Kain is not fast or anything, Wolverine decapitates him.
Have you used death on tougher monsters? does death say on it in confirmation it doesnt, or does it give a reason why? like the tougher ones are bosses, because you kno thats balance, as in..gameplay
Pyron loses his soul, hes dead, like anyone else.....hes got no defence unforatley his size doesnt give him any defence. going by your logic if a human is so much bigger than a germ, massively bigger...we are immune and cannot be harmed by any germs? riiiggghhhttt
Has he ever used it in canon? No.
Has he ever used it outside of gameplay? No.
Has he ever used it on anyone but a common grunt? No.
Does it work on tougher opponents in the game? No.
Would it work on Pyron? No.
Has the spell ever appeared again after BO1? No.
no he loses his memory at the beginning of BO 2, he regains it thanks to the help of the Cabal telling him what happened, then you have to take into account this is not BO 2 kain were debating, this is top of the line Elder Kain, who has had both memory lines in his memory, so Elder Kain would still remember, also technically, the spells are not optional. Sephiroth and many other characters in Fiction have oppertunities, they dont always use it and the makers of the game dont always want them to....
couldnt agree more durlaugh thanks for clearing this all up
See the difference?
god killer? well sure, god is just a title, Kain is also a God, since he has the title, although if death is like most materia, its not specific to Cloud, and so you would have to add it to him, but sure if it kills anything then Pyron waiting around (FF spells are so slow) then he is going to die depending ofc on how it works, Sin harvest for example is to do with sins, a sinless being will not be harmed.
Sin Harvest has nothing to do with Sins, Sin Harvest is actually Heartless Angel, it just brings you to the brink of death, now are we going to start saying that Sephiroth can do it on Pyron? No, its a gameplay move just like spirit death is.. it was never done in the canon storyline.
Originally posted by JerseyMage
I agree with burning thought that Kane should be granted his soul-stealing attack. Heres my question to him: If Sephiroth doesnt have a soul, what other attacks could Kane use to defeat him?The Holy feat isn't very detailed in the FFVII story, there are reasons to think the destruction caused by Holy in the ending sequence isn't the same as when its inert deep in the planet. One reason could be that Holy has lots of what is called in physics "potential energy" like a ball on a hill, rather than kinetic energy. In light of this, I would be skeptical about this particular feat of Sephiroth's. What other feats does he have that indicate he could defeat Kane?
That Soul stealing attack was strictly gameplay, it was an optional spell, it only worked on common grunts, was never mentioned in in canon, never done in canon, never heard of again after BO1, its a gameplay move just like supernova, and heartless angel was.
Holy is the antithesis of Meteor, its atleast as powerful as Meteor is, Bugenhagon said it could even end humanity as it is, its a powerful wave of energy with enough force to disintegrate meteor, Sephiroths willpower stopped it in its tracks, even the creator praises Sephiroths willpower as being "extremely powerful, nothing stronger, nothing above it", not only did he stop Holy, he held 8 people at the same time in the air with his will while torturing them, in AC he brought down the top of the entire shinra building with a thought.
In AC Sephiroth has the power of the negative lifestream, the lifestream is source of all power, magic, energy, life, etc on the entire planet, Sephiroth took control by tainting the lifestream with J-cells, creating a plague, he even created 3 remnants, who have power to rival Kain himself, Sephiroth is far superior to Kain.
Originally posted by Terryc250
By Bugenhagons words, the thing about Nukes is that the energy fades away, Holy is permanant energy, that "small wave" was the size of the biggest city on the planet. Holy is a destructive energy, with enough force to destroy everything, common sense and logic says its difficult to hold.rofl, your still tryign to push that stupid Kain can survive 30 ton hits crap? Yeah and Cloud can survive 60 tons ontop of him, but obviously it didn't matter to Sephiroth sword now did it? According to you, Kain is above Jedah, Pyron, Sephirotyh, Dante, Hyubasa at the same time rofl, does that make it true? Haha yeah right.
Wolverine WOULD beat Kain, Kain is not fast or anything, Wolverine decapitates him.
Works on all monsters, but doesn't work on tough opponents like bosses, but according to you thats just "gameplay".
Spirit Death is an optional spell,
Has he ever used it in canon? No.
Has he ever used it outside of gameplay? No.
Has he ever used it on anyone but a common grunt? No.
Does it work on tougher opponents in the game? No.
Would it work on Pyron? No.
Has the spell ever appeared again after BO1? No.Well it seems like he hasn't remembered his spells, because its never heard of again after BO1, either they weren't canon in the first place, or the creators retconned them.
Thing is, its actually PROVEN canon that Sephiroth has power over the NL, not only was it part of the canon storyline, it was stated by the creators themselves, and not only that, Sephiroth even summoned it in AC.
See the difference?
Yeah and you still haven't proven that Kain is the only vampire capable of learning the spells.
Sin Harvest has nothing to do with Sins, Sin Harvest is actually Heartless Angel, it just brings you to the brink of death, now are we going to start saying that Sephiroth can do it on Pyron? No, its a gameplay move just like spirit death is.. it was never done in the canon storyline.
NO it doesnt, your broken logic does, theres no logic in thinking just because something is powerful its hard ot hold, theres no logic in that simple
Well sure, because Kain has abilities that allow him to both control and use most of them against their own team, has a resurrection and has many abilities to wreck them all, Sephiroth nor most other gaming icons do not.
Wolverine decapitates Sephiroth while his fanboys go on about unseen speed feats, broken logic AND to make sephiroth even more powerful he can be charging one of his one hour spells
its about 40 tons actually, likely more and no, your using balance induced gameplay, what Raziel was manipulating is a static piece that is not affected by balance and such (I dont know why i repeat myself over and over, you dont even read my posts most likely, ive said this before and youve never refuted it)
well yeh. show me when "Boss" is said in canon game....please point out where the term "bosses" over a characters head is canon, i mean honestly your falling further down your bottomless pit, especially since half the bosses are humans.
Has he spoken about it in canon? yes, just like most cutscenes characters dont ALWAYS use the ability, some speak of it, its in the script, its canon.
is it optional? no (no more than half of fictonal games items characters gain in story games like Kratos' spells, Dantes abilities...their all canon)
Has he used it on Demons, vampires AND humans to show a broad range of targets? Yes
Does it unbalance gameplay by allowing Bosses to be beaten in one shot? No, that would take ALL challenge away from the game and is unbalancing, gameplay ofc.
Has the spell ever been canonically or officially dismissed? no.....
Is Terry losing it because of his holds on constant gamepaly mechanics? Yes
OR the developers simply did not want Kain to be using god knows how many abilities, knew it would be confusing for new poeple in the franchise and as well as more than 100 other reasons that beat down the likeliness of it being retconned, a character doesnt have to have an ability in every game for it to excist, same with items although spells are more important in this rule, you cant just put them away or make them disapear.
hasnt remembered...riiiiiigggghhhhttt, maybe Sephiroth couldnt remember any of his powers during AC then...shame
NL is only in one piece of fiction from what ive seen, AC, and ive sitll not been shown how its apart of him and is default to him in every debate.
Nobody proven that Dante is the only one capable of using half of his items and gained powers, same with Kratos' spells, the fact is nobody has to Terry, the characters who gain the power are the only ones who can use it unless another character in the fiction uses it.
brink of death under complete gameplay however, theres no logic or info on it making it a complete gameplay move. Although technically he could never cast anything on Pyron, Pyron is too fast for those slow casting spells.
Originally posted by Terryc250
That Soul stealing attack was strictly gameplay, it was an optional spell, it only worked on common grunts, was never mentioned in in canon, never done in canon, never heard of again after BO1, its a gameplay move just like supernova, and heartless angel was.Holy is the antithesis of Meteor, its atleast as powerful as Meteor is, Bugenhagon said it could even end humanity as it is, its a powerful wave of energy with enough force to disintegrate meteor, Sephiroths willpower stopped it in its tracks, even the creator praises Sephiroths willpower as being "extremely powerful, nothing stronger, nothing above it", not only did he stop Holy, he held 8 people at the same time in the air with his will while torturing them, in AC he brought down the top of the entire shinra building with a thought.
In AC Sephiroth has the power of the negative lifestream, the lifestream is source of all power, magic, energy, life, etc on the entire planet, Sephiroth took control by tainting the lifestream with J-cells, creating a plague, he even created 3 remnants, who have power to rival Kain himself, Sephiroth is far superior to Kain.
It worked on all "types" of spieces in the game, from Demon, vampire and human..... it was no more optional than many in fiction. Supernova and Heartless angel were never explained, show me where those moves are spoken off in detail by the characters, if it is then its canon, otherwise their just uncanon moves, but problem with Supernova and Heartless angel are that they are ALL gameplay, nothing on them to use them outside of it.
stopped it yes, unforatley thats nothing said for his TK, its destructive power is not connected to this, stop blowing out hot air. Same as i said for Holy, this is not real, the Shinra building by the video alone does not show him using any TK, he can just see it is falling off, anyone, even human would know if something as massive as the top of a building was going to drop, or would you be completly oblivious? (wouldnt surprise me), until you show another source, more official actually saying he did it other than your little assumptions.
lmao why do you lie constantly? your fanboyism says even 3 remants somehow do it? LMAO! your a joke Terry, not as much as FC but hell your not a funny one really, i laugh out of pity tbh, Kain would take on Sephiroth, Cloud the remnants and prob more besides with ease, oh and dont forget, the old NL is not the whole lifestream chuck.
Terry,
You say that Kain's soulstealing move is a game-play move like heartless angel and supernova. That doesn't trouble me, Sephiroth has access to his gameplay moves and Kain to his; thats a fair situation.
When I spoke of Sephiroth, I was thinking of his one-winged angel form. I wasn't considering his AC aspects, so its possible that the FFVII Sephiroth possessed powers only demonstrated in AC, or even performed new feats. In light of this, I'll hear your case for AC Sephiroth, and retract my earlier statement:
"IMO we have established that Sephiroth is on a level of power no greater than Kain."
Finally, I am still skeptical about the holy feat. Could you explain, using evidence, how the events in the game imply he was demonstrating a high level of TK powers?