Originally posted by Allankles
What's bizzare about actually being threatened in battle or having regrets about losing friend and wife because of your fears?And trully how many times has Vader lost his limbs? I can think of only a couple of occasions.
Vader is a model of what turning to the darkside means to a real person. SW has so many unconvincing dark siders, Vader is one of the few that trully embody what the dark side means.
I can think of only a handful other Sith who really demonstrate the difference between Jedi and Dark Jedi.
It is bizarre to me because I do not expect a Sith to cry and actually show weakness in an extreme way - a way that some humans in this universe do. A Sith should be stronger than that. Sidious or Nihilus or Bane (when he gets over his embarrassing teenage habit of getting beaten by old men) are nice and strong.
Anakin/Vader has the personality of a stereotypical "emo", and works like RoDV become a nuisance to read because of his constant wimperings.
You may disagree with my personal taste, but there is really little point.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I can compare your dislike of Vader for these reasons to my friend who forsook his political party because he didn't like the way the party leader gestured with his hands: both are symptoms of a fastidious creature who can't recognize the meaningful issues.Sorry. See Allankles' post.
There is little need to be sorry when we are talking about fantasy. Really, my personality and personal tastes should not be taken to heart by others in this thread.
Originally posted by Happy_SithVader at the time of Mustafar was a Sith in name only. His "fall" wasn't complete yet. For all intents and purposes he was just a really pissed off and confused Anakin, not Vader. But Vader circa ESB---does that fit your definition of Emo?
It is bizarre to me because I do not expect a Sith to cry and actually show weakness in an extreme way - a way that some humans in this universe do. A Sith should be stronger than that. Sidious or Nihilus or Bane (when he gets over his embarrassing teenage habit of getting beaten by old men) are nice and strong.Anakin/Vader has the personality of a stereotypical "emo", and works like RoDV become a nuisance to read because of his constant wimperings.
You may disagree with my personal taste, but there is really little point.
And to be fair, Nihilus hardly fit in with the Sith. The most he as a person really had in common with them was his greed.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Vader at the time of Mustafar was a Sith in name only. His "fall" wasn't complete yet. For all intents and purposes he was just a really pissed off and confused Anakin, not Vader. But Vader circa ESB---does that fit your definition of Emo?And to be fair, Nihilus hardly fit in with the Sith. The most he as a person really had in common with them was his greed.
And that is why it is just a matter of interpretation. Interpretation of a fantasy story. I know that you people like your debates, but something like this would go on forever since I have seen ESB and read most of the EU, post ROTJ. Even if I had not, what of it?
If I was not clear, I will say it again:
I do not like Darth Vader.
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I'm a curious guy, it's my nature. I need to know the reasons. So what is the reason why you think ESB Vader is an Emo?
I don't. I do not like him in ESB for other reasons. Against Luke, he leaves himself open to getting hit, which makes him look weak. Why does it happen? I do not care.
I care little about when he "really" becomes Vader, since it is only a name anyway. About as useful as arguing over different interpretations of the Bible or Koran.
It is not for me.
Originally posted by Happy_SithLol, well... you're pretty narrow minded and rigid then.
I don't. I do not like him in ESB for other reasons. Against Luke, he leaves himself open to getting hit, which makes him look weak. Why does it happen? I do not care.I care little about when he "really" becomes Vader, since it is only a name anyway. About as useful as arguing over different interpretations of the Bible or Koran.
It is not for me.
Originally posted by Happy_Sith
It is bizarre to me because I do not expect a Sith to cry and actually show weakness in an extreme way - a way that some humans in this universe do.
Vader doesn't cry, and his psychological hang ups don't turn him emo at all.
Originally posted by Happy_Sith
A Sith should be stronger than that. Sidious or Nihilus or Bane (when he gets over his embarrassing teenage habit of getting beaten by old men) are nice and strong.
Vader is one of the mightiest Sith, and without doubt the bravest of them. He's waded right into extremely dangerous situations and with his physical vulnerabilities, hasn't backed down (except on 1 or 2 occasions when it would have been entirely unwise to press the issue.
Originally posted by Happy_Sith
Anakin/Vader has the personality of a stereotypical "emo", and works like RoDV become a nuisance to read because of his constant wimperings.
I'd liked to see another Sith get chopped up burnt alive and put into a suit with cumbersome cybernetic limbs not complain a little bit, keep in mind Anakin is not even 25 when this happened.
I don't see a 23 year old Bane or Sidious coping with that situation any better than Vader, considering the circumstances (he just lost his wife and kids).
Originally posted by Happy_Sith
You may disagree with my personal taste, but there is really little point.
I can disagree when I don't see too much logic being applied. I don't demand that you like Vader, I just don't see a lot of logical assessment of the character and the dark side on your part.
And besides there's no criteria for what a Sith should be. People like Bane etc have hardly been tested to the extent that Vader was.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Bane was beaten up by his massive dad for about 18 years or so. It's not like his life was a cake-walk.
Also beaten up by Gerd (One of his father's friends[who later gets his thumb bitten off by Dessel via Force Precognition]) and other miners on Apatros.
You'll never know how Bane or Sidious would of coped unless they were put in those situations. Albeit Bane did realise that he used the Force to kill his dad (Hurst) by stopping his heart and then shies away from the Force.
Sidious however I have no idea i believe he'd be above emotional conflicts like that, that and he's smart enough to not get involved in the first place.
Originally posted by Darth Exodus
Bane was beaten up by his massive dad for about 18 years or so. It's not like his life was a cake-walk.
I don't think anyone denies that people can survive, Kyp Durron is another force user who had a hard life.
The issue I brought up wasn't about survival (Vader already did that) it's the idea that they wouldn't have complaints.
I'd feel more than a bit of self pity if I landed in the same situation after Mustafaar, but that self pity would never be classifed as emo, and however you read RODV Vader wasn't emo at all in the way he coped with his phyiscal handicap.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
We are talking about Star Wars here. Not the real world. The only thing Sidious was worried about was losing his power, and dying.
Sidious is introduced in SW as an already aging man, well accustomed to power both the physical power of the force and the power of leadership via the senate.
If you examined a 23 year old Sidious I bet you'd find a very different individual, one not yet completely entrenched in the dark side.
Originally posted by DorianYates
I bet he was an extremely horny individual that fell to the dark side to take revenge on married women and then fell even further wanting to rule teh galaxy.
Heh! How about we make him a jedi who was initially a slave (and thereby influenced by his ties to his only parent and slave mother).
Let's assume that Sidious flaw was not an increasingly possessive relationship with the hot Amidala, but merely a lust for power.
Now let's assume then, that in is his quest to gain this power, he is wounded severely by his forme master and then turned into a cyborg complete with somewhat cumbersome new limbs.
Is he going to have some self pity? Yes, perfectly natural, does it turn him emo? Hell no, not if you understand what being emo means.
Originally posted by Allankles
Sidious is introduced in SW as an already aging man, well accustomed to power both the physical power of the force and the power of leadership via the senate.If you examined a 23 year old Sidious I bet you'd find a very different individual, one not yet completely entrenched in the dark side.
I think that is why Lucas cancelled the Plaguies novel.
Originally posted by Allankles
No human being is above emotional conflicts of one kind or another.
Yes one kind or another. For instance my usual weakness is compassion. Then were discussing the troubles Anakin/Vader went through, would Sidious cope if there positions would be reversed?
My second point is that would Sidious be stupid enough to get into that scenario Anakin was in?