Originally posted by debbiejo
And it's crazy to think so. That would also mean that all inventions are evil. Everything starts with imagination. It would also mean that god was evil because first god would have to IMAGINE it's creation first before setting fouth in motion.
how do you get to that that all invetions are evil?? yes of-cause God first imagined what he wanted to create, all things start with imagination the second most powerfull spirit in the universe, the next thing is to invent a plan of action and only then it is created.
Originally posted by debbiejo
Logos - Longer definition: The Greek word logos (traditionally meaning word, thought, principle, or speech) has been used among both philosophers and theologians. In most of its usages, logos is marked by two main distinctions - the first dealing with human reason, idea (the rationality in the human mind which seeks to attain universal understanding and harmony), the second with universal intelligence (the universal ruling force governing and revealing through the cosmos to humankind, i.e., the Divine), natural process...ie creative process.The OT never gave it a gender.
Also a bit more of the emptology.
1. Philosophy
a. In pre-Socratic philosophy, the principle governing the cosmos, the source of this principle, or human reasoning about the cosmos.
b. Among the Sophists, the topics of rational argument or the arguments themselves.
c. In Stoicism, the active, material, rational principle of the cosmos; nous. Identified with God, it is the source of all activity and generation and is the power of reason residing in the human soul.
2. Judaism
a. In biblical Judaism, the word of God, which itself has creative power and is God's medium of communication with the human race.
b. In Hellenistic Judaism, a hypostasis associated with divine wisdom.
3. Christianity In Saint John's Gospel, especially in the prologue (1:1-14), the creative word of God, which is itself God and incarnate in Jesus. Also called Word.
Logos etymology
your quote;[The OT never gave it a gender.]
absolutely it does; Gen 1:27 clearly says that God = male and female in one body.
Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
That's kind of irrelevant to the point. Jesus existed. We know that. And to some, he was God incarnate. So God is not invisible.
god is like a coin, two sides but one coin. God = visible and invisible, darkness and light. the visible side of God = Satan and the invisible side = Christ/Son of man/the word which is invisible.
human is the Mother of the Son of man/Christ.
The root word of god is El for Elohim . The word "theophory" refers to the practice of embedding the name of a god or a deity in, usually, a proper name. Much Hebrew theophory occurs in the Bible, particularly in the Old Testament. The most prominent theophory involves
Names referring to El, a Levantine deity, and later a word meaning might, power and (a) god in general, and hence God.
names referring to Yah, a Levantine deity, and also cognate to Yahweh
names referring to Levantine deities (especially the storm god, Hadad) by the epiphet Baal, meaning lord. In later times, as the conflict between the Mosaic law and the more popular pagan practices became increasingly intense, these names were censored and Baal was replaced with Bosheth, meaning shameful one. And Babel, Bab-El, BethEL meaning house of god. The name Ehyeh (Hebrew: àÆäÀéÆä) denotes God's potency in the immediate future.
The word El appears in other northwest Semitic languages such as Phoenician and Aramaic. In Akkadian, ilu is the ordinary word for god. It is also found in Old South Arabian and in Ethiopic, and, as in Hebrew, it is often used as an element in proper names. In northwest Semitic texts it often appears to be used of one single god, perhaps the head of the pantheon, sometimes specifically said to be the creator.
El (Hebrew: àì) is used in both the singular and plural, both for other gods and for the God of Israel. As a name of God, however, it is used chiefly in poetry and prophetic discourse, rarely in prose, and then usually with some epithet attached, as "a jealous God." Other examples of its use with some attribute or epithet are: El `Elyon ("Most High God"😉, El Shaddai ("God Almighty"😉, El `Olam ("Everlasting God"😉, El Hai ("Living God"😉, El Ro'i ("God of Seeing"😉, El Elohe Israel ("God, the God of Israel"😉, El Gibbor ("God of Strength"😉. In addition, names such as Gabriel ("Strength of God"😉, Michael ("He Who is Like God"😉, Raphael ("God's medicine"😉 and Daniel ("God is My Judge"😉 use God's name in a similar fashion.
Why I Reject Hell
Why I Reject Hell....
This is not a "What Is Hell" ? Thread. This is not an Anti-Christian, Anti-Jew, Anti-Muslim thread.
This is not a "What is Hell to you" ? thread.
And this is not a "Do you beleive in Hell or not"? thread.
So please...just read this first, before you make your answer, and moderators, please read this carefully and consider before you decide to merge this with the other "Hell" threads we have on the Religion Forum.
I asked two questions long ago, or more likely, posed two statements long ago which were NEVER ANSWERED in any other Hell-related thread when asked. They were either ignored, forgotten about, or lost in the conversation of other topics surrounding Hell.
So this thread..is ONLY FOR THE PURPOSE of trying to make sense of these two specific problems which the Concept of Hell causes.
Putting aside all my perceptions towards Religion, Christianity, Islam etc. I cannot accept the Concept of Hell- because it does not make sense of me AT ALL- and these reasons are why:
************************************************************
1) According to all Three Monotheistic Religions, Christianity-Islam-Judaism- God's love for you is so great, that it even surpasses the love your parents would have for you. It surpasses the love you would have for your children. God is pure LOVE, and therefore his Love is CLEAN, untainted, and far more deep than we can imagine.
So if that is the case...then how could God reject you to Hell for not believing in him, or disobeying him, or not repenting, etc. ?
The logical/moral problem becomes this:
Your mother and father, who love you every much (if they do) would never send you to Hell, or allow you to go there. Ever. So why would God ?
You, loving your children (or whoever) with all your heart, would NEVER send your children/loved ones to Hell, for ANY REASON WHAT-SO-EVER. So why would God ?
It is one thing to insult someone you love. Or punish them. Or even betray them. But if you truly loved someone, you would NEVER send them, banish them to, consign them, or allow them to endure Eternal Torment of any kind.
So why would God ?
If God is supposed to love you with all his heart, deeper and greater than anyone else can love you, then how could he POSSIBLY allow you to suffer Eternal Torment for disobeying him ? That is beyond punishment, that is the antithesis of Love in any form.
****************************
2) Let's say you end up in Heaven. You did whatever your religion told you to do, you repented, you were faithful...whatever. Your reward is Heaven. You are united with God for all eternity, to be with him, in all his Glory, free from the mortal realm forever.
However....
You find out someone you Love is in Hell.
Your mother, father, brother, sister, lover, freind, son, daughter, etc. They did not beleive what you beleived, they did not follow your God. Now they will suffer eternal torment, never to be with you again.
How could you possibly be happy in Heaven ? How can Heaven be Heaven without those you love to be there with you ?
Could you simply forget someone you love ? Just ignore thier pain and suffering? If so, you never truly loved them, did you ?
Some people say God will erase your memory of your loved ones, so you can be happy. But that would make God a deciever and a liar if he did such a thing, for he is hiding the Truth from you.
So I ask you....How could you possibly be eternally Happy in Heaven, when someone you love or care about is suffering in Hell ? Heaven, won't really be Heaven then, will it ?
***********************************************************
Moderators...please consider leaving this thread be. I know we already have a topic on Hell, but my two questions were NEVER ANSWERED. Ever. In those threads, they were ignored, and forgotten.
I would LOVE to see JIA, or Marcello, or Nellinator, or Sithsaber, or anyone who beleives in Heaven and Hell so strongly, to answer this for me.
I want these two questions/problems to be the focus of this thread. This thread is intended alone for these two problems to be solved. I want someone with a Theological mind set to stop ignoring them, man up, and answer them.
This is why I cannot accept Hell.
Hell poses these two problems, which very few people actually think about, and in my experience, very few Theists are willing to face.
Someone, please answer this for me. Once and for all.
I will appreciate all input, as long as it it serious and remains on topic. Thanks.
because god either doesnt exist or he does and when you die it is the end. if there is a god it was i think the term was creationist god. he created the world and stepped the **** back. he plays no more role than water molecule. he does nothing except watch. so i dont believe that hell exists. and if it does then of course you are correct.
what possible reason, could someone with "eternal love" condemn you to suffer for? it is non sensical. but i do remember a passage someone once quoted to me. mind you it isnt word for word but here goes, at the end of time god will come to the earth and hell and bring all of his children into heaven. perhaps that is incorrect but it is what i remember. so ull only be suffering for a billion years. fun fun fun
Re: Why I Reject Hell
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
[b]1) According to all Three Monotheistic Religions, Christianity-Islam-Judaism- God's love for you is so great, that it even surpasses the love your parents would have for you. It surpasses the love you would have for your children. God is pure LOVE, and therefore his Love is CLEAN, untainted, and far more deep than we can imagine.So if that is the case...then how could God reject you to Hell for not believing in him, or disobeying him, or not repenting, etc. ?
The logical/moral problem becomes this:
Your mother and father, who love you every much (if they do) would never send you to Hell, or allow you to go there. Ever. So why would God ?
You, loving your children (or whoever) with all your heart, would NEVER send your children/loved ones to Hell, for ANY REASON WHAT-SO-EVER. So why would God ?
It is one thing to insult someone you love. Or punish them. Or even betray them. But if you truly loved someone, you would NEVER send them, banish them to, consign them, or allow them to endure Eternal Torment of any kind.
So why would God ?
If God is supposed to love you with all his heart, deeper and greater than anyone else can love you, then how could he POSSIBLY allow you to suffer Eternal Torment for disobeying him ? That is beyond punishment, that is the antithesis of Love in any form.[/b]
God is justice and righteousness; God is the punisher of sin.
Let us say that a judge has a child who is being charged with murder. This child is clearly guilty, and the judge is allowed to sentence whatever he wishes. He can let the child out free, or he can sentence the child.
Which is the just thing to do?
Is it fair to give preferential treatment to the child because s/he is kin of the judge? Is it just? Is it right?
Absolutely not! Laws are there to be upheld--and those who do not uphold them deserve to be punished.
God has set forth the Law, that blood must be shed in order to atone for any sin. For the unsaved, that blood is the second death. For the saved, that blood is the blood of Christ.
God follows His rules, and those rules are that atonement must be made. God, in His infinite love and mercy, gave us a way to be released from our sin: in the past, it was through the bloodshed of sacrifices, but now, it is through the sacrifice of Christ.
Humans are biased. Our minds are clouded by emotion, be it rage, sorrow, or love; we cannot make decisions of great magnitude while under the influence of powerful emotion without regretting some aspect of it--after an incident, one might regret telling someone off, or one might regret not telling someone off, for instance.
Only God can see perfect justice.
2) Let's say you end up in Heaven. You did whatever your religion told you to do, you repented, you were faithful...whatever. Your reward is Heaven. You are united with God for all eternity, to be with him, in all his Glory, free from the mortal realm forever.However....
You find out someone you Love is in Hell.
Your mother, father, brother, sister, lover, freind, son, daughter, etc. They did not beleive what you beleived, they did not follow your God. Now they will suffer eternal torment, never to be with you again.
How could you possibly be happy in Heaven ? How can Heaven be Heaven without those you love to be there with you ?
Could you simply forget someone you love ? Just ignore thier pain and suffering? If so, you never truly loved them, did you ?
Some people say God will erase your memory of your loved ones, so you can be happy. But that would make God a deciever and a liar if he did such a thing, for he is hiding the Truth from you.
So I ask you....How could you possibly be eternally Happy in Heaven, when someone you love or care about is suffering in Hell ? Heaven, won't really be Heaven then, will it ?[/b]
Perhaps God will allow us to know but take the sting of sorrow from us. Perhaps we will no longer concern ourselves with such things but instead focus on heavenly things alone.
I don't know. Little clear description of heaven and hell are given in the Bible. We only know that heaven is a good place with weird creatures and God, and we only know that hell is hot, dark, and parched.
Putting aside all theories of how hell will go down, let's just assume it is unpleasant.
1) Now, God created heaven as a place of paradise for those that believe in Him and serve Him according to their calling. Heaven was not created for everyone He loves. God set down the way to get to heaven. So, when we are disobedient and refuse to accept His authority we lose that privilege. Remember that God is our Father. If my son were disobedient to my simplest commands he would no longer be welcome in my house once he is of an age to act for himself. However, I would still love him and would willingly accept him back if he were to make up for his wrongdoings (ie. repent). That is much the same way as God works. What does God ask in turn? That we love and accept Jesus into our lives, receive the Holy Spirit and then lead a righteous life. That is one of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. Now people will say that the first part is too much to ask, but it really isn't imo. It would be no different than my son being a good citizen in every regard (or not, either way works), but continuously telling me that he doesn't appreciate me, thinks I'm a piece of garbage, and hopes I die a horrible death. I would not welcome that into my home. What would you do in such a situation?
2) This is a difficult question to answer because there are many things we don't know about heaven. What we do know is that there is no marriage, no gender, etc. after death. The Bible says we will be given new bodies, untainted by our sins. So, what will remain of our past lives, save our spirit? It's really a difficult question to answer because I don't know. I'd like to think that love between people is a spiritual thing because it certainly feels like it. Do I know for certain? No. Can we? Not that I'm aware of. Will we know each other by our spirits in heaven and not by personality? I don't know. I know that personality is something that causes many people to fall in love. Will that remain? Who knows? So will our past relationships be relevant? It's hard to say. If they are, then maybe heaven won't be as great. But I can tell you that even here on Earth we lose people. I've lost a great many people in my life that weren't saved when they died. It greatly pains me to think that they are suffering, but it doesn't stop me from continuing to live or from being happy as sad as it is.
That's the best I can do off the top of my head late at night.
Re: Re: Why I Reject Hell
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Like so many Christians today, you ignore the other characteristics of God and instead focus on "God is love." Do you know what else God is?
Yes, according to the Mythologies of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism God is other wondorful things besides cruel.
But the cruelty is still there in this mythical character, and that is what I am addressing here.
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
God is justice and righteousness; God is the punisher of sin.
Yeah, I got that part, but that doesn't answer my questions at all.
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Let us say that a judge has a child who is being charged with murder. This child is clearly guilty, and the judge is allowed to sentence whatever he wishes. He can let the child out free, or he can sentence the child.
Sentence the child TO WHAT THOUGH ?
A few years in prison, death penalty, or Eternal Torment ?
When does Reason come into all this ? You aren't answering my actual question 👇
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Which is the just thing to do?
Ofcourse you must punish the kid, but the punishment is what I question.
You would send the kid to Hell for eternal torment ? Isn't that a bit worse than what the child did ?
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Is it fair to give preferential treatment to the child because s/he is kin of the judge? Is it just? Is it right?
You aren't actually answering my question 👇
All you are trying to do is justify punishment. I agree in the value and validity of punishment, but NOT HELL.
How can Hell exist under the two problems I posed ?
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo\
Absolutely not! Laws are there to be upheld--and those who do not uphold them deserve to be punished.
Why don't you stop side stepping my questions, giving me half-assed over-used answers, and actually ANSWER THE QUESTIONS to the problems I posed about Hell ?
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
God has set forth the Law, that blood must be shed in order to atone for any sin. For the unsaved, that blood is the second death. For the saved, that blood is the blood of Christ.
That is your myth, I am uninterested 👇
I am discussing Hell. Not Christ, not Crucifixion, I am discussing Hell as Eternal Torment and as punishment, and how that totally contradicts "Pure Love" of God.
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
God follows His rules, and those rules are that atonement must be made. God, in His infinite love and mercy, gave us a way to be released from our sin: in the past, it was through the bloodshed of sacrifices, but now, it is through the sacrifice of Christ.
You are not answering my questions 👇
You are just feeding me mythology hoping it will answer the problematic logical contradictions I supplied you with about the Concept of Hell.
Either answer my two questions, or stop talking 👇
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Humans are biased. Our minds are clouded by emotion, be it rage, sorrow, or love; we cannot make decisions of great magnitude while under the influence of powerful emotion without regretting some aspect of it--after an incident, one might regret telling someone off, or one might regret not telling someone off, for instance.
Anyone with any rational mindset can see how Hell as Eternal punishment cannot exist under the Law of an "All-Loving God"
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Only God can see perfect justice.
Another Contradiction 👇
Eternal Torment as punishment for not satisfying an all powerful ego is not by any means, "perfect justice"
And who the hell are you to speak for God ?
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I believe that, in heaven, we will be able to fully understand the awesome justice of God. Perhaps this will mean that we too will see that the person deserved to go to hell, and we can celebrate God's justice while rejoicing in His mercy.
That's kind of a cop out though.
How do you imagine you can happy in Heaven, when someone you love is in Hell ?
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
Perhaps God will allow us to know but take the sting of sorrow from us. Perhaps we will no longer concern ourselves with such things but instead focus on heavenly things alone.
If God takes away your sorrow, then he is violating your Free Will.
If you ignore the suffering of someone you love, than how much do you truly love them ?
If your mother was in Hell, you can honestly say you will eventually stop caring once you reach Heaven ?
Wow...I would hate to have you as a son 👇
How selfish and egocentric of you, that you are more concerned with your own convienence than for the suffering of another, especially someone you are supposed to love 👇
Originally posted by Zeal Ex Nihilo
I don't know. Little clear description of heaven and hell are given in the Bible. We only know that heaven is a good place with weird creatures and God, and we only know that hell is hot, dark, and parched.
You still never really answered my question, but your assumptions that you may forget about your loved ones in Hell is atleast as honest as I think you could possibly be.
For that I thank you 👆
Re: Re: Why I Reject Hell
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Because you're gay.
AND PROUD
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
I didn't have to read all the other crap you typed.
Oh shut the **** up 👇
I doubt you even believe your own mythology any more 👇
Originally posted by Nellinator
Putting aside all theories of how hell will go down, let's just assume it is unpleasant.
Nellinator, I feel I can always count on you to be honest and direct with your answers 👆
You don't cop-out like Quiero Mota or Zeal Ex Nihilo
Originally posted by Nellinator
1) Now, God created heaven as a place of paradise for those that believe in Him and serve Him according to their calling. Heaven was not created for everyone He loves. God set down the way to get to heaven. So, when we are disobedient and refuse to accept His authority we lose that privilege. Remember that God is our Father. If my son were disobedient to my simplest commands he would no longer be welcome in my house once he is of an age to act for himself. However, I would still love him and would willingly accept him back if he were to make up for his wrongdoings (ie. repent). That is much the same way as God works. What does God ask in turn? That we love and accept Jesus into our lives, receive the Holy Spirit and then lead a righteous life. That is one of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control. Now people will say that the first part is too much to ask, but it really isn't imo. It would be no different than my son being a good citizen in every regard (or not, either way works), but continuously telling me that he doesn't appreciate me, thinks I'm a piece of garbage, and hopes I die a horrible death. I would not welcome that into my home. What would you do in such a situation?
Your analogy is very honest and very safe...a little too safe.
I say this, because I feel you are not actually tackling the problem I posed. Your analogy is very logical, very smart, and you manipulate the situation in a way where it only makes sense for one to not enter Heaven for his or her behavior.
However, this is the part you are not addressing: Eternal Torment. The Bible makes it very clear that this is what Hell is.
No matter how much my son or daughter insult me, I would always keep them in my house than let them suffer for all eternity in some horrid place like Hell.
My son and daughter are also thier own people, and I will not kick them out of my house just because they do not follow all my commands.
See, I'm not really that egotistic, where I would send someone out of my house to suffer for all eternity, just because they don't see me as their master. 👇
That's what being a Parent is about. Truly unconditional love, where you forgive your children even when they aren't sorry. Making sure they do not SUFFER NEEDLESSLY.
There is NO PARENT who truly loves thier child, who would EVER ALLOW thier child to suffer for all eternity, in ANY way, shape, or form.
So God, in my eyes, is a bad parent 👇
Originally posted by Nellinator
2) This is a difficult question to answer because there are many things we don't know about heaven. What we do know is that there is no marriage, no gender, etc. after death. The Bible says we will be given new bodies, untainted by our sins. So, what will remain of our past lives, save our spirit? It's really a difficult question to answer because I don't know. I'd like to think that love between people is a spiritual thing because it certainly feels like it. Do I know for certain? No. Can we? Not that I'm aware of. Will we know each other by our spirits in heaven and not by personality? I don't know. I know that personality is something that causes many people to fall in love. Will that remain? Who knows? So will our past relationships be relevant? It's hard to say. If they are, then maybe heaven won't be as great. But I can tell you that even here on Earth we lose people. I've lost a great many people in my life that weren't saved when they died. It greatly pains me to think that they are suffering, but it doesn't stop me from continuing to live or from being happy as sad as it is.
I think this is such an honest answer 👆
The problem I have, however, is that to argue that you would or may forget someone you love in Heaven, while they are in Hell, means one of two things:
1) God conceals your loved ones, so that you don't remember or feel them anymore
2) Your love for those you treasure is invalid and can be overpowered by another source of joy
Like you, yourself, said, I'd like to think my Love for those I care about is spiritual, deeper than just the superifical aspect of it. I beleive Love is the most powerful and most deep-rooted endurance we can imagine, and that is thier is an afterlife, that would not be forgotten.
If God truly loves you and wants you to be happy, he would have to allow you the memory of your loved ones, not to mention thier presence.
If God, in any way, conceals or hides the memory, presence, or feeling of your loved ones, than he is by default a Liar and Deciever.
Do you see the contradiction ?
Secondly, if you truly love your family and other loved ones, how can you allow yourself to forget them after death (assuming you exist after death) ?
Can you truly say you love those you love with all your heart, when you are more concerned for your own salvation, and could easily move past them in another plane of existance?
Think about that...please do me that favor, and just think about that...then come back to me.
Originally posted by Nellinator
That's the best I can do off the top of my head late at night.
You did a good job 👆
I sincerely appreciate your input, I feel that you are the only person who took my questions seriously. Thank you.
people are in abusive relationships all the time. if i had a son i loved who was old yet refused to accept the rules of my house{ a repressive concepts i dont generally believe in to begin with cause its egotistical} and they didnt. i wudnt have the heart or willingness or WILL to ever tell em theyr not welcome in my house. really same with a mate/lover. i cudnt do that if my fealing were anything RESEMBLING true love. heck id let em kill me willingly if i loved em.
i suppose god's love isnt really even close to what an average person in an abusive relationship can feal.
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
Oh shut the **** up 👇I doubt you even believe your own mythology any more 👇
Be honest, the fact that you're gay compromises your opinion of Heaven & Hell.
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
You don't cop-out like Quiero Mota or Zeal Ex Nihilo
I never cop-out, compa.
Originally posted by SpearofDestiny
I sincerely appreciate your input, I feel that you are the only person who took my questions seriously. Thank you.
I think its your own fault that no one takes your threads seriously, porque 99% of them are jokes anyways.
Originally posted by debbiejo
God's just into S&M.
Probably. I mean look at what he made his own son go through.
quiero mota. your honest and straight to the point. i like that someone who is of spanish decent, doesnt believe in god. i find that those from other countries have just as much belie or more of the christian god than some of our krazy christians.
i dont think being gay is biased against hell. i am an atheist and btw this is just my stance on homosexuality im rly not trying to bash at all sorry if it comes off that way, but i just think two men is nasty. thats all.
if you wanna be gay go ahead. i dont think eternal torment is really a smart option for either a personnal chance or how you were born. most gays claim that they were born that way, if tyhats so it must be by your rules gods will. otherwise it must be a birthdefect which i just dont believe since you dont believe in natural selection. therefore it must be the will of god(by your rules) that gays are born.
therefore if gays are wrong in gods eyes he must love torturing people.
hope i wasnt to contreversial but o well.