Originally posted by Galan007😆 😂 🤣 😂
No offense..But this has to be the most horrible/fanboyish retort, I've seen in a while.
"I don't think Darky was fighting very good, so that battle doesn't count". 😂
You're so funny nvr. 🙂
from now on thats my excuse. my charcater wasnt fighting correctly. damn writers and their vendettas against ds.
Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirlur pulling for this one. why wouldnt ds be there to defend his planet. i dont think hesa coward like u portray him. why would superman save an avatar it makes no sense.
Everyone else didn't have the sense to actually read the panels. Two eyes will tell you that DS clearly says that the Omega Beams are what he used. I could see if DD resisted the OE. then yeah, I would have to shut my mouth and take it. But I don't. No Omega Effect, No best shot from DS. 😛 Also, Did DS get an official power up. Becuz he seems far more powerful now than in that story? or maybe it was an Avatar. 😱
Originally posted by Galan007no the difference between he and i is huge. i dont call out pis. he hides behind it was an avatar and we havent see the true darkseid kinds of things. i back up with what i say by proof. new gods 15 didnt put out anything specifically. so all those bandwagoners who think it did are wrong.
I didn't debate your "points", because there's no...... point.. 😐You're to Darkseid, what quanchi is to Thanos...
After a while it just gets boring, you know? 🙂
thanos hangs with tyrant and odin while darkseid submits to superman. thanos hangs with tougher beings while ds taps out to lesser beings.
After each hit from SBP DD will evolve to withstand it. Remember HP DD evolves instantly on the fly. This is like Hulk except that DD doesn't need to get angry to get stronger or more durable but just take a hit. There is no way in hell SBP is beating someone who is this durable, this fast, this relentless, and evolves on the fly after each hit.
I say that after the first hit from SBP (if he even gets it in) the rest would most likely have little or no effect. So without BFR, SBP has no chance.
I missed this ...
Technically, NG#15 states that Darkseid has never lost but his avatars have. That was the whole point. "He prefers not to do so as they are so much weaker than his true form, they can even be beaten in battle if the opponent is strong enough." There's really no other way to interpret the comment. The prospect of losing in battle was put as something completely unprecedented to the "full" Darkseid, a shortcoming that has seperated the avatars from the real deal.
As for defending his planet, it really depends whether he had other obligations or not. You could say that using an avatar in any battle situation is cowardly. According to the story, DS does it when he has other things to do.
I'm happy disregarding the retcon because it's always disputed since it didn't specifically spell out which instances he was talking about. It seems like it's more trouble than it's worth. I just don't see how anyone can interpret what was stated in the comic any other way than the avatar claiming the true form had never lost. All it takes is basic reading comprehension using deductive logic.
Originally posted by quanchi112
sbprime wins. hes no pushover like ds has been in his past. read hunter and prey and see how well he did. he folded like a cheap suit.
Darkseid one shotted Doomsday (with a sucker blast). He had time to nonchalantly stroll to and from Doomsday's body and make a speech as he buried DD under melted rubble.
Doomsday destroyed Darkseid with a sneak attack, but he didn't knock Darkseid incoherent with one shot the way DS did to him. It took him 4 cutting attacks to incapacitate DS, and Seid was still coherent when the attack was cut off panel.
While Darkseid jobbed to Doomsday, he also looked more powerful offensively. Look at the fight in practical terms. What would happen if they met face to face? There's no way Doomsday would get a clean slicing attack on Darkseid's back like the one that started his assault. We've seen Superman and Captain Marvel each physically destroy each other with sucker shots, but they always stalemate face to face. Now when it comes to the blast that Darkseid used to incapacitate Doomsday, it would be very easy for him to land a similar attack in a face to face fight. Darkseid even stated that the blast in H/P would've been more effective from point blank range. In a face to face fight, Doomsday would be getting hit with point blank shots.
I concede that H/P paints Doomsday as Darkseid's physical superior regardless of the fact that it was a sneak attack, but I don't think it can be used as evidence that Doomsday's physical advantages would overcome Darkseid's overall power advantage in a face to face battle.
Anyway I agree that SBP wins as he is stronger and faster than either of the two.
Originally posted by Jimmy-ChanWhile Darkseid jobbed to Doomsday, he also looked more powerful offensively. Look at the fight in practical terms. What would happen if they met face to face? There's no way Doomsday would get a clean slicing attack on Darkseid's back like the one that started his assault. We've seen Superman and Captain Marvel each physically destroy each other with sucker shots, but they always stalemate face to face. Now when it comes to the blast that Darkseid used to incapacitate Doomsday, it would be very easy for him to land a similar attack in a face to face fight. Darkseid even stated that the blast in H/P would've been more effective from point blank range. In a face to face fight, Doomsday would be getting hit with point blank shots.
I concede that H/P paints Doomsday as Darkseid's physical superior regardless of the fact that it was a sneak attack, but I don't think it can be used as evidence that Doomsday's physical advantages would overcome Darkseid's overall power advantage in a face to face battle.
Anyway I agree that SBP wins as he is stronger and faster than either of the two.
Good try and nice thinking too.
But you're incorrect in some items here.
First, Darkseid said in H/P that the beam he shot was from point blank range. Second, you mistake comics for real life instead of using the writer's intention. People kill me when they try to reason a comic like its real life with no contradictions in it. Trust me, the writer's are not that smart. It is clear in the mind of the writer's that H/P DD was superior to both Darkseid and Superman (He evolved to such).
Third, H/P DD evolves instantly on the fly. So any hit that SBP gets will then make DD evolve to resist it. That means that after one hit, DD will be immune to anything that SBP can throw at him. Thus its impossible for SBP to win without BFR. This is pure logic. Finally, it hasn't been proven that SBP has faster reflexes than Superman himself. For he has been hit in the same manner as Supes himself. So if H/P DD can send out claws faster than Superman can respond and in which the claws are going through Superman's shoulder like liquid then 'boy oh boy' is SBP in trouble if one of those claws is headed towards his brain.
Also, H/P gets stronger and faster as he evolves too.
H/P wins 10/10 easily.
Originally posted by h1a8
Good try and nice thinking too.
But you're incorrect in some items here.
First, Darkseid said in H/P that the beam he shot was from point blank range.
No, read it again. The one blast that landed was from a distance and he said "no one has ever survived the unrivalled might of my Omega Beams." Then when he was attacked by Doomsday, he stated "no one has ever survived the Omega Beams -- from point blank range." He was ABOUT to blast Doomsday at point blank range, but never got the chance. He was charging up his eyes, but Doomsday caught him with a knee spike before the blast could go off.
His statement specifices that the blast that actually landed was NOT as powerful as a point blank blast would have been.
Second, you mistake comics for real life instead of using the writer's intention. People kill me when they try to reason a comic like its real life with no contradictions in it. Trust me, the writer's are not that smart. It is clear in the mind of the writer's that H/P DD was superior to both Darkseid and Superman (He evolved to such).
Superior to Superman, yes. This is made clear because of how Doomsday waded through Superman's blasts, outslugged him face to face, and Superman's dialogue.
Superior to Darkseid all around, including his energy powers? I don't get that impression. I think Jurgens' intention (as he stated in the foreword of the H/P trade) was to show that Doomsday is insanely powerful by having him be the first character to physically take Darkseid out. Part of his job as a writer is to make that scenario plausible. I think the very reason he had Darkseid turn his back and walk away is because that was the easiest way he could think of that would allow Doomsday to get close to Darkseid without being blasted away and without downgrading the power of Darkseid's blasts.
Third, H/P DD evolves instantly on the fly. So any hit that SBP gets will then make DD evolve to resist it. That means that after one hit, DD will be immune to anything that SBP can throw at him. Thus its impossible for SBP to win without BFR. This is pure logic. Finally, it hasn't been proven that SBP has faster reflexes than Superman himself. For he has been hit in the same manner as Supes himself. So if H/P DD can send out claws faster than Superman can respond and in which the claws are going through Superman's shoulder like liquid then 'boy oh boy' is SBP in trouble if one of those claws is headed towards his brain.
Also, H/P gets stronger and faster as he evolves too.
H/P wins 10/10 easily.
I will admit that Doomsday's evolution seemed insanely fast near the end of the battle against Superman and Waverider. If we just take that part of the story isolated, I could maybe agree with you. However, in Doomsday Wars Jurgens wrote a different story and had the same version of Doomsday needing a good deal of time to evolve to combat Braniac's mind control, as well as getting rocked some by Superman and bleeding slightly from one of his punches.
Are we isolating the Doomsday that showed up in H/P#3? Because if we take into account H/P#1, DD Wars, and OWAW, all of which were technically the same version of Doomsday, then it's a different story.
As for SBP's reflexes, he seemed faster in a straight line than any of the heroes in IC#6, plus he managed to speed-blitz the Flashes. Also, he's much stronger than Superman with more powerful heat vision and freeze breath. I would assume all of his powers are above Superman's to a similar degree.
Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
No, read it again. The one blast that landed was from a distance and he said "no one has ever survived the unrivalled might of my Omega Beams." Then when he was attacked by Doomsday, he stated "no one has ever survived the Omega Beams -- from point blank range." He was ABOUT to blast Doomsday at point blank range, but never got the chance. He was charging up his eyes, but Doomsday caught him with a knee spike before the blast could go off.His statement specifices that the blast that actually landed was NOT as powerful as a point blank blast would have been.
"Point Blank Range" is not well defined. So its definition depends on the opinion of those who use it. It is very clear that DS was implying that DD did indeed survive his omega beams from point blank range (according to his opinion). That is why he said; "Impossible.....No one has survived the omega beams--urrrk!--from point blank range." But it is true that DS was about to fire up another beam at DD and didn't get the chance, but this had nothing to do with his previous statement. Also know that DS can shoot his beams across vast distances through time and space. So the distance he shot DD from was indeed from point blank range in his opinion.
Superior to Darkseid all around, including his energy powers? I don't get that impression. I think Jurgens' intention (as he stated in the foreword of the H/P trade) was to show that Doomsday is insanely powerful by having him be the first character to physically take Darkseid out. Part of his job as a writer is to make that scenario plausible. I think the very reason he had Darkseid turn his back and walk away is because that was the easiest way he could think of that would allow Doomsday to get close to Darkseid without being blasted away and without downgrading the power of Darkseid's blasts.Superman almost physically took DS out several times (probably did at least once though). Trust me, the whole H/P series implied that DD was beyond death (even by DS's statement) and that the only force in the universe of killing him is the 'end of time'. Whether DS fought DD face to face or not, the outcome would have been the same, according to the writer's meaning of it all. Its best (and the only way) to use the writer's opinions on things (which can be grasped from the story). Otherwise, since comics are contradictory sometimes, one will fall into a heap of contradictions if they follow the story as if it really happened in real life.
I will admit that Doomsday's evolution seemed insanely fast near the end of the battle against Superman and Waverider. If we just take that part of the story isolated, I could maybe agree with you. However, in Doomsday Wars Jurgens wrote a different story and had the same version of Doomsday needing a good deal of time to evolve to combat Braniac's mind control, as well as getting rocked some by Superman and bleeding slightly from one of his punches.
That is why we say H/P DD and not Gogs DD, DD rex, etc in these threads even though the latter versions should be similar or greater (and not weaker through losing abilities). They are not because comics are contradictory. That is why we must specify which version of DD. So H/P DD is different than DD wars version, Gogs DD, and any other version. Otherwise, we would never specify H/P DD. We would just say DD period. So from now on take a thread who specifies H/P DD as the one who has the exact powers and abilities as shown only in the H/P series and not in any other series.
As for SBP's reflexes, he seemed faster in a straight line than any of the heroes in IC#6, plus he managed to speed-blitz the Flashes. Also, he's much stronger than Superman with more powerful heat vision and freeze breath. I would assume all of his powers are above Superman's to a similar degree.
WW and many others have managed to hit the Flashes and Zooms.
And all it takes is one hit to start a combo. So anyone can potentially speed blitz a Flash provided that they get the first hit in. Also Supes, WW, and other speedsters with great reflexes has been hit by supposedly slower beings (even SBP himself has been hit). So whether SBP's reflexes (I'm not talking about speed) is greater than Superman's or not, they are not that much greater. Thus is due to the fact that he has been hit by 'slowers' and the fact that others who are slower have done similar things as him (like hit the flashes and zooms).
But I enjoy debateble and discussion with you. I see you are a decent thinker here.
Originally posted by h1a8
Point Blank Range" is not well defined. So its definition depends on the opinion of those who use it. It is very clear that DS was implying that DD did indeed survive his omega beams from point blank range (according to his opinion). That is why he said; "Impossible.....No one has survived the omega beams--urrrk!--from point blank range."
He said "impossible"in disbelief when he saw that Doomsday had recovered from the first blast. Then, three panels later, he confidently stated that "No one has survived the Omega Beams from point blank range" as he prepared to blast him from point blank range.
He was talking about the first blast when he said "impossible."
He was talking about the blast he was charging up, ABOUT to launch when he said "no one has survived the Omega Beams from point blank range."
I really can't believe you'd question this. It's extremely obvious from the context of the two statements.
But it is true that DS was about to fire up another beam at DD and didn't get the chance, but this had nothing to do with his previous statement.
Darkseid made the statement AS he was charging the beams up. And he was speaking confidently. His surprised statement of "impossible" THREE panels earlier had nothing to do with the comment he was making in this panel.
Also know that DS can shoot his beams across vast distances through time and space. So the distance he shot DD from was indeed from point blank range in his opinion.
Again, it's about context.
As Darkseid delivered the first blast he said "no one has ever survived the Omega Beams."
Then he said "impossible" when he realized Doomsday had survived them albeit from a distance.
Then, as he's charging up for another blast he says "no one has ever survived the Omega Beams" then there's a close-up panel of him saying "from point blank range."
It's obvious that he was amending his previous statement since he saw that Doomsday HAD survived the beams, and he was then stating that DD couldn't survive them from point blank range.
Superman almost physically took DS out several times (probably did at least once though).
What are you talking about? They only had two (three if you count Superman Confidential) encounters before at that point:
1. Adv.#495 where Darkseid imprisons Superman and The Infinity Man at the same time (and The Infinity Man shows Superman up in the same comic)
2. Cosmic Odyssey#1 where Darkseid barely unfolds his arms to send a charging Superman flying back the way he came
At that point Superman had never presented Darkseid with a physical challenge (the meeting in Adv.#586 was retconned to have been Desaad in the guise of Darkseid).
Trust me, the whole H/P series implied that DD was beyond death (even by DS's statement) and that the only force in the universe of killing him is the 'end of time'.
I am aware of that. That doesn't mean he can't be temporarily KOed or even killed before his rejuvenation powers kick in. And he certainly wouldn't be immune to the wipeout beams, which simply erase someone from this plain of existence without actually killing them.
Whether DS fought DD face to face or not, the outcome would have been the same, according to the writer's meaning of it all. Its best (and the only way) to use the writer's opinions on things (which can be grasped from the story). Otherwise, since comics are contradictory sometimes, one will fall into a heap of contradictions if they follow the story as if it really happened in real life.
Yes, and to me the fact that one shot from Darkseid laid Doomsday out and he avoided a face-to-face battle between the two implies that he did NOT see Doomsday as superior straight up. Although I would agree that he saw DD as physically superior HTH.
That is why we say H/P DD and not Gogs DD, DD rex, etc in these threads even though the latter versions should be similar or greater (and not weaker through losing abilities). They are not because comics are contradictory. That is why we must specify which version of DD. So H/P DD is different than DD wars version, Gogs DD, and any other version. Otherwise, we would never specify H/P DD. We would just say DD period. So from now on take a thread who specifies H/P DD as the one who has the exact powers and abilities as shown only in the H/P series and not in any other series.
The thing is that Doomsday got a powerup when he returned in H/P after his death, and he was at the same power level in DD Wars and OWAW. The post-OWAW version is not the same Doomsday (he was recreated with additional DNA) and may or may not be on the exact same power level.
Whenever I hear "H/P version" I think of Doomsday at the power level he gained after his double-death with Superman and maintained up until he was vaporized by Imperiex.
WW and many others have managed to hit the Flashes and Zooms.
And all it takes is one hit to start a combo. So anyone can potentially speed blitz a Flash provided that they get the first hit in. Also Supes, WW, and other speedsters with great reflexes has been hit by supposedly slower beings (even SBP himself has been hit). So whether SBP's reflexes (I'm not talking about speed) is greater than Superman's or not, they are not that much greater. Thus is due to the fact that he has been hit by 'slowers' and the fact that others who are slower have done similar things as him (like hit the flashes and zooms).
It's all about context. Even when the Flashes are hit once they are almost never speedblitzed. The thing is that SBP speedblitzed 3 of them at once while saying "I'm pretty fast too." If we're going by writer's intentions, it's obvious from the context that this was meant to be a major feat of SBP's speed.
Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
He said "impossible"in disbelief when he saw that Doomsday had recovered from the first blast. Then, three panels later, he confidently stated that "No one has survived the Omega Beams from point blank range" as he prepared to blast him from point blank range.He was talking about the first blast when he said "impossible."
He was talking about the blast he was charging up, ABOUT to launch when he said "no one has survived the Omega Beams from point blank range."
I really can't believe you'd question this. It's extremely obvious from the context of the two statements.
Darkseid made the statement AS he was charging the beams up. And he was speaking confidently. His surprised statement of "impossible" THREE panels earlier had nothing to do with the comment he was making in this panel.
Again, it's about context.
As Darkseid delivered the first blast he said "no one has ever survived the Omega Beams."
Then he said "impossible" when he realized Doomsday had survived them albeit from a distance.
Then, as he's charging up for another blast he says "no one has ever survived the Omega Beams" then there's a close-up panel of him saying "from point blank range."
It's obvious that he was amending his previous statement since he saw that Doomsday HAD survived the beams, and he was then stating that DD couldn't survive them from point blank range.
What are you talking about? They only had two (three if you count Superman Confidential) encounters before at that point:
1. Adv.#495 where Darkseid imprisons Superman and The Infinity Man at the same time (and The Infinity Man shows Superman up in the same comic)
2. Cosmic Odyssey#1 where Darkseid barely unfolds his arms to send a charging Superman flying back the way he came
At that point Superman had never presented Darkseid with a physical challenge (the meeting in Adv.#586 was retconned to have been Desaad in the guise of Darkseid).
I am aware of that. That doesn't mean he can't be temporarily KOed or even killed before his rejuvenation powers kick in. And he certainly wouldn't be immune to the wipeout beams, which simply erase someone from this plain of existence without actually killing them.
Yes, and to me the fact that one shot from Darkseid laid Doomsday out and he avoided a face-to-face battle between the two implies that he did NOT see Doomsday as superior straight up. Although I would agree that he saw DD as physically superior HTH.
The thing is that Doomsday got a powerup when he returned in H/P after his death, and he was at the same power level in DD Wars and OWAW. The post-OWAW version is not the same Doomsday (he was recreated with additional DNA) and may or may not be on the exact same power level.
Whenever I hear "H/P version" I think of Doomsday at the power level he gained after his double-death with Superman and maintained up until he was vaporized by Imperiex.
It's all about context. Even when the Flashes are hit once they are almost never speedblitzed. The thing is that SBP speedblitzed 3 of them at once while saying "I'm pretty fast too." If we're going by writer's intentions, it's obvious from the context that this was meant to be a major feat of SBP's speed.
I think you are either lying or are on some strong stuff dude.
There is no way in hell someone as smart as you (so you seem) to misinterpret the obvious. It is clear beyond daylight that when DS said "No one has ever survived the omega beams from point blank range." that he was referring to the beam he already shot DD with. It would be totally corney and stupid as hell for DS to be getting his ass beat while saying "No one has ever....range" in order to fire another beam at DD. This makes him look like a total dumbass. This makes no sense whatsoever. You can ask anyone here. Someone please help me out here. Set Jimmy straight . DS was in shock the whole time he was getting his ass beat. That is why he said "The legends are true...you are beyond death" even after his failed attempt to fry DD again. There was no f...ing confidence anywhere, only shock.
Yes SBP is fast. But that says nothing of his reflexes. Remember speed doesn't equal reflexes. SBP has been hit by slowers so thus he can be hit by DD.
The writer's intention was that DD was immune to all energy projection. This is implied in the story of his battle with the Radiant. That is why the full force of the JLA had no effect on him in DOS, the Earth's most powerful laser (hotter than the core of the sun) had no effect, the OE had no effect, etc. He never encountered those forces before and yet they all had no effect. DD was expunged by Imperiex because Imperiex used DD's anti-dna (it was some sort of a virus). There was no energy beams even involved there. Also know that Superman, with all his might, couldn't even put the tiniest scratch on or even remotely slow down those missiles in HP, yet from miles away, DS's beam instantly vaporized the missiles (instant vapor). Now DD has some awesome durability.
How do you know that HP DD can be Koed by physical force? Are you saying that in this battle DD won't evolve on the spot as he did in H/P? You know that is his power right? Otherwise, why in the hell would the writers have DD evolve on the spot in HP when they don't believe he has that power? It is totally illogical to even say that SBP has a chance to win without BFR when DD can evolve after each hit and plus heal instantly too.
Lastly, it is moot whether Superman physically beat DS before or after that encounter. My point had nothing to do with the when.