Galactus vs Celestials

Originally posted by Kutulu
1) At his absolute best during the black Celestial arc he killed and consumed every Celestial in that universe.
2) On panel he beat every Celestial in the universe during black Celestial arc. In 616 he has not directly fought one yet.
...

What actual issues are these events in? I've seen them mentioned several times here but I've never seen them.

In FF #340 we saw:
1) While Galactus lay healing following his defeat by Thing, Thor, and Dr. Strange, he was altered by the Black Celestial. His appetite was made so great that he would eventually consume the universe.

2) According to the Celestial computer, the Black Celestial planned that with the entire universe consumed even the Celestials could not survive the void, but the Black Celestial would survive and found a new universe.

3) The BC's earth base is destroyed, and for some reason BC needed it for extra power. Reed lured the BC into an area of massive time dilation where his internal energy eventually ran out, and he was not able to escape the black hole.

4) When BC's drained form is destroyed in the black hole, Galactus sucked up the energy released.

But Galactus didn't kill any Celestials in this issue, and no other Celestials were even present in that arc as far as I saw. Were any of the quoted feats real or just taken from incorrect accounts?

Originally posted by basilisk
What actual issues are these events in? I've seen them mentioned several times here but I've never seen them.

In FF #340 we saw:
1) While Galactus lay healing following his defeat by Thing, Thor, and Dr. Strange, he was altered by the Black Celestial. His appetite was made so great that he would eventually consume the universe.

2) According to the Celestial computer, the Black Celestial planned that with the entire universe consumed even the Celestials could not survive the void, but the Black Celestial would survive and found a new universe.

3) The BC's earth base is destroyed, and for some reason BC needed it for extra power. Reed lured the BC into an area of massive time dilation where his internal energy eventually ran out, and he was not able to escape the black hole.

4) When BC's drained form is destroyed in the black hole, Galactus sucked up the energy released.

But Galactus didn't kill any Celestials in this issue, and no other Celestials were even present in that arc as far as I saw. Were any of the quoted feats real or just taken from incorrect accounts?

so basically the origins and function of The Celestials is pretty much unknown, they mirror "God/s" from reality, people have theories, people suggest ideas, some assert them as fact but, in the end there is just the unknown.

I like the idea that Galactus would become a Celestial in a future universe to come, but that doesn't square with the idea that The Silver Surfer was created by Galactus to one-day destroy him...

hmm, wonder if Hulk could become a Celestial... he's already got props from The Beyonder... got the infinity, needs the dynamism and cosmic awareness...

Originally posted by basilisk
What actual issues are these events in? I've seen them mentioned several times here but I've never seen them.

In FF #340 we saw:
1) While Galactus lay healing following his defeat by Thing, Thor, and Dr. Strange, he was altered by the Black Celestial. His appetite was made so great that he would eventually consume the universe.

2) According to the Celestial computer, the Black Celestial planned that with the entire universe consumed even the Celestials could not survive the void, but the Black Celestial would survive and found a new universe.

3) The BC's earth base is destroyed, and for some reason BC needed it for extra power. Reed lured the BC into an area of massive time dilation where his internal energy eventually ran out, and he was not able to escape the black hole.

4) When BC's drained form is destroyed in the black hole, Galactus sucked up the energy released.

But Galactus didn't kill any Celestials in this issue, and no other Celestials were even present in that arc as far as I saw. Were any of the quoted feats real or just taken from incorrect accounts?

No he didn't kill any Celestials in the Black Celestial Act, but certain incidents points towards them not being capable of stopping him even if they wanted to. Also the Black Celestial knew that the only one that would have the power even without his tampering to destroy the Celestial Race was Galactus hence he managed to manipulate a very weakend Galactus that was being kept alived by Reed Richards.

Originally posted by janus77
so basically the origins and function of The Celestials is pretty much unknown, they mirror "God/s" from reality, people have theories, people suggest ideas, some assert them as fact but, in the end there is just the unknown.

I like the idea that Galactus would become a Celestial in a future universe to come, but that doesn't square with the idea that The Silver Surfer was created by Galactus to one-day destroy him...

hmm, wonder if Hulk could become a Celestial... he's already got props from The Beyonder... got the infinity, needs the dynamism and cosmic awareness...

Thats just Kubik and Cosmos in the Galactus and Celestial respect thread both scans of why Eternity created the Celestials. To make a race that would one day suceed the abstracts when the universe collapses into itself, much like Galan merged with the previous 616 Eternity.

Originally posted by janus77
so basically the origins and function of The Celestials is pretty much unknown, they mirror "God/s" from reality, people have theories, people suggest ideas, some assert them as fact but, in the end there is just the unknown.

I like the idea that Galactus would become a Celestial in a future universe to come, but that doesn't square with the idea that The Silver Surfer was created by Galactus to one-day destroy him...

hmm, wonder if Hulk could become a Celestial... he's already got props from The Beyonder... got the infinity, needs the dynamism and cosmic awareness...

^That's the only instance where I know that Galactus is suggested to become a celestial in the next universe.

On the other hand, there's much more evidence that indicates Galactus has a higher purpose than just merely becoming a celestial in the next universe. The idea stretches all the way back to Jack Kirby/Stan Lee themselves, in the "Galactus Trilogy." It's been hinted many times that when the current marvel 616 universe will reach its end, when Eternity, Death, and all other abstracts will expire, Galactus alone will remain, and somehow be the catalyst for the big bang of the next universe. Galactus will finally die in the process, having lived the entire sum total existence of the 616 universe.

Even in "The Last Galactus Story," by John Byrne, Galactus cracks open his armor at the end of time, and all the energies he's ever taken from the planets are released and create the next big bang. Of course the story is non-canon but it is right in line with all the various statements/intimations that Galactus will play a central role in creating the next universe.

In fact there was a statement by someone...I want to say John Byrne but can't remember if it was him, that stated Galactus the most important character in Marvel comics because he is the only being to have pivotal roles in the past universe, the current universe, and the next universe.

cool but aren't there loads of universes already 'at present', within the Marvel Omniverse?

seems a minor role to be playing, doing the job of the Phoenix Force, big-banging a universe into existence.

the Celestials are pretty enigmatic characters, I would like to see a definite hierarchy though, to have Galactus, the abstracts etc etc all tied together properly.

Originally posted by Tenebrous
^That's the only instance where I know that Galactus is suggested to become a celestial in the next universe.

On the other hand, there's much more evidence that indicates Galactus has a higher purpose than just merely becoming a celestial in the next universe. The idea stretches all the way back to Jack Kirby/Stan Lee themselves, in the "Galactus Trilogy." It's been hinted many times that when the current marvel 616 universe will reach its end, when Eternity, Death, and all other abstracts will expire, Galactus alone will remain, and somehow be the catalyst for the big bang of the next universe. Galactus will finally die in the process, having lived the entire sum total existence of the 616 universe.

Even in "The Last Galactus Story," by John Byrne, Galactus cracks open his armor at the end of time, and all the energies he's ever taken from the planets are released and create the next big bang. Of course the story is non-canon but it is right in line with all the various statements/intimations that Galactus will play a central role in creating the next universe.

In fact there was a statement by someone...I want to say John Byrne but can't remember if it was him, that stated Galactus the most important character in Marvel comics because he is the only being to have pivotal roles in the past universe, the current universe, and the next universe.

Its also known, when the Celestials were created they would replace Galactus and the Watchers on the cosmic scale 🙂

Celestial Depending on which one will win-galactus has a chance against one depending on who it is
Two celestials will definetly beat galactus

Of course its only my opinion

It's also known that it's been a while since Lee/Kirby did anything with Galactus and odds are they won't be working on "potential ideas" they had for Galactus' outcome any time soon.

Originally posted by llagrok
It's also known that it's been a while since Lee/Kirby did anything with Galactus and odds are they won't be working on "potential ideas" they had for Galactus' outcome any time soon.

Irrelevant. As my post stated above the idea originated from the two of them, and with each subsequent writer reinforcing these ideas.

Originally posted by janus77
cool but aren't there loads of universes already 'at present', within the Marvel Omniverse?

seems a minor role to be playing, doing the job of the Phoenix Force, big-banging a universe into existence.

the Celestials are pretty enigmatic characters, I would like to see a definite hierarchy though, to have Galactus, the abstracts etc etc all tied together properly.

The marvel-616 universe is the focal point of the omniverse. Check mister master's cosmic thread for the exact citations of this. Galactus' role is not as miniscule as you make it out....Abraxas killed all the other Galacti in the alternate/parallel universes, but it was only 616-Galactus that had such importance.

The Phoenix Force doesn't reboot the universe. it serves as "the wellspring of life." i'm not going to get into the whole phoenix force/birthing of the universe debate...mr. master, galactic storm and others have already discussed that to exhaustion in many threads.

Originally posted by janus77
cool but aren't there loads of universes already 'at present', within the Marvel Omniverse?

There's the Prime Multiverse that Eternity embodies (an Infinite # of Universes)

There are other Multiverses, that are not embodied by a Sentient entity (also Infinite)

There are atleast Two Megaverses in Marvel that we know that are embodied by Entities,
(that being the Brothers who were also the architects and are the guardians of their Realities)
(Each Megaverse is a collection of Mutliverses (unknow how many)

There are and/or will be presumably more Megaverses.

The Omniverse is the sum of all this.

Originally posted by janus77
seems a minor role to be playing, doing the job of the Phoenix Force,
big-banging a universe into existence.

Galactus is far more important than the PF.
Without Galactus, there is no Reality in Marvel. It's simple as that.

Galactus balances the existence of Eternity/Infinity & Oblivion/Death
(if these Abstracts were to be erased ... all of Marvel will follow)
Because the 616 Universe is the core of these Abstracts,
and the 616 Universe is the foundation of the Omniverse.
So eveything that takes place in the 616 Universe that can affect that Reality as a whole,
has Omniversal significance according to Marvel. (Official & Canon)

Originally posted by janus77
the Celestials are pretty enigmatic characters, I would like to see a definite hierarchy though, to have Galactus, the abstracts etc etc all tied together properly.

I'll link you up in a bit.

ah, so if Galactus can 'eat' the 616 universe, he could in effect snuff out the multiverse and the Omniverse itself, because of the crucial - central - place of 616 in the overall scheme of things?

so, even though Galactus isn't all that powerful in himself, his role makes him the only truly essential being amongst the abstracts that we usually see superheroes interact with?

I think I was right in suggesting that comics and religion share much in common, this is like a form of eschatology and an 'origin of the gods', quite fascinating stuff.

still though, I remember reading hints and inferences that Silver Surfer is meant to kill/destroy Galactus at some point in the future. I'm not quite sure if it is 616 or just a peripheral universe, but nonetheless that is his 'destiny', and Galactus is aware of it - or indeed, Galactus assigned him the task in the first place.

Eternity embodies the multiverse within which 616 resides, there are others that do not have a form of sentient embodiment, but do have sentient life?

Originally posted by janus77
ah, so if Galactus can 'eat' the 616 universe, he could in effect snuff out the multiverse and the Omniverse itself, because of the crucial - central - place of 616 in the overall scheme of things?

Hmmm well that may be possible in some sense. The collapse of the 616-universe would eventually ripple outward to the rest. Possible, perhaps. Probable? No...Galactus has intervened on behalf of the 616-universe in almost every wide-scale cosmic story. By the nature of his character, we'd never see this universe-destroying Galactus, acting on his own whims.

so, even though Galactus isn't all that powerful in himself, his role makes him the only truly essential being amongst the abstracts that we usually see superheroes interact with?

Aside from the Living Tribunal himself, I would say so. Eternity and Death will expire at the end of the universe...they play absolutely no hand in the birth of the successor universe to marvel-616 as their roles are relegated exclusively to the current marvel reality. That's why the quote I mentioned above...and I will try to find out who exactly said it....mentions Galactus as the most important because he has ties to three universes, past, present, and future. None of the abstracts have this role. A case can be made for the phoenix force but again i'll not get into that debate.

I think I was right in suggesting that comics and religion share much in common, this is like a form of eschatology and an 'origin of the gods', quite fascinating stuff.

Indeed, that's true esp for the cosmic abstracts...there's a ton of mythology/mythos that you can read into. You have a cosmic "trinity," (Eternity/Galactus/Death) a la the New Testament of the Bible...you have scribes/scholars/historians (the watchers) chronicaling the exploits of these cosmic "gods." You have numerous wars amongst these divine figures, you have enigmatic and unexplainable characters (celestials), so on and so on.

Originally posted by janus77
ah, so if Galactus can 'eat' the 616 universe, he could in effect snuff out the multiverse and the Omniverse itself, because of the crucial - central - place of 616 in the overall scheme of things?

Correct, but it must be nullified.

The Marvel Universe = the 616 Reality/Omniverse according to Marvel.com

If you make the 616 Universe null & void,
you basically make eveything null & void in the Omniverse,
because everything blossomed from the 616 Reality.

I'm not sure if absorption would result in the same action,
although it would probably lead to a collpase in the "domino effect" sense.

This is why it's so important to have feats based in the 616 Reality,
it makes the feat more significant than a universal scale influence.

Originally posted by janus77
so, even though Galactus isn't all that powerful in himself, his role makes him the only truly essential being amongst the abstracts that we usually see superheroes interact with?

They're all important,
but certainly there are some that are truly crucial to the existence of the Omniverse.

Eternity/Infinity
Galactus
Oblivion/Death
Lord Chaos/Master Order
In-betweener
Epoch

These are the most essential Entities necessary for a Universe to function.
(none can exist without the other)

Originally posted by janus77
I think I was right in suggesting that comics and religion share much in common, this is like a form of eschatology and an 'origin of the gods', quite fascinating stuff.

I agree.

Originally posted by janus77
still though, I remember reading hints and inferences that Silver Surfer is meant to kill/destroy Galactus at some point in the future. I'm not quite sure if it is 616 or just a peripheral universe, but nonetheless that is his 'destiny', and Galactus is aware of it - or indeed, Galactus assigned him the task in the first place.

I heard that once,
it's never been made conclusive by an official bio or on panel account.

Galactus' future has been fortold,
and it does not involve him dying at the hands of the SS.

Originally posted by janus77
Eternity embodies the multiverse within which 616 resides, there are others that do not have a form of sentient embodiment, but do have sentient life?

Yes.

(excerpt from the official Marvel Handbook)

The Concepts are still there, but without Consciousness.

Galactus's science appears to be more advanced than anyone's in the universe. I don't know this for a fact but it seems so.
I think he could take them all.

There's over 10 billion Celestials. Galactus isn't beating the entire race

Same with the Watchers

Just too many

Galactus vs Arishem
Galactus vs Exitar
Galactus vs Tiamut
Galactus vs Scathan

All good fights

Fair enough to say that Galactus could have defeated them in the beggining of the Universe while they were being made. He is pretty much the Superior power in the Universe besides the major entites.
All Galactus really has to do is look at someone and notice them and they can be destroyed.

Galactus is quite powerful. We all agree. Marvel doesn't write him to his full capacity. Some call him the ultimate jobber

Other beings like the Celestials can give Big G a battle

Galactus vs 1 Celestial is a battle, I wish Marvel would make. Or pair em up against two other all powerful beings ala Tenebrous/Aegis

When u have a race which is over 10 billion, chances aren't good for Galactus