Cell Vs Superman

Originally posted by Creshosk
Oh no, I have to totally change my way of thinking because someone posted a picture of themself on the internet...

DBZ totally wins because you told me to shut up.

Oh wait, that was just gas.

I take it you are completely out of arguments and have absolutely zero evidence to back up any of your claims since were going so far off topic, yes?

You have yet to state anything new, you simply recycle the same crap.

I have posted a youtube link that states that Raditz moved faster than light. You state that Piccolo was lying. 😂

I stated that the author of Dragonball stated they were moving faster than light. You stated what the author says doesn't mean anything. 😆

Basically no matter what scan I show you, you state either the scan, the wording, or what the author states is wrong.

Are you really that retarded?

Let me rephrase that, since anybody who can speak English has already heard you were wrong from the youtube link.

Did you get that way from eating paint chips, or was it from getting dropped on your head as a child?

Originally posted by Kutulu
You have yet to state anything new, you simply recycle the same crap.

I have posted a youtube link that states that Raditz moved faster than light.

It'd be different if we were saying something like "Goku can't shoot ki" and then you show him shooting ki."

Wolverine says he's the best at what he does. So I guess that means he's the best at what he does, doesn't it?

No. Its been shown he's not.

Cell stated that he would be unbeatable in his perfect form.. he was beaten.
Vegeta said he was the best in the universe... this was before he was killed by freeza.
Picollo says he can shoot ki at the speed of light... This hasn't been proven either way. You have not posted the interveiw, and have not given any evidence that it was faster than the speed of light. Anecdotal evidence is not permissible as emperical evidence.

Originally posted by Kutulu
You state that Piccolo was lying. 😂

In fact its show that in the original version he did not say that. So obviously since the only change between a sub and a dub is the dialouge, in the original he didn't, shoot it at the speed of light. he wouldn't be able to if they simply changed what he said.

So its up to you to prove he was telling the truth. He's not a third person omiscent narrator, or even an expert in the field.

Originally posted by Kutulu
I stated that the author of Dragonball stated they were moving faster than light. You stated what the author says doesn't mean anything. 😆

Originally posted by Kutulu
Basically no matter what scan I show you, you state either the scan, the wording, or what the author states is wrong.

You don't like logic? Too bad, that's what people use in debate. You have not proven that the attack was lightspeed. The dialouge was not written by the author. But you want to discard that fact.
You say that the author says that they are faster than the speed of light... you have not proven that he said that.
You're mixing two different continuitys. The anime is canon only to the anime, the manga is canon only to the manga. you cannot use manga evidence to the anime canon, and you cannot use anime canon to the manga.

It's even stated in the forum rules not to use non-canon evidence. The dialouge of the dub was not written by Akira Toriyama. You cannot use "what akira toriyama said" as evidence to the English dub. as he was not the author.
You cannot use the anime as evidence if you want to insist on using "what akira toriyama said."

Originally posted by Kutulu
Are you really that retarded?

Originally posted by Kutulu
Let me rephrase that, since anybody who can speak English has already heard you were wrong from the youtube link.

Originally posted by Kutulu
Did you get that way from eating paint chips, or was it from getting dropped on your head as a child?

So as I said.. all you have left to argue with are insults. You have continued to fail the challenges of proving your claims.

What do you hope to accomplish with the insults?

Cell stated that he would be unbeatable in his perfect form.. he was beaten.

That's apples to oranges. There is a vast difference between a boast and an observation of an event by a character. When a character observes something in comics and makes a statement in regards to it, they are in effect acting as the narrator for that scene. When a villain states they are the best, it is for flair and drama only. Do you see the difference there, or is that too much for you to handle?

In fact its show that in the original version he did not say that. So obviously since the only change between a sub and a dub is the dialouge, in the original he didn't, shoot it at the speed of light. he wouldn't be able to if they simply changed what he said.

So its up to you to prove he was telling the truth. He's not a third person omiscent narrator, or even an expert in the field.

I have proven that he went faster than light, because a character has narrated it, in English. You said it was borderline racist to verify that this was an English speaking board. Guess what - racist applies to race, not language.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6crf2_prhEQ

There is the clip, from the anime, which is canon to people that speak English, because that is what officially came out by the company that makes the cartoon, like it or not. Now since I have shown evidence, the onus is on you to prove me wrong. I have backed up my end of the debate, you have not backed up your end.

No, I said that YOU saying that the author saying that is meaningless. Are you the author? No. So either post evidence of the interveiw or accept that we won't take your word as truth with unsupported claims.

This is literally what he said in the interview:
"Toriyama-san: Yes I do. Doragonboru has come a long way. They went from running at super speed to moving at the speed of light! (Laughs)"

From: Akira Toriyama Interview by Nirazaki Tihashiberi
Super Otaku Magazine Issue #297

You don't like logic? Too bad, that's what people use in debate. You have not proven that the attack was lightspeed. The dialouge was not written by the author. But you want to discard that fact.
You say that the author says that they are faster than the speed of light... you have not proven that he said that.
You're mixing two different continuitys. The anime is canon only to the anime, the manga is canon only to the manga. you cannot use manga evidence to the anime canon, and you cannot use anime canon to the manga.

It's even stated in the forum rules not to use non-canon evidence. The dialouge of the dub was not written by Akira Toriyama. You cannot use "what akira toriyama said" as evidence to the English dub. as he was not the author.
You cannot use the anime as evidence if you want to insist on using "what akira toriyama said."

Also for those who try and debate based upon the merits of a character rather than argue for 30+ pages on semantics, it is generally established based upon feats and not fanboyism on various messages boards that Superman would be in the vicinity of a Super Saiyajin 2 in terms of speed, far stronger than any of the Saiyajins in terms of strength (strongest Saiyajin in SSJ4 was stated to be able to lift the equivilant of a large city), and on-par with a SSJ2 in terms of durability.

I will repost some basic math from the cbr forums 1089 page thread (yes the thread is literally over 1000 pages):

Originally posted by Ice'Lord
If Earth's fastest spaceship goes approximately at about 60 000km/h, and it would take 4339 years to get to Namek than Namek is
60 000*24*365*4339=2280578400000 km away from earth. Now a Saiyan space pod can get from Earth to Namek in 6 days which is 144 hours. That means that Saiyan space pod moves at 2280578400000/144 = 15837350000 km/h = 4399263 km/s. That means that those pods were moving at 4399263/300000 = 14 times the speed of light. Now Vegeta could sense that the Ginyu Force is coming while they were in space pods approaching the planet, but he couldn't sense where Frieza is, although Frieza was much closer than those pods plus Vegeta was more powerful then (as shown in scans Buutenks provided). So I think it's safe to say that top tiers were FTL in Frieza saga.

---- and ----

Originally posted by buutenks
Okay: http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4554/db231026mq.gif

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8245/db231037yn.gif

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/899/db231045nd.gif

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3830/db231056to.gif

Vegeta could sense the kis in those ships that were moving at light speed or above.

Here Vegeta couldn't sense where Freeza was moving: http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/1...db260747bh.jpg

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8...db260755kr.jpg

Keep in mind this is pre-Cell games saga, so the characters by that point were that much more powerful than they were during planet Namek saga. Keep in mind also that when Cell came back after being blown up and regenerated, he had the SSJ2 lightning around him in addition to the yellow aura, signifying that he was SSJ2 level in power. It also was backed up given that he was matching Gohan pretty good, and Gohan just barely pulled through with a victory.

Originally posted by Kutulu
That's apples to oranges.

Cell said that he would be unbeatable.
Piccolo said that his attack moved at the speed of light.

Originally posted by Kutulu
There is a vast difference between a boast and an observation of an event by a character.

Piccolo said his attack moves at the speed of light.
Cell said that he would be unbeateable.

Originally posted by Kutulu
When a character observes something in comics and makes a statement in regards to it, they are in effect acting as the narrator for that scene.

Originally posted by Kutulu
When a villain states they are the best, it is for flair and drama only. Do you see the difference there,

Originally posted by Kutulu
or is that too much for you to handle?

Originally posted by Kutulu
I have proven that he went faster than light,

Originally posted by Kutulu
because a character has narrated it, in English. You said it was borderline racist to verify that this was an English speaking board. Guess what - racist applies to [b]race, not language.[/b]

Originally posted by Kutulu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6crf2_prhEQ

There is the clip, from the anime, which is canon to people that speak English, because that is what officially came out by the company that makes the cartoon, like it or not.

Originally posted by Kutulu
Now since I have shown evidence, the onus is on [b]you to prove me wrong.[/b]

It is an invalid cirrcular reasoning argument on your behalf to say that his is correct in that the attack moves faster than light because he said it moves faster than light.

Originally posted by Kutulu
I have backed up my end of the debate,

Originally posted by Kutulu
you have not backed up your end.

Originally posted by Kutulu
This is literally what he said in the interview:
"Toriyama-san: Yes I do. Doragonboru has come a long way. They went from running at super speed to moving at the speed of light! (Laughs)"

From: Akira Toriyama Interview by Nirazaki Tihashiberi
[b]Super Otaku Magazine Issue #297 [/b]

Can you provide me with a scan of the cover of "Super otaku magazine"?

When I tried to locate it all I got was more forums talking about DBZ vs Superman.

I tried to locate "Super Otaku Magazine Issue #297" and found it didn't exist.

There was no such interveiw in a publication that doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Kutulu
I have shown that not only did the author of the series state that they were moving faster than light,

Please provide the evidence of either the interveiw or the publication existing.

Originally posted by Kutulu
but the anime also

Originally posted by Kutulu
stated that they moved faster than light.

Originally posted by Kutulu
I showed the manga screenshots which were fansubs in order to show a close up of what happened during the special beam cannon attack. The manga shots I posted in no way contradict the anime,

It shows that if this is the only way for him to win is by breaking the rules, then he cannot win.

Originally posted by Kutulu
it was only to show the "bullet-time" (ie Matrix) effect of the special beam cannon as it headed towards Raditz. Since the company produced it like that officially, it is canon, end of story.

That's like using evidence from ultimates or the moveis for comic book debates. please stop breaking the rules.

Originally posted by Kutulu
What Akira said originally was in Japanese. This is not a Japanese speaking forum, it is based on the English language. Therefore at some point someone had to translate. When a company was hired to do the translation and submit the anime, it is the most correct version of the anime.

your argument the company that released the anime having had the most accurate translation is invalid. Ignoring how businesses function.

Its not the company with the most accurate translation who got the job, its the company that was willing to pay the most for rights to licence and translate the show. The people who were in charge in the company translated it to their tastes, not for accuracy.

Originally posted by Kutulu
Your canon or non-canon argument doesn't hold water here, as this is not a filler episode and it's not one of the movies.

Is this the only way the DBZ characters can win? By breaking the forum rules?

Originally posted by Kutulu
Try again - you lose.

Oh wait... you lose.... I have told you you lose, that means that You are incorrect by the divine right of me having told you you lose, correct?

Honestly Cresh, most feats are explained from characters points of view, but we mostly for the most part regard them as legitimate.

Originally posted by Kutulu
I will repost some basic math from the cbr forums 1089 page thread (yes the thread is literally over 1000 pages):

---- and ----

Keep in mind this is pre-Cell games saga, so the characters by that point were that much more powerful than they were during planet Namek saga. Keep in mind also that when Cell came back after being blown up and regenerated, he had the SSJ2 lightning around him in addition to the yellow aura, signifying that he was SSJ2 level in power. It also was backed up given that he was matching Gohan pretty good, and Gohan just barely pulled through with a victory.

If distance is no indication then movement is relatively meaningless.

Originally posted by Kutulu
Also for those who try and debate based upon the merits of a character rather than argue for 30+ pages on semantics, it is generally established [b]based upon feats and not fanboyism on various messages boards that Superman would be in the vicinity of a Super Saiyajin 2 in terms of speed, far stronger than any of the Saiyajins in terms of strength (strongest Saiyajin in SSJ4 was stated to be able to lift the equivilant of a large city), and on-par with a SSJ2 in terms of durability. [/B]

Then the world is flat and disease is caused by bad smells, since it was a popularly held belief in the medieval times.

Originally posted by Priest
Honestly Cresh, most feats are explained from characters points of view, but we mostly for the most part regard them as legitimate.

Isn't that a paradox?

This statement is false.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Sham distinciton. A person saying what they are capable of is the same thing as saying what they are capable of.

Cell said that he would be unbeatable.
Piccolo said that his attack moved at the speed of light.

There is no difference between one boast of ability and another boast of ability.

Piccolo said his attack moves at the speed of light.
Cell said that he would be unbeateable.

only if they are reliable on the subject. There has been numerous times a character makes an observation about a scene and has been wrong. The characters are not omniscient.

I see a sham distinction argument on your part. There is no difference between a hero and a vilian boasting their abilities. Heros are not automatically right because of the fact that they are heroes.

What do you hope to accomplish with insults? It does not add any credibility to your claims. In fact it only works to degrade your own credibility because you can't debate without them. But they don't add any support.

Incorrect. You have provided no evidence twoard the claim. You have offered nothing more than hyperbole and an interveiw which you refuse to provide.

That's why I said borderline racist. its still prejudiced biggoted thinking. You are being decriminitory toward Japanese speakers with your atatements that they do not belong here.

Again, a character simply stating something is not valid evidence. If a character is wrong or mistaken about something then there incorrect observations will be stated, and be incorrect. Do you have any evidence that the claim was valid?

Incorrect, you have not proven your claim that he was telling the truth by providing what he was saying.

It is an invalid cirrcular reasoning argument on your behalf to say that his is correct in that the attack moves faster than light because he said it moves faster than light.

Incorrect. Posting a link to what is in question does not remove the question. you have shown no support for your claims to date.

Because the burden of proof is on your sdhoulders to prove he was telling the truth. You can't prove a negative. You have not proven that the attack or the characters are faster than light.

Question for you, Why is it that I cannot verify your claims of the existence of such a publication existing?

Can you provide me with a scan of the cover of "Super otaku magazine"?

When I tried to locate it all I got was more forums talking about DBZ vs Superman.

I tried to locate "Super Otaku Magazine Issue #297" and found it didn't exist.

There was no such interveiw in a publication that doesn't exist.

No, you provided a commonly circulated internet rumor. You have not provided a proper interveiw.

Please provide the evidence of either the interveiw or the publication existing.

You are again crossing continuites.

A character stated that he thought the person was moving faster than light. You have not proven that his beliefs are true.

Other than a difference of dialouge. Again, they are not in continuity to one another. Is this how you intend to win? by breaking the forum rules?

It shows that if this is the only way for him to win is by breaking the rules, then he cannot win.

The Manga is not canon to the Anime, the anime is not canon to the manga.

That's like using evidence from ultimates or the moveis for comic book debates. please stop breaking the rules.

Do you know about sailor moon? Do you know how in the original japanese anime the characters Haruka and Michiru were a lesbian couple. In the English Dub they were renamed to Amara and Michelle and the dialouge was changed to state that they were cousins.

your argument the company that released the anime having had the most accurate translation is invalid. Ignoring how businesses function.

Its not the company with the most accurate translation who got the job, its the company that was willing to pay the most for rights to licence and translate the show. The people who were in charge in the company translated it to their tastes, not for accuracy.
The anime is canon only to the anime. you cannot use evidence interchangably, you are once more breaking the rules of the forum.

Is this the only way the DBZ characters can win? By breaking the forum rules?

Because simply stating that someone loses is the most vlalid argument around I must change my veiws...

Oh wait... you lose.... I have told you you lose, that means that You are incorrect by the divine right of me having told you you lose, correct?

The mods have already stated that narrative counts in another thread. If it didn't count then half of comic feats would be meaningless. Just admit you are wrong.

Originally posted by Kutulu
The mods have already stated that narrative counts in another thread.

Originally posted by Kutulu
If it didn't count then half of comic feats would be meaningless. Just admit you are wrong.

Do you even know what narration is?

Heh,, nice I don't usually get appeal to authority arguments thrown at me. They're not valid either but. *shrugs*

Originally posted by Creshosk
So all the evidently false statements that characters make are evidently true? Simply by divine right of all charcters always state the truth?

Isn't that a paradox?

This statement is false.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Do you even know what narrative is?

I will only admit I'm wrong when you have proven your claims.

Do you even know what narration is?

Heh,, nice I don't usually get appeal to authority arguments thrown at me. They're not valid either but. *shrugs*

When a character states something has happened, they are doing so for the sake of the reader. When a character makes a boast to another character, there is a clear difference.

You are mixing apples and oranges here. Based upon your set of argument style I could throw out literally half of the feats in the various respect threads. I am not appealing to authority, I am saying that your style of argument makes it impossible for people to come to an agreement, because I can say the same thing with any number of scans where a character says something.

You are also mixing racism and language and of course mis-interpreting what I said in regards to the japanese language in a direction that I never would have thought someone could interpret it. I will restate it again in as basic English in order so that you understand: Race is not the same thing as language.

Originally posted by Priest
i get wat ur saying, but lets take the Hulk for example;
Dr. Strange said the hulk has never been angrier, and stronger...
We as readers for the most part can probably agree with this.. But where do we draw the line? can we really take Strange's word, and accept the Hulk has never been stronger? or we wait for a narration by the author himself to confirm this?

Okay, trying to figure out how to phrase this...

There are characters whom we can trust as knowing what they're talking about.

Doctor strange has mystical abilities that would give him this knowledge.

What knowledge does Piccolo have that its faster than light?

Jubilee in her first appearence stated that her powers were "Articulate quasi-animate transitory plasmoids."

As neat as that sounds, her powers are actually the detonation of matter on a sub-atomic level. Better explained in the ultimates universe with Ultimate dazzler's power she detonates air molecules and the splitting of this matter gives off energy in the form of photons.

Her "pafs" have never spoken, and appear as globs. So they are not articulate.
They have full motion and move around quite a bit. They are not "Quasi-animate"
They are transitory as they do not last forever.
They could be considers plasmoids however "Transitory plasmoids" much like the rest of her description of her powers is little more than pretty words.

"speaking sorta moving short lasting long lasting plasma" makes no sense.

At the time Jubilee was not an expert on even her own powers. She was an entertainer though, and the words sounded cool...

Originally posted by Kutulu
When a character states something has happened, they are doing so for the sake of the reader.

If all the characters were omniscient then it'd make for a very poor read.

Originally posted by Kutulu
When a character makes a boast to another character, there is a clear difference.

Sham distinction says I!

Originally posted by Kutulu
You are mixing apples and oranges here. Based upon your set of argument style I could throw out literally half of the feats in the various respect threads.

Originally posted by Kutulu
I am not appealing to authority, I am saying that your style of argument makes it impossible for people to come to an agreement,

I ask for proof and have not received any. I'm just as skeptical now as I was when you made the claims.

Originally posted by Kutulu
because I can say the same thing with any number of scans where a character says something.

Originally posted by Kutulu
You are also mixing racism and language and of course mis-interpreting what I said in regards to the japanese language in a direction that I never would have thought someone could interpret it.

You stated that if you wished to speak to japanese people you should leave. Since most japanese people speak japanese, then obviously the Japanese would not be welcome here. Now since you're saying "English only" then that could discriminate against Korean, chinese etc.. until you just say "No asians".

Now obviously that not what youre saying but its the same reasoning that's used by people who DO think that way.

It's not racism, but its pretty damned close.

Originally posted by Kutulu
I will restate it again in as basic English in order so that you understand: Race is not the same thing as language.

Noe provide some damned evidence for your claims.

Are we still arguing about whether Cell was bluffing or not when he said he could blow up the solar system?

Because I can post tons of scans of DBZ characters bluffing, boasting, and outright lying if you want.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
Are we still arguing about whether Cell was bluffing or not when he said he could blow up the solar system?

Because I can post tons of scans of DBZ characters bluffing, boasting, and outright lying if you want.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Okay, trying to figure out how to phrase this...

There are characters whom we can trust as knowing what they're talking about.

Doctor strange has mystical abilities that would give him this knowledge.

What knowledge does Piccolo have that its faster than light

Jubilee in her first appearence stated that her powers were "Articulate quasi-animate transitory plasmoids."

As neat as that sounds, her powers are actually the detonation of matter on a sub-atomic level. Better explained in the ultimates universe with Ultimate dazzler's power she detonates air molecules and the splitting of this matter gives off energy in the form of photons.

Her "pafs" have never spoken, and appear as globs. So they are not articulate.
They have full motion and move around quite a bit. They are not "Quasi-animate"
They are transitory as they do not last forever.
They could be considers plasmoids however "Transitory plasmoids" much like the rest of her description of her powers is little more than pretty words.

"speaking sorta moving short lasting long lasting plasma" makes no sense.

At the time Jubilee was not an expert on even her own powers. She was an entertainer though, and the words sounded cool...

..............
i never new that Jubilee can manipulate matter at a sub atomic level..pretty cool.

Originally posted by Priest
why would the author have piccolo say such a statement?

Originally posted by Priest
Is is purposely meant to too fool the readers or too have us thinking?😬

Originally posted by Priest
..............
i never new that Jubilee can manipulate matter at a sub atomic level..pretty cool.

Originally posted by Creshosk
In the dub? I have no idea. because it was not stated in the original Japanese version that the attack was lightspeed.

Readers? Its not stated in the manga that the attack was liminal or superliminal.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Not really manipulate, just detonation. And she can't anymore. She was depowered after House of M. Who knows she might have eventually learned how to manipulate matter, but she was scarred of her own powers getting out of control. So it was always just detonation.