That random producer can say whatever he wants; if Nick Gillard doesn't rank on the canon, he sure as hell doesn't when canon sources contradict him. Unless Lucas said it, he's contradicted amply, thus making his singular opinion absolutely worthless.
And to use the full story: Lucas says the original idea for the scene *insert vague outline, including Palpatine trying to kill Mace with the Force...then Lucas details what he changed and added. Hardly convincing and definite
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Exactly.
Thanks Steve Perry.
Repeatedly calling me that isn't annoying me, lol. I'd be happy to be compared with one of the greatest and most talented rock singers of all time. You ought to check out the live-version of "Mother, Father" on youtube. He kicks the shit out of every other contemporary singer.
Anyways, yeah, the script and novelization seem to support that Sidious was failing at that point. He was on his ass with Mace -- a supremely powerful Jedi Master -- towering over him trained in a lightsaber form specifically designed to negate the dark side.
However, the only one weakened after the lightning was Mace. Which is odd, since he didn't get his face melted...
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Steve Perry rocks except he's not exactly a singer songwriter, which puts him firmly under Axl Rose, Richard Marx, and Prince.
...You did not just put Steve Perry (called "The Voice" by his peers, Bon Jovi and Freddie Mercury) under Axl ****ing Rose. Perry is the better singer by far.
Btw. Perry is actually a singer-songwriter. Richard Marx and Prince rock though.
he said that was when he originally wrote it.
And regardless of Palaptine's position-and really, he's well known for putting himself into danger anyways.
And how many tiems do I need to say it: the novelization is written from Mace's POV at that point and from his POV, Palpatine suddenly runs out of power just before Mace is about to. Yet, Palpatine roars back to life, gets up and displays absolutely no ill effects-in movie or novelization.
Palpatine's initial motive in the lightning? Mind telling me exactly what his plan was if he killed Mace? When so much hints to Palpatine forcing Anakin's hand through putting himself in danger to that particular spot?
Nevermind the little details with Palpatine's face...in 'Sithisis', we actually see him use alchemy to alter it
he said that was when he originally wrote it.
No, he says that the scene always -- original and otherwise -- like that.
And regardless of Palaptine's position-and really, he's well known for putting himself into danger anyways.
What is it exactly that you're trying to dispute here? I thought you said that Palpatine was faking or making a half-assed attempt when he was trying to electrocute Mace. He didn't fake the output of energy or the intensity of it.
No one is disputing that Palpatine isn't a coward (when you think about it, he has balls) nor that he doesn't take major risks when his plans need it.
And how many tiems do I need to say it: the novelization is written from Mace's POV at that point and from his POV, Palpatine suddenly runs out of power just before Mace is about to. Yet, Palpatine roars back to life, gets up and displays absolutely no ill effects-in movie or novelization.
Once again, what is your point LS? No one is disputing that -- when Palpatine called off the attack -- he was weak. That is when it was clear (and reinforced by Lucas) that he was faking. He was feigning weakness. He could have kept blasting away, and in that situation, the only one losing energy was Mace. But he was throwing effort into his attempt to overpower Mace in the Force.
Palpatine's initial motive in the lightning? Mind telling me exactly what his plan was if he killed Mace? When so much hints to Palpatine forcing Anakin's hand through putting himself in danger to that particular spot?
Nevermind the little details with Palpatine's face...in 'Sithisis', we actually see him use alchemy to alter it
For the final time, you need to be more specific in exactly what it is you're arguing here. If anything, logic points to Palpatine willingly putting himself in a situation where he could die to force Anakin's hand. For that to occur, the threat on his life has to be very real. I doubt that Palpatine could have just effortlessly destroyed Mace from that position with the Force. I very doubt it. The most he could have done is held him at bay or finally defeated him after an agonizing struggle.
Originally posted by Gideon
...You did not just put Steve Perry (called "The Voice" by his peers, Bon Jovi and Freddie Mercury) under Axl ****ing Rose. Perry is the better singer by [B]far.Btw. Perry is actually a singer-songwriter. Richard Marx and Prince rock though. [/B]
In terms of voice, he's better than Axl yea. But I wouldn't ever compare his voice to Freddie Mercury, nor Richard Marx. However, a lot of his songs that I play on piano, were not written by him, but by Jonathan Cain, whereas Axl Rose, Prince, and Richard Marx write ALL of their lyrics AND songs. Guns N Roses 4 lyfe.
DS:
Anakin wins this. For reason we already know, Obiwan won the fight on Mustafar by having the high ground. Judging from the skill of both combatants, it is unlikely either one will get in a single lightsaber hit anytime soon. However, with Anakin's force reserves, he should be able to tire Obiwan out and land a blow eventually.
I agree that Anakin's physical power would give him an edge, but you also neglected one important fact here: nowhere did I indicate that this is Anakin enraged and full of the darkside as he was on Mustafar. I deliberately omitted it and many people are deliberately referencing it and making the assumption that Anakin is going to be balls-to-the-wall pissed and batting Obi-Wan around like a handball. Darth Vader being enraged with the darkside and hating Obi-Wan to the uttermost is a plot device and is null and void for the purpose of the match. Anakin was as of RotS is not yet Darth Vader, so this precludes any content from the last half of the movie.
Interesting match. Malak was never considered a saber prodigy while Kun was.
Granted, Kun is noted as being good. And Vodo calls him the best he had ever trained, but Malak's no slouch with a saber either. As noted above, the official website profile specifically cites him as a badass duellist among the Jedi Order. What you're doing is making an assertion and then failing to provide proof; This also spits in the face of the very carefully worded instructions of the thread.
Kun's unique saber and style should be able to confuse Malak.
I don't see how it would 'confuse' Malak. Malak's no newbie to lightsaber use. Doublebladed lightsabers were in vogue during the Jedi Civil War even. So this assertion begs for proof.
Even if it is star forge Malak, Kun's raw power, force abilities, and saber prowess should be able to get a landing blow.
Except that you can't substantiate the difference between "Star Forge" Malak (Who falls under plot devices/deus ex machine, etc.) and Exar Kun anyways.
I think this one is easier than most people think. I firmly believe (and can support) the fact that Mace Windu, in terms of lightsaber combat, is the most dangerous and effective combatant against a dark sider (as shown by Palpatine).
Good for you. Beliefs aren't enough. I want an argument.
Without using an A>B>C argument, Mace's Vaapad and shatterpoint should give him a landing blow.
How so? Everyone acts like Shatterpoint is unstoppable and always working. Several times in the novel Shatterpoint, Mace's ability doesn't seem to manifest or he clearly can't see a Shatterpoint in a given situation. There's also the nagging point that Shatterpoint only gives the user the ability to see weakness; it doesn't give one the ability to capitolize on it.
Second, Vaapad is a built-up version of Juyo, which relies heavily on drawing on one's own winning urges coupled with erratic, powerful Force-aided motions. Nowhere in the Form's description is it noted as being "the best lightsaber form against lightsaber users". That would be Makashi, of which Dooku is a master of. I do believe that it's absolutely unstoppable in a commando-type situation; Vaapad users implement blaster bolt cover on par with or surpassing a Soresu user, and Force-aided movements on par with Ataru and Sokan users. In an open situation, Mace Windu's style flourishes. But the bottom line is that it's not "teh ultimate!!111" form with no weaknesses. And Count Dooku is most certainly not as inexperienced or untrained in the Force as Kar Vastor.
I'll say it again, MAce is the most efficient opponent of a darksider when sabers are involved.
WTF? Where is there proof of this? Because his Vaapad gives him an edge in holding off Sidious' considerable Sith Lightning?
Episode III Novelisation: p.332-333:
Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.
And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.
This seems to indicate that Mace Windu could be the only trained Jedi with an inherent resistance to Sidious' lightning. Unlike Yoda who had to use his own energy to absorb the attack, Mace Windu could allow it to filter back out. This would be awesome if Dooku was some kind of idiot and intended to use his lightning to defeat Mace Windu without resorting to his lightsaber. However, we all know he's not that kind of moron.
Likewise, Vaapad's "greatness" seems to have put Mace on rather equal footing according to the same source (Mind you, Stover is the guy who created Shatterpoints and refined Vaapad):
P.330
There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
He had learned that it is fear which gives the darkness power.
He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But-
Neither did he have power over it.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow [Palpatine]; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
He will eventually find Dooku's shatterpoint.
Assumption based on what? Stover makes it apparent that Shatterpoint is Mace's unique gift, but that it's not infallible and sometimes there's no Shatterpoint forthcoming. In no piece of work does Mace ever note Dooku's shatterpoint, and when they fought before TPM, Mace still had the ability and he still lost.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
DS:I agree that Anakin's physical power would give him an edge, but you also neglected one important fact here: nowhere did I indicate that this is Anakin enraged and full of the darkside as he was on Mustafar. I deliberately omitted it and many people are deliberately referencing it and making the assumption that Anakin is going to be balls-to-the-wall pissed and batting Obi-Wan around like a handball. Darth Vader being enraged with the darkside and hating Obi-Wan to the uttermost is a plot device and is null and void for the purpose of the match. Anakin was as of RotS is not yet Darth Vader, so this precludes any content from the last half of the movie.
Ok Janus, if this isn't off the wall ANakin, which is it? As I recall, Anakin is usually "off the wall" when he can't defeat somebody. While Obiwan can hold him off, it will just make Anakin angry, and while Anakin seems to have unlimited reserves of energy, Obiwan does not.
Granted, Kun is noted as being good. And Vodo calls him the best he had ever trained, but Malak's no slouch with a saber either. As noted above, the official website profile specifically cites him as a badass duellist among the Jedi Order. What you're doing is making an assertion and then failing to provide proof; This also spits in the face of the very carefully worded instructions of the thread.
I don't see how it would 'confuse' Malak. Malak's no newbie to lightsaber use. Doublebladed lightsabers were in vogue during the Jedi Civil War even. So this assertion begs for proof.
Except that you can't substantiate the difference between "Star Forge" Malak (Who falls under plot devices/deus ex machine, etc.) and Exar Kun anyways.
How so? Everyone acts like Shatterpoint is unstoppable and always working. Several times in the novel Shatterpoint, Mace's ability doesn't seem to manifest or he clearly can't see a Shatterpoint in a given situation. There's also the nagging point that Shatterpoint only gives the user the ability to see weakness; it doesn't give one the ability to capitolize on it.Second, Vaapad is a built-up version of Juyo, which relies heavily on drawing on one's own winning urges coupled with erratic, powerful Force-aided motions. Nowhere in the Form's description is it noted as being "the best lightsaber form against lightsaber users". That would be Makashi, of which Dooku is a master of. I do believe that it's absolutely unstoppable in a commando-type situation; Vaapad users implement blaster bolt cover on par with or surpassing a Soresu user, and Force-aided movements on par with Ataru and Sokan users. In an open situation, Mace Windu's style flourishes. But the bottom line is that it's not "teh ultimate!!111" form with no weaknesses. And Count Dooku is most certainly not as inexperienced or untrained in the Force as Kar Vastor.
Look, I'm not going to argue the inner workings of Vaapad and Shatterpoint. Mace was able to use Vaapad to counter Sidious' lightning. Mace used his SHATTERPOINT to put Sidious on his ass in the saber combat. I am not stating that his 2 skills are infallible, but if he was able to do it to a superior force user and saber combatant, what in the world makes you think he doesn't have the ability to do it to an inferior one (inferior to Sidious)? Unless of course, if you're still operating under the theory that Dooku>Sidious.
Also, I don't know why you mention Dooku besting Mace, because you and I both know that they fought when they were still training padawans, before Mace even developed Vaapad and Shatterpoint, so that point is moot.
When I state that Mace is the most efficient light saber combatant against the darkside, it's because he can channel the darkside through his "Vaapad", and release it back on the dark sider user. And I'm sure you know what he can do with the shatterpoint technique.
In terms of voice, he's better than Axl yea.
He's better by far. Perry has a little thing called 'range'. He can sing damn high, damn medium, and damn low. Axl just has 'damn high'. His voice is like that of Geddy Lee; absolute shit.
But I wouldn't ever compare his voice to Freddie Mercury, nor Richard Marx.
Vocally? Richard Marx doesn't compare to Perry or Mercury, based on technical ability alone. Marx has never indicated the prowess required to hit notes that Mercury (a baritone who can sing tenor) can hit, much less Perry (who is a stronger tenor by far than Mercury). Perry and Mercury are on par with one another, but I can give Mercury the edge for the simple fact that the man is baritone and yet can force himself to sing tenor notes. That's hard to do. Add to the fact that he was also trained in opera and was a heavy, chain-smoker. That's pretty damn good.
However, a lot of his songs that I play on piano, were not written by him, but by Jonathan Cain, whereas Axl Rose, Prince, and Richard Marx write ALL of their lyrics AND songs. Guns N Roses 4 lyfe
The only popular Journey song written by just Jonathan Cain would be "Faithfully". "Open Arms", "Separate Ways", "Who's Cryin' Now" were written by both Cain and Perry (and sometimes Neal Schon, Journey's guitarist).
Originally posted by Gideon
He's better by far. Perry has a little thing called 'range'. He can sing damn high, damn medium, and damn low. Axl just has 'damn high'. His voice is like that of Geddy Lee; absolute shit.
Vocally? Richard Marx doesn't compare to Perry or Mercury, based on technical ability alone. Marx has never indicated the prowess required to hit notes that Mercury (a baritone who can sing tenor) can hit, much less Perry (who is a stronger tenor by far than Mercury). Perry and Mercury are on par with one another, but I can give Mercury the edge for the simple fact that the man is baritone and yet can force himself to sing tenor notes. That's hard to do. Add to the fact that he was also trained in opera and was a heavy, chain-smoker. That's pretty damn good.
The only popular Journey song written by just Jonathan Cain would be "Faithfully". "Open Arms", "Separate Ways", "Who's Cryin' Now" were written by both Cain and Perry (and sometimes Neal Schon, Journey's guitarist).
I understand, but can Perry write lyrics AND Music? If you take a look at Guns N Roses songs, or Richard Marx songs, you'd see that all of them are written by Axl and Marx, I believe.
Either way, his voice is good and his talent as a musician is top tier.
Define "top tier". I'd consider that class to be the likes of Neil Peart, Jimi Hendrix, Freddie Mercury, ect. Axl really does not compare to these giants.
I'm not sure if you've listened to the bulk of Richard Marx songs, otherwise you wouldn't be making this assertion. I think all 3 of them are the best of the best but I have some bias towards Marx because of his impeccable songwriting skills, mixed with his incredible range. I would say Elvis is better than all 3 of them in pure singing abilities.
While I doubt I've explored Richard Marx's catalogue as well as you have, I can assure you that I know enough about him to make a statement. The fact that he has never been lauded as "one of the best" singers on technical (vocal) ability also leads me to believe this. I don't doubt Marx is a great singer and a great songwriter but that doesn't make him one of the best. As for pure vocals, Elvis is actually one of the greats -- but he doesn't compare to Mercury or Perry.
I understand, but can Perry write lyrics AND Music? If you take a look at Guns N Roses songs, or Richard Marx songs, you'd see that all of them are written by Axl and Marx, I believe.
I believe he has helped write the music. He is a lyricist, but I would say that Neal Schon and Jonathan Cain wrote most of the music. But I don't play an instrument.