Originally posted by starking
Like he's going to be constant, whe he was weakened for 1000 years...[/B]
Originally posted by starking
Again...I grow tired of repeating this. If a feat occurs in a timeline where the said character WAS WEAKER, then it should be valid. Unless Gds Seid NEVER EXISTED PERIOD, then you can't say such a thing. So remember this major point, Gds Ds DID exist at one point of time. As in he wasn't a "possible character", but one who resided in another outcome. Same character, same power set, only WEAKER!
Originally posted by starking
Who know's, you could be right....however this version of Orion wasn't inferior to his younger self.....which makes it alot different, from Gds.
Originally posted by starking
The only way for this to be true, is for Gds Ds to never exist.....and he did, and he's the SAME person as mainstream Ds, and he was weaker, and he DIDN'T do ANYTHING to suggest his power set was radically different, from current Seid's.
Originally posted by starking
Lmao, THE MAINSTREAM DCU! What's so hard to understand? Not the Dcua, or the Elseworlds tales, those aren't apart of the MAINSTREAM DCU. Alternate timelines/histories ARE.
Originally posted by starking
Thank's for informing me, I didn't know this at all.......Btw, that doesn't change the fact, that the rule could be flawed.
Originally posted by starking
😆 😆 😆 😆 🤣 😆Are you talking about our argument, in H/p Doomsday vs Thanos thread? I wasn't arguing against "in character", I was arguing for what would be more in character. You have a really bad habit, for putting words in people's mouths, and you need to learn to how to cut it out.
Originally posted by starking
Ds has a sense of honor and there's NO denying that fact. However, Seid isn't so foolish to let his pride get in his way. Meaning you only assume Ds holds back his "exotic abilities", by looking at ONE story from the Doomsday annual, and ONE statement where he didn't even IMPLY, he was holding back. So no, whenever Ds lost to Supes in Apokolips now, Action comics(Bryne's and the other one), and Superman and Batman, it wasn't because he was going easy on Superman, but because he wasn't that powerful to begin with, in those stories. Which is fine with me, seeing how Darkseid has bunch of different feats that makes up for those portrayals. Btw, if bloodlust is a forum rule, how can you debate against it? Don't you think debating on a character's FULL potential, is little more interesting than debating on how he/she uses their abilities?
Or later when I said...
Originally posted by darthgoober
Yes but you're overlooking this part..."[B]but still within the character's personality
"
[/B]
Originally posted by starking
That's seems to defeat the purpose, of bloodlust. Let's say we put Superman into a situation, where he has to go all out. If he has to save the lives of some of his friends by KILLING his opponent, then don't you think he'll be in character?
[/B]
Originally posted by starking
And I like the rules in this forum, I just dislike the "no alternate timelines" one, because like no Non canon sources, this rule may not apply to certain characters. That's why I made the Lt comparison, because some things don't work for certain characters. I've said this over and over, and hopefully you understand what I mean now.
Originally posted by darthgooberUmm no. What I was saying is that version of the character, lacked those abilities for so long. How can you have more skill over a power(or a level of power), that you've lacked for so long? And their's no evidence what so ever, that Ds has to practice with his tp. For all we know, that ability can be used with ease. Thus your comparison is kinda....irrelevent.
So you're saying that DS's powers and abilities might fluctuate depending on the circumstances he faces? Well then in that case, the GDS is definitely invalid because who knows what all have happened to DS between the 20th and 30th centuries to increase his skill with tp, for all we know he learned all kinds of things in that period. I'm not saying that he DID, just that he COULD have. That's why it's invalid because we don't know.
Don't overspeculate on this, some of the possibilities can be to ridiculous to be true. The best thing to do is, to fill in the blanks , with the most rational theories. I HIGHLY doubt he had a power up, because if I'm not mistaken he commented on how weak he was, and doubt that comparison would be directed, to how he was with a power up.
Weaker than what? DS has the ability to absorb outside power sources right? That means that for all we know he got and lost some massive power up, and he was actually weaker than his powered up self. Am I speculating, yes. But I'm able to speculate because the facts regarding the subject aren't definite enough.
Orion doing such a feat, is him growing in power. The difference between that and Gds is, Seid actually commeted o how he wasn't up to par, with his youger self. While the exact level of power is unknown, it's still below what he used to be. And we don't know if he was more experianced. He was out of commision for like 1000 years, so what the hell would he be doing on Apokolips? You have to remember that he was recently awakened in that story.
But do we credit Orion with the feat, yes or no? After all same power set, same character, and same level of power. And before you say that GDS DS was weaker than his previous self, while GDS DS STARTED OFF weaker in that arc, he increased his power by absorbing outside energy sources until he was at his former level. So he was actually as powerful as he was previously, but he was more experienced as well.
Not really. In the eyes of one who was effected by time, they'll will never remeber what happened, and they'll live through a different life. However, Superboy and the reader SAW this happen, with their own eyes. So if this never existed, how is it that they can recall the experiance? Was their visit just a hallucination? Were they smoking pot?
No he DIDN'T exist because that implies past tense and the arc hasn't happened yet. At most all you can say is that he WILL exist in the 30th century.
Let me make it simple, Gds Ds=current Ds. Gds Ds HAD to exist at one point of time. Do the math.
But fortunately enough for us, they're NOT a part of DS's current character according to forum rules.
Not necessarily, forum rules aren't made by groups of mods deciding what's what and what's not. Take for example how we could use non comic related characters, and now we can not. Mods can't edit the rules whenever they feel like it. Meaning somethings were'nt alwats the same.
It COULD be, but it's been in effect longer than either of us have been members so it's what we signed on for so that's the way it is. The GDS is(and has always been) invalid to DS's current character.
How about you put my Superman example in bold letters aswell, and you'll see what I was getting at.
I'm sorry but in my mind things like...Or later when I said...
And you responded with...
.... implies that you DO have a problem with the "in character" rule. If I misread you on it then that's my bad. But that's the way it came off at the time.
Correction, Gds Ds was inadmissible under Digi's rules. The "original" forum rules, had no such thing. That's why I think this ruling is more of a opinion, than an actual standard to follow. Digi says we can't use non comic characters, but is that a forum rule or Digi's?
I've always known what you meant, it's just that you're not liking the rules doesn't change them or make them go away. It's like I've been saying for months now, the GDS is inadmissible for current DS under forum rules.
Originally posted by starking
Umm no. What I was saying is that version of the character, lacked those abilities for so long. How can you have more skill over a power(or a level of power), that you've lacked for so long? And their's no evidence what so ever, that Ds has to practice with his tp. For all we know, that ability can be used with ease. Thus your comparison is kinda....irrelevent.[/B]
Originally posted by starking
Don't overspeculate on this, some of the possibilities can be to ridiculous to be true. The best thing to do is, to fill in the blanks , with the most rational theories. I HIGHLY doubt he had a power up, because if I'm not mistaken he commented on how weak he was, and doubt that comparison would be directed, to how he was with a power up.
Originally posted by starking
Orion doing such a feat, is him growing in power. The difference between that and Gds is, Seid actually commeted o how he wasn't up to par, with his youger self. While the exact level of power is unknown, it's still below what he used to be. And we don't know if he was more experianced. He was out of commision for like 1000 years, so what the hell would he be doing on Apokolips? You have to remember that he was recently awakened in that story.
Originally posted by starking
Not really. In the eyes of one who was effected by time, they'll will never remeber what happened, and they'll live through a different life. However, Superboy and the reader SAW this happen, with their own eyes. So if this never existed, how is it that they can recall the experiance? Was their visit just a hallucination? Were they smoking pot?
Originally posted by starking
Let me make it simple, Gds Ds=current Ds. Gds Ds HAD to exist at one point of time. Do the math.
Originally posted by starking
Not necessarily, forum rules aren't made by groups of mods deciding what's what and what's not. Take for example how we could use non comic related characters, and now we can not. Mods can't edit the rules whenever they feel like it. Meaning somethings were'nt always the same.
Originally posted by starking
How about you put my Superman example in bold letters aswell, and you'll see what I was getting at.
Originally posted by starking
Correction, Gds Ds was inadmissible under Digi's rules. The "original" forum rules, had no such thing. That's why I think this ruling is more of a opinion, than an actual standard to follow. Digi says we can't use non comic characters, but is that a forum rule or Digi's?
Originally posted by darthgoobervery good point about history and that 30 th century things arent in those books and havent happened yet. so why count them today. reason being u cant. ds hasnt experienced it yet. so u cant count a feat for a guy who hasnt lived it.
I already showed evidence that New Gods learn how to better use their abilities through experience just like everybody else.Or you could not fill in the blanks at all, and just use the GDS as a different version of the character as is specified in the forum rules. You see THAT'S the very reason why alternate timelines are barred, there are just to many blanks that need to be filled in and the only way to do it is to speculate.
It's not Orion growing in power if we credit him with the feat now the same way you're wanting to DS. And again, DS STARTED the GDS weaker, but he absorbed numerous outside power sources in that arc and ended up back at his original level. So he was just as powerful, but more experienced. Also there's no way DS had been out of commission for 1,000 years if the story took place in the 30th century. Think about it, we're in the 21st century now, so unless DS got put down sometime in the 90's(which was the end of the 20th century) it had to be less than that.
Superboy went into a FUTURE that hasn't actually taken place yet. And I've read lots of comics and books and seen plenty of things like Startrek that are set in the future, that doesn't mean that the future has already happened.
Let me make it simple for you now, we currently live in the 21st century, so how many things from the 30th century are in the history books? None right? You know why....BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET.
Do you remember there ever being period of time where the "No Non Cannon Sources" rule WASN'T in place?
I already acknowledged that I may have misread you, and followed it up with "But that's the way it came off at the time.".
No it was always inadmissible, they just didn't go into enough detail with the rule. And it's the FORUM rule, not Digi's.
Originally posted by quanchi112
that would be like me telling you to drop this and leave it alone with darthgoober.
Maybe you should just drop this and leave darthgoober to debate. Since all you're actually doing here (and in other threads) is just cheerleading... ermm
Originally posted by quanchi112
ive told starking this for months. good show.💃
Originally posted by quanchi112
great points darthgoober but ive spent months giving him different scenarios as to why u cant count a feat until u do it. he just likes darkseid to much and wants to count it. thats the bottom line.i told him before if i practice hard at benchpressing and in 2 years i press 300lbs i cant count the feat until i do it two years from now. its be like me counting it before i tdid it. it makes no sense. to count it it must have happened. bottom line.
Originally posted by quanchi112
👆
Originally posted by quanchi112
this makes a lot of sense here. very good points. this feat isnt all that impressive anymore. another feat taking a hit here. moves down a few notches. but it doesnt count anyways as it hasnt happened yet.😉
Originally posted by quanchi112
simply awesome!!!!nice work darthgoober.
Originally posted by quanchi112
you owned him. i mean without a doubt.😉
And even when you have been trying to debate in this thread, no has bothered to respond to you. haermm
Originally posted by darthgooberBe real, if you have a certain level of power at your disposal, then how will you be able to be more "skilled" , with a much higher level? When you gain power, you'll have to learn how to maintain. That defeats the purpose, of practicing. If you learn a new powerful karate technique, then will you practice to improve your handling over that said ability, or will you have mastered it as soon as you learned it? Nope! Ds was in a weakened state for MANY years, and most likely did NOTHING while he was stuck on Apokolips. In order to have experiance, you have to actually DO SOMETHING.
I already showed evidence that New Gods learn how to better use their abilities through experience just like everybody else.
The problem is, that wasn't a different version of the character. That's like saying "call yourself asian", even though that's not your race. That is still the same character, as mainstream Seid. If he you kill yourself in the past, you'll not be alive in the future. Thus proving my point.
Or you could not fill in the blanks at all, and just use the GDS as a different version of the character as is specified in the forum rules. You see THAT'S the very reason why alternate timelines are barred, there are just to many blanks that need to be filled in and the only way to do it is to speculate.
Now I could've sworn that Ds, commented on how he was weaker than himself in the past. Even one of the most knowledgable New Gods advocate, Desaad/Astro, said so himself. And a again, you can't be more experianced if you DON'T do anything. Unless Seid was training or something, he shouldn't be more skilled AT ALL! He didn't get back on the job, until the time period of that story.
It's not Orion growing in power if we credit him with the feat now the same way you're wanting to DS. And again, DS STARTED the GDS weaker, but he absorbed numerous outside power sources in that arc and ended up back at his original level. So he was just as powerful, but more experienced. Also there's no way DS had been out of commission for 1,000 years if the story took place in the 30th century. Think about it, we're in the 21st century now, so unless DS got put down sometime in the 90's(which was the end of the 20th century) it had to be less than that.
That's not what I'm trying to imply. I not trying to say that future will be EXACTLY like it was in Gds, I'm saying at one point of time it did EXIST. Which is why I made that comment on how characters that would be changed along with time, will have no memory whats so ever about the how history was prior to that change. You see there's a difference between Never existing and no longer. An example of something that NEVER existing, would be a car with legs. An example of something NO longer existing, would be a document that is removed from your cpu. Two different things. The document coming into being ACTUALLY happened, where the car with legs coming NEVER DID. There's evidence to prove the one that DID exist(I'm refering to the alternate timeline) and none to prove the existance of the car.
Superboy went into a FUTURE that hasn't actually taken place yet. And I've read lots of comics and books and seen plenty of things like Startrek that are set in the future, that doesn't mean that the future has already happened.
We have no emphasis what so ever, on what will happen. We do have some for Losh timeline(Superboy). Remember, it's not the timeline STILL existing that matters, it's knowing if at one point it DID.
Let me make it simple for you now, we currently live in the 21st century, so how many things from the 30th century are in the history books? None right? You know why....BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T HAPPENED YET.
Nope, our forum rules are the same ones that are at other forums. I'm not sure if they originated on Kmc.
Do you remember there ever being period of time where the "No Non Cannon Sources" rule WASN'T in place?
That's cool, I was just informing you.
I already acknowledged that I may have misread you, and followed it up with "But that's the way it came off at the time.".
Not really, in Digi's mind that's inadmissible, because mods only deal with the rules they were left with. Any change done to them, was under their decesion. You say Tron was the one who brought the rules into this forum right? So unless Digi co-created the rules, would'nt that mean what I'm saying is true?
No it was always inadmissible, they just didn't go into enough detail with the rule. And it's the FORUM rule, not Digi's.
Originally posted by Evil_AshThat's how you are, when your an attention whore....
Maybe you should just drop this and leave darthgoober to debate. Since all you're actually doing here (and in other threads) is just cheerleading... ermmAnd even when you have been trying to debate in this thread, no has bothered to respond to you. haermm
Originally posted by starkingheres an easy scenario for you. if the new orleans saints win the superbowl in three years but have the same exact team as this year do we credit them with the feat now becuz we see into the future?
Be real, if you have a certain level of power at your disposal, then how will you be able to be more "skilled" , with a much higher level? When you gain power, you'll have to learn how to maintain. That defeats the purpose, of practicing. If you learn a new powerful karate technique, then will you practice to improve your handling over that said ability, or will you have mastered it as soon as you learned it? Nope! Ds was in a weakened state for MANY years, and most likely did NOTHING while he was stuck on Apokolips. In order to have experiance, you have to actually DO SOMETHING.The problem is, that wasn't a different version of the character. That's like saying "call yourself asian", even though that's not your race. That is still the same character, as mainstream Seid. If he you kill yourself in the past, you'll not be alive in the future. Thus proving my point.
Now I could've sworn that Ds, commented on how he was weaker than himself in the past. Even one of the most knowledgable New Gods advocate, Desaad/Astro, said so himself. And a again, you can't be more experianced if you DON'T do anything. Unless Seid was training or something, he shouldn't be more skilled AT ALL! He didn't get back on the job, until the time period of that story.
That's not what I'm trying to imply. I not trying to say that future will be EXACTLY like it was in Gds, I'm saying at one point of time it did EXIST. Which is why I made that comment on how characters that would be changed along with time, will have no memory whats so ever about the how history was prior to that change. You see there's a difference between Never existing and no longer. An example of something that NEVER existing, would be a car with legs. An example of something NO longer existing, would be a document that is removed from your cpu. Two different things. The document coming into being ACTUALLY happened, where the car with legs coming NEVER DID. There's evidence to prove the one that DID exist(I'm refering to the alternate timeline) and none to prove the existance of the car.
We have no emphasis what so ever, on what will happen. We do have some for Losh timeline(Superboy). Remember, it's not the timeline STILL existing that matters, it's knowing if at one point it DID.
Nope, our forum rules are the same ones that are at other forums. I'm not sure if they originated on Kmc.
That's cool, I was just informing you.
Not really, in Digi's mind that's inadmissible, because mods only deal with the rules they were left with. Any change done to them, was under their decesion. You say Tron was the one who brought the rules into this forum right? So unless Digi co-created the rules, would'nt that mean what I'm saying is true? [/B]
no, not until they win the superbowl. u cant count it as a feat until it happens.
no disputing this logic as it is sound.
Originally posted by Evil_Ashi make my points and they have been read. that is all that matters to me. but thank you for paying enough attention as to what has been going on.
Maybe you should just drop this and leave darthgoober to debate. Since all you're actually doing here (and in other threads) is just cheerleading... ermmAnd even when you have been trying to debate in this thread, no has bothered to respond to you. haermm
i know this interests you somewhat or else you wouldnt be responding to me.
Can't believe I forgot about this...
Originally posted by starking
Be real, if you have a certain level of power at your disposal, then how will you be able to be more "skilled" , with a much higher level? When you gain power, you'll have to learn how to maintain. That defeats the purpose, of practicing. If you learn a new powerful karate technique, then will you practice to improve your handling over that said ability, or will you have mastered it as soon as you learned it? Nope! Ds was in a weakened state for MANY years, and most likely did NOTHING while he was stuck on Apokolips. In order to have experiance, you have to actually DO SOMETHING.The problem is, that wasn't a different version of the character. That's like saying "call yourself asian", even though that's not your race. That is still the same character, as mainstream Seid. If he you kill yourself in the past, you'll not be alive in the future. Thus proving my point.
Now I could've sworn that Ds, commented on how he was weaker than himself in the past. Even one of the most knowledgable New Gods advocate, Desaad/Astro, said so himself. And a again, you can't be more experianced if you DON'T do anything. Unless Seid was training or something, he shouldn't be more skilled AT ALL! He didn't get back on the job, until the time period of that story.
That's not what I'm trying to imply. I not trying to say that future will be EXACTLY like it was in Gds, I'm saying at one point of time it did EXIST. Which is why I made that comment on how characters that would be changed along with time, will have no memory whats so ever about the how history was prior to that change. You see there's a difference between Never existing and no longer. An example of something that NEVER existing, would be a car with legs. An example of something NO longer existing, would be a document that is removed from your cpu. Two different things. The document coming into being ACTUALLY happened, where the car with legs coming NEVER DID. There's evidence to prove the one that DID exist(I'm refering to the alternate timeline) and none to prove the existance of the car.
We have no emphasis what so ever, on what will happen. We do have some for Losh timeline(Superboy). Remember, it's not the timeline STILL existing that matters, it's knowing if at one point it DID.
Nope, our forum rules are the same ones that are at other forums. I'm not sure if they originated on Kmc.
That's cool, I was just informing you.
Not really, in Digi's mind that's inadmissible, because mods only deal with the rules they were left with. Any change done to them, was under their decesion. You say Tron was the one who brought the rules into this forum right? So unless Digi co-created the rules, would'nt that mean what I'm saying is true? [/B]
Originally posted by darthgooberWhy did you bump this?
Can't believe I forgot about this...Look we don't say that Warlock has established a universal Church of Truth just because his future self from an alternate 616 timeline(the Magus) did it, and by the exact same token we don't say that DS mentally dominated 3 billion Daxamites just because he did so in an alternate future, it's that simple. You don't have to like or agree with the rule, but the fact is that it IS a rule so this discussion is absolutely pointless and has done nothing but take(and keep) this thread off topic.
Originally posted by darthgooberWell, the thread went all the way to page 3 or 2, and it's been dead for 2 days now. There's no point of adressing me because.....I kinda lost interest in this topic. How about we agree to disagree, and just leave it at that. My enthusiasm is pretty much gone, and even though there are more points I COULD adress, I feel it's uneccasary and best to let our argument die.
Because I'd originally meant to address your post but happened to forget about it, and because I wanted some more opinions on the matches listed in the opening post.
Originally posted by starking
Well, the thread went all the way to page 3 or 2, and it's been dead for 2 days now. There's no point of adressing me because.....I kinda lost interest in this topic. How about we agree to disagree, and just leave it at that. My enthusiasm is pretty much gone, and even though there are more points I COULD adress, I feel it's uneccasary and best to let our argument die.
Originally posted by darthgooberWell with the reality gem, Thanos could probally pull off a 4/5 win. Then again, Ds is basically a minuature Ig, in that he posses ever ability imaginable(only with a limit). I think that the rest aren't enough to put Thanos at skyfather level(such as pc Superman, and what not). Btw, there's no pre-ale Ds, I don't think he's gotten the real one, seeing how in Firestorm he kidnapped Martin Stein, because he knew the equation.
I only addressed you because our conversation was left hanging. I have no problem agreeing to disagree about whether or not the rule is "right"(and actually meant to a while back rather than go into WHY it's right), but the fact is that it IS the rule. So with that being said, how do you see the fights going down?