Who IS the best Jedi knight?

Originally posted by Gideon
Now that is -- and would be -- an excellent debate, Se7in. One could argue that Qui-Gon's 'foresight' was vastly superior any of his Jedi contemporaries at the time: including Masters Windu and Yoda. If I recall, correctly, Count Dooku mused that it was Yoda's blind devotion to the Jedi Code and related dogma that prevented him from seeing the complete picture (that is to say Darth Sidious's presence in the Republic, the ascendance of the dark side, the approaching endgame); Dooku pondered that how could Yoda be expected to see it, however, when he willingly had one eye shut?

That is not to say nor imply that Qui-Gon was more powerful than Yoda, but even Yoda himself laments in the RotS novelization that he was a fool not to have listened to Qui-Gon's knowledge and advice earlier, and he declares himself 'Qui-Gon's apprentice'. Never forget, it Qui-Gon who learned the way to becoming "one with the Force" and yet still retain some sort of sentience.

And, ultimately, Qui-Gon was correct: Anakin redeemed himself by destroying Emperor Palpatine and, in doing so, rebalancing the Force itself.

Interesting point of view. I just don't like the fact that Qui-Gon put prophecy and foresight before reason and logic. While he did manage to become one with the Force, he wasn't the first to do so, as it had been done for millenia, albeit it was a lost technique.

I didn't say he was the first one to do so, did I?

Originally posted by Gideon
I didn't say he was the first one to do so, did I?

No, but you give him special recognition for using a technique that was used by many.

Originally posted by Se7in
No, but you give him special recognition for using a technique that was used by many.

I gave him special recognition for a technique that enabled him to do what Yoda -- the most powerful Jedi in history prior to the ascension of Luke Skywalker (ie: more powerful than the 'many' you reference) -- was unable to do prior to declaring himself "Qui-Gon's apprentice". This not even mentioning the fact that the Jedi's ability to sense and see with the Force was stifled due to the dark side's ascendancy through the persona of Darth Sidious, the perpetual "unbalance" in the Force. When the 'many' you cite have achieved such a thing in such a tumultous occasion, let me know.

Qui-Gon is still my pick. He's also very wise.
"And as far as your wisdom goes, you're no Qui-Gon Jin!"-Anakin Skywalker to Obi-Wan.

It was more Obi's fault than Jin's that Anakin fell.

Originally posted by Gideon
I gave him special recognition for a technique that enabled him to do what Yoda -- the most powerful Jedi in history prior to the ascension of Luke Skywalker (ie: more powerful than the 'many' you reference) -- was unable to do prior to declaring himself "Qui-Gon's apprentice". This not even mentioning the fact that the Jedi's ability to sense and see with the Force was stifled due to the dark side's ascendancy through the persona of Darth Sidious, the perpetual "unbalance" in the Force. When the 'many' you cite have achieved such a thing in such a tumultous occasion, let me know.

Yoda's inability to perform such a feat had nothing to do with his power, he had never learned of the technique before.

You're seriously overstating this ability to see with the Force thing. Duron Qel-Droma fought during the Great Sith War as well as the Great Hunt and still managed to have visions of Revan's victory over Malak and Bastila's turn to the Dark Side.

I'm not trying to argue that Qui-Gon didn't do a good thing, but being considered one of "the" best Jedi Knights ever? I disagree. But your opinion is your own, and I respect it.

Qui-Gon's foresight had nothing to do with Anakin turning to the Dark Side. Qui-Gon had no idea Anakin would become what he did and do what he did.

Logic and reason are vey limiting. There was no warning signs about Anakin beyond "he's too old to begin the training." Qui-Gon did what he thought was best based on feeling and instinct. He was positive fate/The Force had led him to Anakin so he could become the Chosen One.

Now if Qui-Gon ignored these things, Obi-Wan Kenobi might never have become a Jedi at all. Thanks to the strict and limiting dogma/logic of the Jedi, Obi-Wan might have ended up working in the Agricultural Corps simply because he was too old and hadn't found a Master.

But fate and The Force drove Qui-Gon to Obi-Wan, keeping them together for adventure after adventure until finally, Qui-Gon did accept the young Kenobi as his Padawan.

Yeah, blame Kenobi for Anakin.

Originally posted by Violent2Dope
Yeah, blame Kenobi for Anakin.

Why is it somehow Kenobi's fault that Anakin is a whiny, self-victimizing power hungry asshat who is so dense that his "seduction" to the dark side consists of some old man telling him he's really good and that the people he's lived with all his life and fought with and defended were
"really bad" and "holding him back". Let's be quite frank here- I'm sure there's a lot of disgruntled yet talented generals, warriors, and soldiers from all sets of time and genre, but none of them were so easily swayed as Anakin.

Anakin: They hold me back! Wah!!!

Palpatine: You should be power-hungry and selfish. I can show you how. You should kill the Jedi, because they're going to take over an entire universe-wide government by swinging their lightsabers and holding you back.

Anakin: You're right!

*Kills the Jedi*

There's a saying that goes "You can't save them all; you just have to hope you're not near them when they finally go off." Well, Anakin was going to go off. Period.

You can blame Qui-Gon, or Kenobi, or Mace Windu and Yoda and the Tooth Fairy, in the end Anakin's choices were Anakin's choices.

Yoda's inability to perform such a feat had nothing to do with his power, he had never learned of the technique before.

I'm aware of that:

That is not to say nor imply that Qui-Gon was more powerful than Yoda,

...I'm not suggesting that Qui-Gon is somehow stronger, or that Yoda is somehow weaker, or that they are even on par. What I am suggesting is that he -- without learning any 'technique' -- became one with the Force when the most powerful Jedi in the history of the Order prior to Luke Skywalker didn't know the technique himself, Yoda's age and experience notwithstanding. Yes, that is very impressive.

You're seriously overstating this ability to see with the Force thing. Duron Qel-Droma fought during the Great Sith War as well as the Great Hunt and still managed to have visions of Revan's victory over Malak and Bastila's turn to the Dark Side.

No. I'm not.

Mace Windu in Attack of the Clones: "Perhaps we need to inform the Senate that the Jedi are losing their power to sense in the Force."

The Clone Wars' impact on the Force far outstrips anything previous. This includes the Great Sith War. Palpatine and his Sith presence put it in a perpetual state of unbalance, thus requiring the birth of the Chosen One to correct this error. Numerous sources including Labyrinth of Evil and the RotS novelization have outright said that the Sith and the Jedi have "grown stronger" over the years in comparison to the old days -- but the dark side ascendancy is stifling their ability to sense the Force.

Ergo, it is ridiculous to even attempt to compare the two instances, Se7in. The instance of the Force during the Great Sith War is nothing in comparison.

I'm not trying to argue that Qui-Gon didn't do a good thing, but being considered one of "the" best Jedi Knights ever? I disagree. But your opinion is your own, and I respect it.

That's fine. But try not to take my argument out of context or make invalid comparisons.

@ Janus:

...I personally don't consider it as cut and dry (though it is close). You can't blame any person other than Anakin for his fall -- he made the choice -- but that isn't to say that he simply did so just because he felt like it. He was manipulated into such a state of immaturity. He went from a kid who loved the hell out of everyone he met -- people he went out of his way to help -- into a dark psychopath. You don't make such a transformation without special circumstances.

But whoever tried to blame it on Obi-Wan is... lol... laughable.

I don't really think it was Obi's fault Anakin fell, my post was mostly aimed at the dude who said it was Jin's fault.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Why is it somehow Kenobi's fault that Anakin is a whiny, self-victimizing power hungry asshat who is so dense that his "seduction" to the dark side consists of some old man telling him he's really good and that the people he's lived with all his life and fought with and defended were
"really bad" and "holding him back". Let's be quite frank here- I'm sure there's a lot of disgruntled yet talented generals, warriors, and soldiers from all sets of time and genre, but none of them were so easily swayed as Anakin.

Anakin: They hold me back! Wah!!!

Palpatine: You should be power-hungry and selfish. I can show you how. You should kill the Jedi, because they're going to take over an entire universe-wide government by swinging their lightsabers and holding you back.

Anakin: You're right!

*Kills the Jedi*

There's a saying that goes "You can't save them all; you just have to hope you're not near them when they finally go off." Well, Anakin was going to go off. Period.

You can blame Qui-Gon, or Kenobi, or Mace Windu and Yoda and the Tooth Fairy, in the end Anakin's choices were Anakin's choices.

Lol that cartoon is hilarious.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm aware of that:

...I'm not suggesting that Qui-Gon is somehow stronger, or that Yoda is somehow weaker, or that they are even on par. What I am suggesting is that he -- without learning any 'technique' -- became one with the Force when the most powerful Jedi in the history of the Order prior to Luke Skywalker didn't know the technique himself, Yoda's age and experience notwithstanding. Yes, that is very impressive.

He was taught the technique by a Shaman, therefore he did learn the technique. Much knowledge of said techniques was lost in the former wars against Dark Jedi, even as far back as the Jedi Civil War.

No. I'm not.

Mace Windu in Attack of the Clones: "Perhaps we need to inform the Senate that the Jedi are losing their power to sense in the Force."

The Clone Wars' impact on the Force [B]far outstrips anything previous. This includes the Great Sith War. Palpatine and his Sith presence put it in a perpetual state of unbalance, thus requiring the birth of the Chosen One to correct this error. Numerous sources including Labyrinth of Evil and the RotS novelization have outright said that the Sith and the Jedi have "grown stronger" over the years in comparison to the old days -- but the dark side ascendancy is stifling their ability to sense the Force.

Ergo, it is ridiculous to even attempt to compare the two instances, Se7in. The instance of the Force during the Great Sith War is nothing in comparison.

The Jedi and Sith have "grown stronger" based on quotes? I've already stated my distaste in such measurements of power and skill. I believe that feats and accomplishments show much more, and judging from the average Jedi and both their terrible abilities at the Battle of Geonosis and their terrible performance against Dark Siders in saber-to-saber combat, I disagree that they're stronger at all.

Why is it ridiculous to compare the two? A war against armies of Sith has less stifling effects than those against a hidden enemy? Granted it is mentioned, that to me makes no sense.

Originally posted by Jack of Storms

He was taught the technique by a Shaman, therefore he did learn the technique. Much knowledge of said techniques was lost in the former wars against Dark Jedi, even as far back as the Jedi Civil War.

You've misunderstood me, so I'll clarify: he wasn't given instruction on this technique from another Jedi -- something that isn't common knowledge anymore. That the most powerful Jedi in the history of the Order (a Jedi over eight centuries old) was ignorant of the technique whereas Qui-Gon -- primarily due to his lack of blind faith in the Force and in the Jedi Order itself (he was realistic, not stupid) -- learned it. Yoda himself says that he still has much to learn, which is why he dedicates himself to becoming the late Qui-Gon's "apprentice".

The Jedi and Sith have "grown stronger" based on quotes?

You had to ask, lol, at a bad time. You'll have to wait before I can provide the quotes to you verbatim, as I don't have my copy of Labyrinth of Evil on hand. However, the omniscient narrator reflects that "two-hundred years before the rise of Darth Sidious, the dark side had been gaining strength" -- and "the Sith, too, were pleased that the Jedi had been allowed to grow so strong" (it goes on to mention, I think, that it would make their 'victory' so much more sweeter).

I've already stated my distaste in such measurements of power and skill.

That's true, but it doesn't make them any less valid, especially when the quotes are dictated by the omniscient narrator. George Lucas (the guy nothing -- not even feats and accomplishments can contradict) himself has referred to the prequel trilogy as "the prime of the Jedi" and "the golden age of the Jedi" -- and since the greatest war (up to that point) was coming into fruitation at that point, I highly doubt he was referring to 'peace' (and statements have been made that the Jedi 'dwindled down' to a 'mere 10,000', thus removing the possibility of referring to numbers).

I believe that feats and accomplishments show much more, and judging from the average Jedi and both their terrible abilities at the Battle of Geonosis and their terrible performance against Dark Siders in saber-to-saber combat, I disagree that they're stronger at all.

I'm sorry you feel that way, Se7in. But the fact of the matter remains. The Jedi were fewer in number and -- according to several sources (Yoda himself included: "blinded are we, if forsee the development of the clone army, we could not"😉 -- the Jedi were losing their ability to sense the future with the Force. It's not a stretch to assume that this would also include precognition even in battle. Nevermind the simple fact that their adversaries possessed technology and capabilities that vastly outstrip anything prior. The CIS or Republic would utterly curbstomp the **** out of any faction present in the Great Sith War, so why is it so difficult to believe that they simply weren't winning?

Meanwhile, what terrible performance against dark siders? You mean the dark siders who were certainly weren't being hindered by the rising dark side?

Why is it ridiculous to compare the two? A war against armies of Sith has less stifling effects than those against a hidden enemy? Granted it is mentioned, that to me makes no sense.

It's not so cut-and-dry, Se7in. Those 'armies of Sith' aren't coming close approaching the level of strength in the dark side possessed by Palpatine (who is a "black hole of the Force", "an event horizon", "darkness beyond darkness" according to the RotS novelization) and his apprentices. The fact that the Chosen One was destined to act during this time ought to make it clear that the Force was in a great tumult (specifically, it was unbalanced) whereas that was never the case during the Great Sith War.

"... And in the time of greatest
despair there shall come a savior,
and he shall be known as:
THE SON OF THE SUNS."
Journal of the Whills, 3:127

But the price of comfort was weakness. The institutions of government became decadent and Jedi numbers dwindled to a mere ten thousand. Now, the Force itself is unbalanced and great change seems imminent.

-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 12.

I can find more. But to compare the two is ridiculous, as I said. The PT Sith caused far, far more damage and destruction and unbalance in the Force than any Sith prior to them, ever.

PT era on a whole is the strongest age, tho there are some older Jedi/Sith who would be powerful in the PT age.

Even if we ignore quotes that you deem "ambiguous", Escape's theory is on the right track. Palpatine was destined to lead the sith out of hiding and was so strong in the force (having the entire dark side at his command), that the force created the Chosen One to combat this threat.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Even if we ignore quotes that you deem "ambiguous", Escape's theory is on the right track. Palpatine was destined to lead the sith out of hiding and was so strong in the force (having the entire dark side at his command), that the force created the Chosen One to combat this threat.

Bingo.

PT era on a whole is the strongest age, tho there are some older Jedi/Sith who would be powerful in the PT age.

Oh, yeah.

I'm not suggesting, stating, or implying that every PT Jedi is more powerful than every Jedi prior to him or her. I'm sure that Vodo or Kavar or Revan or whatnot would curbstomp the hell out of any random PT Jedi. Just as I'm sure Marka Ragnos would manhandle Darth Maul in a fight (Force-wise, at any rate). But the dark side of the Force was stronger with the modern Sith (PT, that is) than it was with the older ones.

Originally posted by Gideon
Oh, yeah.

I'm not suggesting, stating, or implying that every PT Jedi is more powerful than every Jedi prior to him or her. I'm sure that Vodo or Kavar or Revan or whatnot would curbstomp the hell out of any random PT Jedi. Just as I'm sure Marka Ragnos would manhandle Darth Maul in a fight (Force-wise, at any rate). But the dark side of the Force was stronger with the modern Sith (PT, that is) than it was with the older ones.