Originally posted by Darth Sexy
That's a very plausible theory. For me it's logical that because Sidious clearly seemed to be the Chosen One, or the Sith'ari, or whatever you want to call him (perfect Sith Being), the force countered that plague with a "chosen one", born of pure force energy.
Actually, that doesn't make any sense at all. Sidious can't be the Chosen One or the Sith'ari. And even if you typo'd, I doubt Anakin qualifies because the Sith'ari is supposed to lead the Sith and he never did that. It's really more likely that they were alluding the Bane when it was first mentioned.
It's like that whole Neo thing I suppose. After reading comics like Sithisis, I've never seen a sith that mixed sith alchemy+sith magic+sith power to the extent that Sidious did. I don't think there's really a question of him being the most powerful. The question should be, who comes after?
You mean you're basing your newfound respect for Sidious on a Visionaries comic?
You do realize that those same guys had Obi-Wan Kenobi fight a Darth Maul's cybernetic replacement in a clearly non-canon duel, right? And that Visionaries are meant to explore SW universe in what is considered a "free reign" type of experiment? You can't take any of them seriously as canon, unless they are given an exception status by the Holocron.
Originally posted by Se7in
I'm talking about ROTS Sidious, DE Sidious is a completely different character. Seriously, I didn't know people were talking about the same guy. Just as NJO Luke and DN Luke are completely different, I would never consider the two. DE Sidious has nothing to go on from the movies, therefore I know nothing about him and can't make an educated statement on him.
I think a lot of people can't differentiate between the amazingly uber DE Sidious and the rather lackluster RotS Sidious.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Actually, that doesn't make any sense at all. Sidious can't be the Chosen One or the Sith'ari. And even if you typo'd, I doubt Anakin qualifies because the Sith'ari is supposed to lead the Sith and he never did that. It's really more likely that they were alluding the Bane when it was first mentioned.[/qjote]
I think my point was that when Sidious was born, he basically had the dark side at his command with his incredible power. As a result, the force countered this with the birth of the chosen one. Again it's just a theory.You mean you're basing your newfound respect for Sidious on a Visionaries comic?
You do realize that those same guys had Obi-Wan Kenobi fight a Darth Maul's cybernetic replacement in a clearly non-canon duel, right? And that Visionaries are meant to explore SW universe in what is considered a "free reign" type of experiment? You can't take any of them seriously as canon, unless they are given an exception status by the Holocron. [/B]
I know the Darth Maul was n-canon, but I believe Sithisis is indeed considered canon. I could be wrong though but it would make sense.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I know the Darth Maul was n-canon, but I believe Sithisis is indeed considered canon. I could be wrong though but it would make sense.
Before you put it forth as gospel, you need to substantiate its canon standing. I bet you didn't even know it was Visionaries until I brought it up, to be quite frank. Or if you did, you didn't stop to consider the implications of that title.
Haha. I can.
Se7in, you are among the rare minority. I think I'll stop objecting to the nonsense when people realize that DE Sidious != RotS Sidious.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
Before you put it forth as gospel, you need to substantiate its canon standing. I bet you didn't even know it was Visionaries until I brought it up, to be quite frank. Or if you did, you didn't stop to consider the implications of that title.Se7in, you are among the rare minority. I think I'll stop objecting to the nonsense when people realize that DE Sidious != RotS Sidious.
I know it's visionaries, because I've read all of those stories at once.. Now do I know what that means in terms of cnaon policy? I haven't the foggiest notion..
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I know it's visionaries, because I've read all of those stories at once.. Now do I know what that means in terms of cnaon policy? I haven't the foggiest notion..
I thought they were, which is why I created the "Is Grievous Force Sensitive" thread, which highlights Sifo-Dyas blood transfusion into Grievous and Dooku giving Grievous Dyas's lightsaber, however numerous others have contested the canonity of said content, so I am unsure as well.
Originally posted by Janus Marius
I'm not sure how a blood transfusion would even allow Force sensitivity, even if you took some kind of Star Trek liberties with it.
Eh, I left all of the details about why I thought so in the other thread, I just considered since there really was nothing mystical about the Force, considering it can be artificially infused in living beings in numerous ways including Artusian crystals, cloning, and the Valley of the Jedi, I figured such a medical procedure could enable Grievous with latent force abilities.
However Hord disproved such a theory, realizing that Grievous had such little biological entity left, that even with a blood transfusion from the most powerful of Jedi, he still wouldn't have enough to use the Force.
Originally posted by Shin_Nikkolas
The Force is just microscopic bacteria in your bloodstream.Taking all of someone else's blood into you, if this person has a lot of these things, should give you the Force.
Actually, midi-chlorians are based on mitichondria, which is less of a free-floating bacteria and more of a symbiotic organism in the genes. Several points in EU cite genetic manipulation as being a tentative way to enhance or add midi-chlorians to a sentient, but blood transfusion simply wouldn't work. If simply having the blood made you a Force user, gangsters everywhere would be knocking off padawans and draining them dry.
I love debating you Gideon, you don't throw around insults. 🙂
I'm just as guilty of throwing around insults and bashing as anyone else; the difference is that I try to avoid doing it now because it is absolutely unnecessary, and -- from my perspective -- it's a sign of weakness (frustration, anger, fear... and we all know where that goes... 😛).
No, I understood, I just believe that saying because Yoda didn't know the technique and Qui-Gon did makes him great in any way is a stretch. Yoda had no way to know of it, and Qui-Gon learned it from a third-party Yoda never happened to meet or come upon, which makes the comparison null in my point of view.
And I fail to see how. Were it some pathetic technique that had no real significance, I would subscribe to the same logic that you have. But, in this case, Qui-Gon -- again, because he does not blindly follow the ideals of the Jedi Order like a sheep being led to the slaughter -- learned to master a technique of ground-shattering significance that Yoda -- the most powerful Jedi Master in history, an eight hundred year old sage -- did not know. That strikes me as very impressive. But, as always, I'm willing to understand that your interpretation isn't the same as mine.
Others have brought up the fact that authors vary in how and why stories are told. Though Lucas can give his stamp of approval for every one of these quotes, I don't think it means we should go around claiming that because a statement using absolute adjectives are used describing people, as the case of Yoda and Anoon Bondara, we should immediately assume they are massively powerful or skilled, despite what their actions prove.
Se7in, this particular section of your rebuttal doesn't measure up to your regular submissions. You're attempting to debate the issue based on author variations? I can understand specific issues -- I myself have a major issue with the constant fluctuations regarding Luke Skywalker. One minute: he's SuperJedi, the all powerful Light Sider, and the next minute, he's having problems with a single droideka. Ultimately, authors do at times contradict other authors and other feats of power. But the quotes provided from Labyrinth of Evil comport themselves with the Complete Visual Dictionary and the Ultimate Visual Guide and the RotS novelization itself. Meaning that, if you argue this route, you will be so hard-pressed to actually make a convincing argument that this discussion could go on indefinately.
Even if it isn't referring to numbers, it still doesn't have to refer to skill and power of the Jedi, since you've already tried proving the point that the Jedi were arguably at their weakest due to this "shroud" of the Sith.
Pardon? I didn't say that at all. I said that the Jedi were losing their ability to sense into the future, which would naturally include all types of precognition available to them -- not that they were somehow being stifled entirely or were somehow weaker for it. They were unable to sense the presence of the last Dark Lord of the Sith amongst them; the most powerful of the Jedi at the time had regular meetings with him, they sat face-to-face, and they didn't suspect him for a moment. They could not see the development of the clone army, even when one of their own was responsible. They could not see the true force behind Nute Gunray, the Confederacy of Independant Systems, and even Count Dooku. Yoda himself laments in Labyrinth of Evil that Darth Sidious was "so powerful" that he could instruct his apprentice to expose him, and still remain hidden.
The only time the Jedi came close to discovering Darth Sidious's identity was when Nute Gunray abandoned his mechno-chair to Republic forces as he escaped Cato Nemoidia. It allowed Republic analysts to capture an image of Sidious and a transmission from Gunray addressing the Dark Lord as "Lord Sidious". This allowed Yoda and the others to come close, and Yoda realized that the Dark Lord was on Coruscant the whole time and they still could not identify him.
It's not that the Jedi were weak. It's that the 'shroud of the Dark Side' was blinding them.
So which is it? "Golden age" could refer to perhaps their influence in galactic affairs or even their popularity among the Republic citizens. There's no way to tell.
Influence in galactic affairs? Most citizens and several Jedi -- Count Dooku and Qui-Gon amongst them -- believed that the Jedi were slaves to the corrupted Republic. Several sources also cite that the Jedi were secretly hated by its citizens (they viewed the war to be a result of Jedi meddling; the Jedi Order spearheading an army of clones, meanwhile, a former prominent Jedi was helming the rebellious movement) -- which is why Palpatine so easily deceived the Senate into believing that the Order was responsible for the entire war. Most of the population already, secretly, believed it in the first place.
So that nails "influence" and "popularity" shut.
You also bring up the greatest war of all time. This doesn't prove the Jedi's skill at all, considering the Republic had the greatest army the galaxy had ever seen up to that point, with the Clones being better than any average soldier and any droid, the Jedi weren't exactly fighting this war alone.
I actually found this out last night (there's a debate about the number on SD.net) -- but did you know that it is canon that the number of Clonetroopers during the Clone Wars was only between 1.2 million and 3.2 million (that's bullshit since the Red Army during World War II had in excess of 9 million soldier casualties -- before, even, they conquered Berlin)? The Republic's ground forces were outnumbered. And you make it seem as if the Jedi Order were tipping the scales; yeah, they helped, but you forget that this war was regulated and controlled. The Complete Visual Dictionary states that Darth Sidious maintained a sort of 'balance' for most of the war, allowing neither faction to gain too many victories or too many advantages. It's not as if he let loose the floodgates and allowed the Jedi free reign, otherwise, yes, they probably would have beat down the CIS easier than what was shown -- though the droids would be a pain in the ass for the Clones. Remember: the goal behind the Clone Wars was twofold: to give Sidious grounds to create his Empire and to thin the ranks of his only threat: the Jedi. Even prior to the Clone Wars, he used every opportunity he had to kill as many Jedi as he could. Outbound Flight is but one.
This is all underlined, again, by the simple fact that the Jedi's farseeing and precognition was horrendously stifled.
So a combined army of Sith don't possess the strength of Dark Side influence Palpatine had?
That's the general idea, yes.
More quotes that mean nothing, given what we see from his abilities in the movies.
Incorrect; these quotes are, unfortunately, more than what you've got, Se7in. Dismissing them as "nothing" without proving it -- and then basing it off of "shown abilities" -- is inabsolute and it's a very fragile counterargument.
In fact, let's take it one step farther: Anakin Skywalker. Anakin Skywalker is the Chosen One. This is a fact. Anakin Skywalker has the potential to be more powerful than Yoda or Sidious. This is a fact. Anakin Skywalker -- as stated by Yoda in Dark Rendezvous and Mace Windu in Shatterpoint -- is stronger in the Force than any Jedi (and Sidious himself).
...Yet, from what we see in the movies, does he generate or demonstrate such strength? Nope. Hell, if not for the previous statements, one would never get the idea that he could even come close to rivalling Yoda in the Force.
Are you going to argue, then, that Anakin is obviously not stronger in the Force than Yoda, since he doesn't demonstrate it? I don't think so.
You're confusing "strength in the Force/Dark Side" with "combat abilities". They are not interchangeable. They are not the same.
I'll admit, Palpatine is an INCREDIBLY strong Sith Lord, but having more influence than an army of Sith? I beg to differ.
Again, you're confusing "strength in the Force (in this case, the dark side)" with "combat abilities". There. Is. A. Difference. Palpatine would manhandle any KOTOR-era Sith (with the possible exception of Nihilus) in a duel; and he is most certainly stronger than any of them in the Force (including Nihilus).
Count Dooku -- looking at Sidious "with the eyes of the Force" (Force sense) -- views Sidious as "darkness beyond darkness", "an event horizon", "a black hole of the Force". Nevermind the simple fact that he was so powerful in the Force that it was destroying his body. You don't get stronger in the dark side, so corrupted, than that.
Also, if the prophecy proves correct, Anakin was not "forced" to act until seeing the threatening of his own son's life and after the Jedi Order had been destroyed. Having less than a hundred Jedi and having a "mere" 10,000 is a big difference in when he chose to act, considering Anakin knew that Luke was literally the last of the Jedi, since he had been hunting Obi-Wan and Yoda for years and that their death had finally come. This shows even further that the purge was not enough for the Chosen One to act, therefore perhaps Palpatine's influence wasn't as great as previously thought.
Anakin always had a choice. The second he discovered Palpatine's identity, he could have killed him. He didn't. He did the 'mature thing' and informed the Council.
The second that Mace Windu had Palpatine, cornered and disarmed, he had a plethora of choices: he could allow Mace to bring him to trial, allow Mace to kill him, or do it himself. The difference was, he had been manipulated at that point, blinded by his love for a woman that transcended his loyalty to the Order or to the galaxy as a whole.
The third and final opportunity presented itself then. The role was reversed, however. Anakin's love for Luke transcended Vader's love/loyalty to power and to Palpatine. He redeemed himself and killed his master.
Palpatine's 'influence' on both Anakin and on the Force is inarguably supremely great. And that was why the Chosen One acted then, the Force correcting itself. It didn't happen with Revan. It didn't happen with Ragnos. It happened with Palpatine, and that's concrete.
I have something to say, tho Sidious was indeed a threat to the galaxy, and needed to be stopped, which as Gideon put is the reason the Chosen One was made, to me, I think Nihilus would qualify as a bigger threat than even Palpatine. I am in no way saying he is stronger, only the difference in their goals. Sidious desired to rule the galaxy unopposed with an iron(or rather nasty and wrinkly lol) fist, and life was certainly hell, but Nihilus seeked to do much more than that, if Nihilus was left alive, there would be no galaxy. Nihilus cared only about feeding his hunger, he would have turned on the Sith after the Jedi, and then would have devoured the galaxy when they were gone. To me that seems much worse than being ruled under an Emperor.
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
I have something to say, tho Sidious was indeed a threat to the galaxy, and needed to be stopped, which as Gideon put is the reason the Chosen One was made, to me, I think Nihilus would qualify as a bigger threat than even Palpatine. I am in no way saying he is stronger, only the difference in their goals. Sidious desired to rule the galaxy unopposed with an iron(or rather nasty and wrinkly lol) fist, and life was certainly hell, but Nihilus seeked to do much more than that, if Nihilus was left alive, there would be no galaxy. Nihilus cared only about feeding his hunger, he would have turned on the Sith after the Jedi, and then would have devoured the galaxy when they were gone. To me that seems much worse than being ruled under an Emperor.
In a sense, you're very much correct. But the problem is that you seem to be unaware of certain details about Emperor Palpatine's 'agenda', so to speak, and you seem to be confusing other, minor issues, so I will do my best to clarify.
It is not my justification for Palpatine's death bringing balance to the Force that he was "a threat to the galaxy". You misunderstand; his presence was causing an unprecedented disturbance in the Force itself -- which extends well beyond the galaxy. So, yes, in that sense, you're correct. Emperor Palpatine's tyranny, though vicious and malevolent, was not as brutal as Darth Nihilus's glutton-based scheme to remove all Force-wielding life from the galaxy. For, as you say, Palpatine seemed to ultimately just want to lord over his galaxy.
But here is what most people are not aware of: ruling the galaxy was the Sith Order's ultimate plan; it wasn't Palpatine's. Ultimately, as detailed in the Dark Empire sourcebook, Palpatine -- after his death at Endor -- became quite mentally unstable. If it could be said that he had any control over his raw power prior to his death, it is most certain that he was losing control over it then. Consider Palpatine a more intelligent, more patient, and a more controlled version of Darth Nihilus. The Dark Empire states the following:
“[The Galactic Emperor] had succeeded where all others failed in taming the Dark Side. He would journey across the universe, spreading the shadow of his rule, blotting out the stars themselves, and taking his Dark Rule to other helpless galaxies.”
...Publius and several others have made convincing arguments that Palpatine toyed with the above idea during his reign as Galactic Emperor. However, it was his first death at the hands of Anakin Skywalker that inspired him to accelerate his mad ambitions. So, as you can see, ultimately Palpatine was not only a greater threat to the Force -- but he was a very threat to the universe itself, not isolated to just one galaxy. In that regard, he was indeed worse than Nihilus.
Fortunately, his spirit was destroyed before he could carry this out. As it were, I'm not here to debate Sidious. As much as I enjoy the character, Janus is right in that it seems everywhere I go, I turn it into a Sidious-based discussion.
Let's not have that here. If you'd like to discuss it further, a new thread or PM will do.