Originally posted by Borbarad
Oh my. One must love this argument. Really. Dooku was head and shoulders above Anakin in force abilities. Correct. Hence he could have killed Anakin had he ever intended to do so which, as we know, wasn't the case. It would have been laughable easy for him to kill Anakin after the scene depicted in Janus' .gif-file, instead of bringing down that metal structure on the already knocked out Kenobi.
And Sidious and Mace ? You might have realized already that Mace was head and shoulders above Sidious when it came to lightsaber combat and had unique abilities (Shatterpoint, Vaapad mindset) that gave him additional advantages over the Sith Lord. I don't see how any of that applies on Anakin when comparing him to Exar Kun in the lightsaber department.
Dooku was defeated by an immensly unconventional attack of Anakin who utilized his physical superiority over the Sith Lord. Kun is far stronger than Dooku and also appears to be physically tougher in comparison to Anakin.
Which is total bullshit.
We all know that force abilities do play a nice role in lightsaber combat. You acknowledge that Kun is far superior to Anakin in that department. So let's see. Anakin would be confronted with a guy that is pretty impressive when it comes to raw physical power. Yet that guy, due to superior force mastery, is also capable of boosting his strength, his reflexes, his agility, his dexterity and his precognition more than Anakin could do and aside of that seems to be pretty skilled when it comes down to sheer swordsplay. How the hell is Anakin going to win a lightsaber duel against him ? He simply has no advantage in comparison to Exar Kun.
Where did the comics state that Vodo was an "average Jedi" ? Did you ever read "The Freedom Nadd Uprising" ? No ? Because obviously your "average" Jedi Vodo is responsible for training students in lightsaber combat as he does so on Ossus. He's even training the apprentices of other Masters (such as Thon) in that department. Can you please tell me why other masters would ship their scholars to Ossus so that they can receive their lightsaber training from an "average Jedi" ?
Obviously Vodo was pretty skilled in the combat department. Even more skilled than any other Jedi Master in that time because otherwise it wouldn't make sense for them to make their apprentices learn the art of the lightsaber from Vodo instead of training them theirselves.
And if you'd take a look into the DLotS comics you would also see that they wanted to wait for Vodo before starting their conclave on Deneba because they obviously wanted to have Vodo's oppinion on the Krath threat.
Conclusion: Vodo seems to be the TOTJ eras main lightsaber instructor (or "Battlemaster"😉 meaning that he's definetely one of the best if not the best Jedi when it comes down to lightsaber combat in his own era. Which obviously says a lot about Kun's skill considering Vodo notes that Kun is "the best student he has ever trained" and the fact that Kun pretty much tooled him in their confrontation in the Senate.
He taught Anakin every lightsaber move. Oh yes. That's why they're using totally different lightsaber forms which encorporate opposite philosophies. And he knew him inside out ? Nice. I guess Kun would have extensive knowledge about Anakin's lightsaber skill because he seems to be using it himself in certain situations in the comics. On the other hand Anakin would be confronted with a weapon he's not familiar with, a style he's not familiar with and all of that being used by a guy who's more powerful in any department than he is. Once more: How is Anakin going to win that ?
Says who ? Lightsnake ? Didn't know that Lightsnake words are canon. He moved from level 8 to 9 ? I also didn't know that Nick Gillards words are canon.
Yeah. Let's do some reality check. He totally tools Odan with a single force attack. He smites Freedon Nadd's spirit with an amulet blasts and he happily destroys Aleema Keto with a Sith magic attack. Then he goes on and tosses Sylvar around like a ragdoll with apparent ease. If you want to take his action in the JA trilogy into consideration he also prefers acting threw using force abilities even when having the means (control Kyp) to start some physical attacks.
So I wonder why you try to debate here, being very well aware of the fact that you don't have any point whatever you want to argue ? [/B]
As opposed to "Omg Kun tooled Vodo, who COULD have been the best of his era, but there was nobody outside of Kun and Ulic who showed ANYTHING resembling power so we're back at square 1"? Anakin tooling Dooku in their saber fight speaks more about his abilities than Kun tooling a master with a stick.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I'm confused. Kun's best saber feat is tooling Vodo (who isn't exactly a powerhouse), and stalemating Ulic, while Anakin destroys that super commando guy, Ventress, and tools Dooku, who is easily one of the greatest force users/saber combatants in the history of Star Wars. Not to mention this is "in teh z0ne" ANakin, and Kun loses stamina, I don't see how on earth Kun would win this.On the other hand, if it's a force fight, Anakin=pwned
right
Originally posted by Janus MariusYou're missing something entirely; the winner is not always the better fighter. Obi-Wan as of TPM was far inferior to Maul. Obi-Wan was technically inferior to Anakin in RotS. Yoda was far from inferior to Sidious yet he lost. Anakin's never shown to be the "only living master" of a lightsaber form made specifically for lightsaber dueling. Anakin's never shown Force prowess above or even on par with Dooku. And if you watch the saber match, it's pretty much even until Anakin leans in and does his wondermove. Nothing else he did during that match made him a superior duellist. He simply did a smart move and won. Lucky him. If Dooku had choked his ass or fried him and hadn't been so busy incapacitating Obi-Wan, he'd be dead.
When Anakin used the darkside it was pretty clear to everybody who was the better duelist. Count Dooku maybe could have beat him when he was fighting w/ Kenobi b/c when he does that, they fight together and Anakin has to hold back, but when he uses everything he had, and the darkside he is better than Dooku clearly, and Nic Gillard has said as much. Count Dooku thinks to himself after Anakin used the darkside how strong he is, and it took everything he had to just block his swings, he certainly could not got off some force move on him then. But you think Luminara,Maul,Depa,Anoon are all better than him 😐 SO its no suprise you think this.
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Wait, so you're NOW saying that Dooku wasn't trying? Is that why he was fighting for his life? Or is the ROTS Novelization somehow contradictory to the movies on this part? I KNOW you read it.
Oh. You know that I read it ? Nice.
"Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could."
Urm. Sounds pretty much as if Dooku gets his ass kicked there. Definetly. What novel did you read ? Dooku in the novel received the command from Sidious to let Anakin live and even after Anakin did cut his hands off, he still thinks that everything is happening according to Sidious' plan. I wonder where he should have tried to killed Anakin there. And once more: After knocking out Kenobi he had plenty of time to kill Anakin but instead decided to drop that metal construction on the unconcious Jedi Master.
Excuse me? Mace was head and shoulders above Sidious? How about the fact that after 13 years without practicing combat, Sidious and Mace were COMPLETE EQUALS in saber combat. The only thing that TIPPED that fight was Mace's shatterpoint abilities.
What movie did you actually see ? Revenge of the Sith ? No. Can't be the case because Mace constantly forces Sidious backwards until disarming him in the movie version. Sidious is very clearly not Mace's equal in lightsaber combat even if only for the case that Mace has his Vaapad and his Shatterpoint ability. This, by the way, proofs that Janus was completely right with his assertion that you can't seperate lightsaber combat from the force abilities.
Why? Because Kun picked up a senator with 1 hand? I assume you're talking about force augmented strength. Kun maybe far stronger than Dooku but where is the proof that he's far stronger than Anakin? Anakin and Luke both had incredible strength when they were swinging their lightsaber wildly. Hell Luke took robotic Vader out of commission with his furious blows. I'll get a book or one of the comics which shows Anakin's strength because I'm not positive exactly what it is.
Boring.
I'm talking about the fact that Kun appears to be a muscle-packed killing machine if you go by the comics and you've already acknowledge that his force mastery, therefore his ability to boost his strength, is superior to that of Anakin. And please. Kun forced Sylvar on her knees by pushing her head down with one hand (and Sylvar wasn't exactly weak either) and lifted the Chancellor up with considerable ease, pressing his finger through the skull bones of the alien and lifting it up while the weight was - logically - just hold with his fingers - then he moves his arm up with the Chancellor hanging on it like a puppet and finally drops him on the ground.
So by your logic, Ulic Qel Droma>>>>>>>Anakin. Since these force abilities play a nice role and Ulic stalemated Kun, he MUST somehow be more superior to Dooku and Anakin. Kun's force mastery is the only thing that's superior here. I don't know where you get the idea that his precognition and dexterity are superior to ANakin. After all, Anakin was able to parry all of Dooku's blows and wtfpwn him, while Dooku was superior to Anakin in the force.
And there comes the allmighty strawman again.
First: Did I state here that Ulic >>>>>>>>>>>> Anakin ? Nope. So drop it.
Second: Kun in his final shape is by far more powerful than during the time of his first duel with Ulic. And notice how he already was the best swordsmen the Order's battlemaster has trained up to that point before that clash with Ulic.
Third: Wow. Kun's only advantage is his force mastery ? You should probably have a look at the comics, specifically at the scenes where Kun fight. You might want to look at his movements. The guy is clearly using multiple forms including form V while he has a unique form and a unique weapon. So his "advantages" in comparison to Anakin would be:
- he knows Anakin's style
- he uses a unique form Anakin doesn't know
- he uses a unique weapon Anakin doesn't know
- he has superior force mastery in comparison to Anakin
- he seems to possess the greaty physical strength
And now...what would be Anakin's advantage over Kun which logically must be existant in your mind because otherwise you can't suggest that Anakin would be able to defeat him ?
Where is the proof that VOdo is a powerhouse? You're asking everyone to go on a limb and somehow logically deduce that Vodo was a powerhouse because he trained students and because he could turn his stick into a combat tool. Except there's no PROOF that Vodo did anything that makes him a powerhouse. Hell his own padawan kicked his ass, and I'm sure Ulic would have done the same, since he was on par with Kun at the time. Can you definitively tell us that the quality of lightsaber combat of this era was high?
You might want to read again what I've written and notice that nothing you've typed down has any relation to it. And lmao. You did notice that they had a major conflict within the Jedi Order (the Third Shism) going on just a few centuries before that time which at least the Jedi Masters still alive at the beginning of TOTJ did survive ? Aside of the fact that the forms didn't change overtime so to question the "quality" of lightsaber combat is pretty much laughable.
Sorry Nai but I don't see any other Jedi master even remotely adept at lightsaber combat. The Jedi Masters of that time spent more time sitting there and meditating on the force than doing any actual fighting. This doesn't include Revan's time.
Sure. Jedi Masters with several centuries of experience that did also witness one of the shisms in the Jedi Order would be total suckers in combat. Notice how I was talking about combat skill in general. Thon obviously was skilled enough to take out a Sith witch that was capable to wipe an entire planet of life with a single force move and if you have a look at the story of Nomi Sunrider he doesn't seems to be incompetent either. And notice that Vodo himself doesn't have to be a powerhouse. You are pretty much saying that - considering Vodo must have trained basically anybody in lightsaber combat, since the masters shipped their students to him - the entire Jedi Order of that time must suck because they all are inferior to Kun.
Jesus christ Nai, for some of you who preach logic, you really ask people to go out on a limb here. WHAT in ANYTHING that you've said, makes Vodo powerful? After reading this, you've convinced me that he's KNOWLEDGABLE. So what?
Yes. Knowledgeable in the lightsaber combat department apparently more then any other master in his time, among them people who battled ancient Sith (Odan, Thon), freaked out droids (Arca) and Dark Jedi (all people in the TOTJ comics older than 200 years) which is the entire f*cking point here, you idiot.
Except you can't seem to quantify the level of saber combat of this era. We all saw how incredible the Jedi of the GAOTS were.
Rofl. Do you actually realize what bullshit you're producing here ? If you want to start like that I could just say that the PT era Jedi are actually gunned down when they're facing more than two opponents and question the entire level of saber combat in that era. Would that make sense to you ? No ? And the GAOTS Jedi ? You mean those who take on a freaking Sith army with four people who all survive the confrontation with one of them fighting with a freaking stick ? Holy shit. They must really suck, dude !
Yea, they were using totally different lightsaber forms. I guess it didn't occur to you that Obiwan could POSSIBLY know more than one form. I WILL give you the fact that Anakin isn't experienced enough to NOT let an unknown style bother him.
I guess it didn't occur to you that Obi-Wan canonically knew at least two forms as he was practicing form IV like his master before switching to Soresu after TPM. But he didn't practice form V meaning he can't have taught it to Anakin.
Yet this would imply that he became more powerful than Dooku once he touched the dark side. Who was level 9? Anakin, Mace, Yoda, and Sidious.
And who was level 8 ? Obi-Wan Kenobi. Who walked away on Mustafar with all limbs and all his skin ? Oh...yeah. If you want to use Gillards dumbass level system you should also use Gillards other words on the matter. He said that the only advantage Anakin had over Obi-Wan was that the Dark Side made him more aggressive in combat. Wow.
Wonderful, he tooled a thousand year old Jedi who MIGHT have used ONE technique on average ancient sith. He puts his hand through Freedon Nadd's Spirit. Wow Nai. He defeated Aleema, who was what, average? If I were you and I was arguing KUn's superiority, I wouldn't throw any of that bullshit you just put, except for what he did in JA. And you don't have to prove that Kun is the superior force user Nai, this is obvious.
Nice how you completely didn't get the point. You wanted to establish the idea that Kun's preferred modus operandi is to use his lightsaber against force users as a fact. In fact he more often slaps people around with his force powers than engaging them in lightsaber combat.
Lightsaber: Vodo, Ulic, Odd
Force: Sylvar, Aleema, Odan, Nadd
As opposed to "Omg Kun tooled Vodo, who COULD have been the best of his era, but there was nobody outside of Kun and Ulic who showed ANYTHING resembling power so we're back at square 1"? Anakin tooling Dooku in their saber fight speaks more about his abilities than Kun tooling a master with a stick.
Yo. You must have completely missed Nomi Sunrider in the comics somehow. She picks up a lightsaber for the first time and handles it better than her husband who was a trained Jedi. She cuts her way to a gang of thugs and later through an entire army of Ommin's servants pretty easily despite - at the later incidence - hindered by dark side battle meditation. Yet, according to Vodo, Kun is still definetly better with a lightsaber then her, even at a point in time when he was far away from his actual peak in that department.
And how does Anakin's defeat of Dooku speak more about his abilities then Kun's displays of lightsaber skill ? Once more. Anakin didn't tool Dooku. He didn't even outduel him in the classical meaning of the word. He did just brutally overpower the Sith Lord through superior strength. Kun did toy with a 600 year old Jedi Master who was listed as experienced combatant by the narrator and whom we see training basically all kind of people in the art of lightsaber combat - even the students of other masters and whos death was descriped at a strike at the heart of the Jedi Order.
The constant level of Anakin's saber abilities (his bladework and so on), even if you want to follow Gillard's words, is just slightly above that of Obi-Wan Kenobi. Do you want to tell me that somebody who was noted as the most powerful duellist of his era, somebody undefeated in direct confrontation, somebody who invented his own weapon design and his own lightsaber style is below that level ? Because this is exactly what you're saying here.
And to trump that: You even assume that Anakin could beat Kun while acknowledging that Kun is by far superior when it comes to force mastery.
Would Kun saberrape Anakin ? I don't think it would be that easy. Would he comfortably defeat Skywalker ? I don't know. Would he at least defeat him in most cases even if you turn the entire fight into a pure saber duel ? Definetely yes. So what do you want to argue: That Anakin might pull some stunning movement out of his ass to win one out of 10 lightsaber duels with Kun (something that would most likely not happen anyway). That would be really funny, especially since you accused Janus to use the exception rather than the rule - which is exactly what you do here.
Reference link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGVBGFbB6eI
What movie did you actually see ? Revenge of the Sith ? No.
I personally don't know whether Darth Sexy watched the movie, but I did, Nai. In fact, I just went back and watched the duel again on Youtube before I decided to comment. But he is right.
Can't be the case because Mace constantly forces Sidious backwards until disarming him in the movie version.
'Constantly forces him back'? If you will please click on the reference link that documents the fight scene, you'll note that between 0:40 and 0:42, Darth Sidious manages to defeat and kill Masters Tinn and Kolar. Between 0:42 and 0:47, Darth Sidious duels Mace Windu and Kit Fisto simultaneously, but, despite the Vaapad master's assistance, the Sith Lord overpowers and destroys his companion.
From 0:48 to 1:03 -- the infamous scene where Sidious has Windu at saberpoint -- it is actually the Sith Lord, not Mace, who directs the course of the duel. Windu, in fact, runs away from Palpatine at 0:49.
Sidious is very clearly not Mace's equal in lightsaber combat even if only for the case that Mace has his Vaapad and his Shatterpoint ability.
I urge you to go back and read Darth Sexy's message again. He is not -- nor am I -- disputing that Windu is not superior to Palpatine when you get right down to it in lightsaber combat, nor is he implying that the duel was anything but legitimate. The both of us have been combating that theory for a long time, and we both conclude Windu won because he was better. The point Darth Sexy was trying to make is that Windu is not "head-and-shoulders" above Palpatine; since he was forced back by the Sith Lord and they fought to a standstill until Windu emerged himself in Vaapad, thus negating Palpatine's superior speed and overwhelming skill (hence why he was able to kill Windu's colleagues despite Mace's own intervention) and the shatterpoint charism is what allowed him to defeat the Sith Lord.
A legitimate duel, but would Mace own him in a pure lightsaber match? Doubtful. If you think otherwise, I look forward to your response.
This, by the way, proofs that Janus was completely right with his assertion that you can't seperate lightsaber combat from the force abilities.
He can do that quite fine, actually. The only thing this proves is that Darth Sexy is trying to be objective; he is making a point that helps the image of a character he strongly dislikes while not disputing the fact that he lost and the reasons why he lost. Certain parties could learn from that.
Originally posted by Gideon
Reference link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGVBGFbB6eII personally don't know whether Darth Sexy watched the movie, but I did, Nai. In fact, I just went back and watched the duel again on Youtube before I decided to comment. But he is right.
He's right with what ?
'Constantly forces him back'? If you will please click on the reference link that documents the fight scene, you'll note that between 0:40 and 0:42, Darth Sidious manages to defeat and kill Masters Tinn and Kolar. Between 0:42 and 0:47, Darth Sidious duels Mace Windu and Kit Fisto simultaneously, but, despite the Vaapad master's assistance, the Sith Lord overpowers and destroys his companion.From 0:48 to 1:03 -- the infamous scene where Sidious has Windu at saberpoint -- it is actually the Sith Lord, not Mace, who directs the course of the duel. Windu, in fact, runs away from Palpatine at 0:49.
And what happens after that ?
Notice that your reference video is cut in between.
- Mace breaks the saberlock with Sidious
- he then (beginning of the second cut in the video @ 1:10) waits for Sidious to get his saber back up in front of him before striking again
- this is followed by a series of strikes where we see Windu forcing Sidious back through the office even using fancy Ataru-style movements to avoid Windu
- at 1:28 when Sidious goes down on his knees, Mace could have easily killed him by moving his blade backwards. Yet he somehow decided again not to do this.
- then Mace finally disarms Sidious.
Who is the superior fighter here ? Holy shit. I know that Mace was first avoiding Sidious but maybe because Sidious did just cut down three of Mace's friend and not because Sidious was actually outfighting him in the melee department. To state that, going by the movie, would be a joke at best. Sorry.
I urge you to go back and read Darth Sexy's message again. He is not -- nor am I -- disputing that Windu is not superior to Palpatine when you get right down to it in lightsaber combat, nor is he implying that the duel was anything but legitimate. The both of us have been combating that theory for a long time, and we both conclude Windu won because he was better. The point Darth Sexy was trying to make is that Windu is not "head-and-shoulders" above Palpatine; since he was forced back by the Sith Lord and they fought to a standstill until Windu emerged himself in Vaapad, thus negating Palpatine's superior speed and overwhelming skill (hence why he was able to kill Windu's colleagues despite Mace's own intervention) and the shatterpoint charism is what allowed him to defeat the Sith Lord.
It's nice what you can see in that movie, Escape. Where did Mace intervene, eh ? Two Jedi are dead on the ground before Mace even moves into the duel and Kit Fisto is cut down by the Sith Lord so far away from Mace that Mace couldn't have done anything there. So WTF ? What should Mace have done there to prevent Sidious from doing that ? He couldn't do anything against that.
And sorry. Windu keeps kicking Sidious ass from the saberlock sequence on and basically let's the Sith Lord live twice when he could have ended the duel rather easily. In the novel interpretation Mace is starting to use his Shatterpoint ability (and the complete Vaapad mind set) after shattering the window. That would mean he was already about to defeat Sidious without using Vaapad to the full extend and without using the Shatterpoint abilty.
And if you concluded that Mace is the better fighter. WTF: I said Sidious is not Mace's equal in lightsaber combat which would be the very same conclusion. So thanks for wasting your time anyway.
A legitimate duel, but would Mace own him in a pure lightsaber match? Doubtful. If you think otherwise, I look forward to your response.
Of course he would. Based on the movie interpretation Sidious is quite worse in melee combat in comparison to Mace if you follow the movement patterns. And there is nothing as a "pure lightsaber match" in the SW universe. Excluding force powers Mace would kick Sidious ass across the place because his physical strength and normal speed do by far exceed that of Sidious.
He can do that quite fine, actually. The only thing this proves is that Darth Sexy is trying to be objective; he is making a point that helps the image of a character he strongly dislikes while not disputing the fact that he lost and the reasons why he lost. Certain parties could learn from that.
Nope, Escape. Lightsaber combat and force abilities can't be seperated because lightsaber combat depends on force abilities (such as force enchancement of certain natural abilities). Without that, lightsaber combat is hardly possible. So the very attempt to seperate them violates the very basic mechanics of the SW universe. Hence it's illogical to do so.
And he's not trying to be objective which should actually have occured to you unless you're blind nowadays.
He's right with what?
He's right that Mace Windu is not "head and shoulders" above Darth Sidious in lightsaber combat.
And what happens after that ?
What happens after that? Mace begins to duel the Sith Lord on equal terms, and -- delving into Vaapad -- starts to overpower him. No one has disputed this, Nai.
Notice that your reference video is cut in between.
I'm aware. There are multiple videos; I just chose the first one I saw.
- Mace breaks the saberlock with Sidious
I'm aware, Nai. No one disputes that Mace is stronger than Sidious; hell, isn't it your entire claim that Anakin overcame Dooku with a cheap physical attack? I don't work with double standards, Nai, so don't color me impressed.
- he then (beginning of the second cut in the video @ 1:10) waits for Sidious to get his saber back up in front of him before striking again
I do hope that you're not insinuating Mace Windu allowed Darth Sidious to reevaluate his stance, thereby risking his own life and potentially allowing this mass-murderer and puppetmaster to add another kill to the list.
- this is followed by a series of strikes where we see Windu forcing Sidious back through the office even using fancy Ataru-style movements to avoid Windu
'Using fancy Ataru-style movements' to avoid being attacked doesn't seem any worse than running away from your opponent.
- at 1:28 when Sidious goes down on his knees, Mace could have easily killed him by moving his blade backwards. Yet he somehow decided again not to do this.
I do hope that you're not insinuating Mace Windu allowed Darth Sidious to reevaluate his stance, thereby risking his own life and potentially allowing this mass-murderer and puppetmaster to add another kill to the list.
- then Mace finally disarms Sidious.
...No one is disputing that Mace Windu legitimately overpowered Darth Sidious and that, during the course of the duel, bested him through superior skill with a lightsaber. I made that perfectly clear, several times, in the above post and several times during this one. I hope I won't have to do it again.
Who is the superior fighter here ?
You shatter my hopes. Mace Windu, Nai. Windu is the superior fighter. Must I reiterate myself at every juncture?
Holy shit. I know that Mace was first avoiding Sidious but maybe because Sidious did just cut down three of Mace's friend and not because Sidious was actually outfighting him in the melee department. To state that, going by the movie, would be a joke at best. Sorry.
A joke? I lol'd. No, Nai, this is not a joke. You telling me that Mace Windu -- despite being the "superior swordsman and combatant" -- ran away from Darth Sidious because he just cut down three of his friends is a joke. Unfortunately, going by the movie, Darth Sidious initiates the fight in such a way that Mace Windu nor his companions can match his overwhelming speed and ferocity. The Sith Lord cut down Tinn and Kolar in two seconds, Nai, and killed Fisto while dueling with Windu simultaneously.
To state otherwise is futile.
It's nice what you can see in that movie, Escape.
I like to think so, yes.
Where did Mace intervene, eh ?
The part where he attacked Darth Sidious in tandem with Kit Fisto, Nai.
Two Jedi are dead on the ground before Mace even moves into the duel and Kit Fisto is cut down by the Sith Lord so far away from Mace that Mace couldn't have done anything there.
I'm sorry, but no, this isn't the case. Above, you implied that Mace let Sidious reevaluate his stance and continue the duel. I personally think that that is a falsehood -- and would be incredibly, incredibly stupid on Windu's part -- and is merely a subsequent of bad choreography. Likewise, logic concludes that those four highly trained swordsman should have been able to attack a Sith Lord who they outnumbered, and who hadn't touched a lightsaber in over a decade. Yet two of them are already dead before Mace and Kit can summon the thought to fight back. Again, I blame that on piss poor choreography.
The other falsehood here is that you implied Mace 'couldn't have done anything'. Again, he attacked Sidious in tandem with Fisto, and was unable to save his colleague from being killed -- much less overpower Sidious. Why is that? Because, for the final time, at the beginning, Sidious held the advantage. He was faster and more ferocious. That is why and how he was able to drive Windu back into the main office.
So WTF ? What should Mace have done there to prevent Sidious from doing that ? He couldn't do anything against that.
If he were allegedly "head and shoulders" above Sidious, then one concludes that he could have easily defeated the Dark Lord, especially when he had help in the form of Kit Fisto. And yet he was unable to, and driven back for his efforts.
And sorry. Windu keeps kicking Sidious ass from the saberlock sequence on and basically let's the Sith Lord live twice when he could have ended the duel rather easily.
No need to apologize, Nai, it's I who must deliver the bad news. Mace Windu isn't a fool. To assume that he allowed Sidious to continue to fight -- when the objective was to disarm him and bring him into custody -- especially after he murdered three of Windu's colleagues and forced Windu himself back during the initial portion of the fight -- would require proof, not your "analysis" of the choreography. And to even consider that concludes that Mace Windu can now be used to gauge the bottomless depths of unquestionable ineptitude. Pardon me for thinking that Mace Windu has vast more intelligence than to allow a powerful enemy to continue walking for... wait, you didn't even bother providing the pretense of a reason why Windu would allow Sidious to continue to fight.
In the novel interpretation Mace is starting to use his Shatterpoint ability (and the complete Vaapad mind set) after shattering the window. That would mean he was already about to defeat Sidious without using Vaapad to the full extend and without using the Shatterpoint abilty.
That's certainly possible. Once again, no one is disputing that Mace Windu ended the duel with superior skill. We agree on it. The argument Darth Sexy was making was that Windu's not head and shoulders above him. You've yet to prove that.
And if you concluded that Mace is the better fighter. WTF: I said Sidious is not Mace's equal in lightsaber combat which would be the very same conclusion.
Lol, Nai, I officially have no real patience for the condescending nature of your post if this is what you've concluded. You made the assertion that Mace is "head and shoulders" above Sidious, which is what DS was disagreeing with. No one has disputed Mace's superiority, but it's not full pwnage. You've yet to prove that it is.
So thanks for wasting your time anyway.
A waste of time in that you still have yet to understand the point I'm trying to make. Take your time, Nai. A highly intelligent debater such as yourself ought to have no trouble understanding the simplicity of the point being made here.
Of course he would.
Then you and I define "ownage" differently. I define "ownage" as complete domination with no chance for the opposition. That seems to change though, for you, depending on who is facing whom. Mace wouldn't and didn't "own" Sidious. Or, if you like, he did, but -- wait -- Dooku initially held the advantage against Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, yet lost it and was defeated by a physical attack... hmm... similar circumstances.
I guess Dooku got owned too. Single-standards must suck.
Based on the movie interpretation Sidious is quite worse in melee combat in comparison to Mace if you follow the movement patterns. And there is nothing as a "pure lightsaber match" in the SW universe.
Based on movie interpretation? Lol, enlighten me, Nai.
Excluding force powers Mace would kick Sidious ass across the place because his physical strength and normal speed do by far exceed that of Sidious.
Nai... was this really necessary? A "pure lightsaber fight" within the context of a versus forum, I would define as a duel without active, offensive, or even defensive uses of the Force. Using it to enhance dexterity and mobility? Yeah, sure, why not?
Hell. Excluding Force powers, Mace would be the king of the PT. Yoda and Dooku would be owned by... well... any middle-aged or young person in decent shape, as would Sidious.
Nope, Escape. Lightsaber combat and force abilities can't be seperated because lightsaber combat depends on force abilities (such as force enchancement of certain natural abilities). Without that, lightsaber combat is hardly possible. So the very attempt to seperate them violates the very basic mechanics of the SW universe. Hence it's illogical to do so.
...I'm not arguing that, Nai. Go back, take your time, and re-read my post again. Oh, and I don't know if this helps you with DS, but in the versus forum, when we say "lightsaber duel", we don't mean strip the Force from the opponents entirely. When Dooku told Yoda that their fight couldn't be decided by "knowledge of the Force but skills with a lightsaber", he didn't stop using the Force entirely. He just fought -- primarily -- with the blade itself, using the Force to only enhance his strength and mobility to compensate for his old age, as did Yoda. That is what a typical versus fight with "lightsabers" constitutes.
And he's not trying to be objective which should actually have occured to you unless you're blind nowadays.
People here have accused me of being blind all the time. It's nothing new. No one, again, said he was being objective about the whole damn thing. Just the part I was debating.
Originally posted by Gideon
If he were allegedly "head and shoulders" above Sidious, then one concludes that he could have easily defeated the Dark Lord, especially when he had help in the form of Kit Fisto. And yet he was unable to, and driven back for his efforts.
You do know that some people can actually be more effective when fighting alone rather than with a teammate, dont you? Especially if the weapons there fighting with are freaking Lightsabers that, with just a little bit of contact, can seriously injure or kill someone. Enemy or not. This would explain why Windu couldnt do much with Kit Fisto against Sidious, but clearly performed better when he was alone. This kinds of things arent linear, y'know.
In conjunction to that, I think there's one very important thing that you guys completely missed out. And that is the fact that all of them where fighting in a limited space at that time(i.e at the entrance of the room). In reality Sidious had the advantage 300 style. Mace and Fisto(and the other two Masters) had limited movement when they fought, while Sidious mightve as well just practically swing his Lightsaber wildly in any direction and someone's bound to have been sliced in two.
You do know that some people can actually be more effective when fighting alone rather than with a teammate, dont you?
The suggestion or implication that Mace Windu is one of those people is, firstly, a very unstable and unsupported gambit and secondly, it would require some evidence.
The fact remains that a G-canon source (the novelization) supports the theory that Mace Windu was simply unable to defeat the Emperor at that point because he could not match the skill and ferocity demonstrated by the Sith Lord; Windu is, under normal circumstances, an extremely aggressive fighter who utilizes the most aggressive and unpredictable of all combat forms -- and yet he is forced back by his opponent, despite at first holding the numerical advantage.
Especially if the weapons there fighting with are freaking Lightsabers that, with just a little bit of contact, can seriously injure or kill someone.
...That point might have some merit if the two combatants in question weren't highly trained and highly skilled swordsman -- ranking among the best in the Order's history -- who have been colleagues for quite some time. This fight wasn't waged between children, Blasmaster.
Enemy or not. This would explain why Windu couldnt do much with Kit Fisto against Sidious, but clearly performed better when he was alone. This kinds of things arent linear, y'know.
Incorrect; the explanation has no merit to it nor does it have support. Meanwhile, the alternative route -- supported by a G-canon source -- suggests that Windu was unable to defeat Sidious at first because he simply couldn't match the Sith Lord's speed and ability.
In conjunction to that, I think there's one very important thing that you guys completely missed out. And that is the fact that all of them where fighting in a limited space at that time(i.e at the entrance of the room). In reality Sidious had the advantage 300 style. Mace and Fisto(and the other two Masters) had limited movement when they fought, while Sidious mightve as well just practically swing his Lightsaber wildly in any direction and someone's bound to have been sliced in two.
They weren't fighting in a broom closet, Blasmaster. The office -- while smaller than the main one and certainly smaller than the Senate arena -- was large enough for the four Jedi to have willingly entered, knowing full well the premise that the Chancellor might very well be an armed Sith Lord. If they felt that space would have been an issue, they might have retreated back into the hallway. Again, this also notes the simple fact that the four Jedi Masters present were among the most proficient swordsmen in the Jedi Order's 25,000-year-history -- while mistakes are and can be made by highly skilled warriors -- can you name several examples of a Jedi Master accidentally slicing his colleague in half in the midst of a duel? I can't recall any off the top of my head.
Originally posted by Gideon
He's right that Mace Windu is not "head and shoulders" above Darth Sidious in lightsaber combat.
Did you ever have a look at the topic of this thread here, Gideon ? Does it say "Mace Windu vs Darth Sidious - Part 2932 ?" No ? Then why you are turning this thread into that discussion once more ?
What happens after that? Mace begins to duel the Sith Lord on equal terms, and -- delving into Vaapad -- starts to overpower him. No one has disputed this, Nai.
So they weren't on equal terms before that ? Nice.
I'm aware, Nai. No one disputes that Mace is stronger than Sidious; hell, isn't it your entire claim that Anakin overcame Dooku with a cheap physical attack? I don't work with double standards, Nai, so don't color me impressed.
ROFL, Escape. What a nice irrelevant missdirection.
I do hope that you're not insinuating Mace Windu allowed Darth Sidious to reevaluate his stance, thereby risking his own life and potentially allowing this mass-murderer and puppetmaster to add another kill to the list.
That's exactly what he did and the reason for this is that he thought he had to capture Sidious alive instead of killing him on the spot. He just stands there for more than a second and waits until Sidious has moved his blade back up again. So unless you want to tell me that Mace needs some seconds to place a single strike on Sidious I guess he did really allow the Sith to defend himself again.
'Using fancy Ataru-style movements' to avoid being attacked doesn't seem any worse than running away from your opponent.
Once more: ROFL, Escape. You sound as if Mace shit his pants and ran away from Sidious in fear. Really. He just moved into a room in which he had more space and no ground literred with bodies of dead Jedi. And wow...he immediately takes the initiative once they are there.
A joke? I lol'd. No, Nai, this is not a joke. You telling me that Mace Windu -- despite being the "superior swordsman and combatant" -- ran away from Darth Sidious because he just cut down three of his friends is a joke. Unfortunately, going by the movie, Darth Sidious initiates the fight in such a way that Mace Windu nor his companions can match his overwhelming speed and ferocity. The Sith Lord cut down Tinn and Kolar in two seconds, Nai, and killed Fisto while dueling with Windu simultaneously.To state otherwise is futile.
Funny interpretation, Escape.
He cuts the first two Jedi down which don't even move to defend theirselves. You might attribute that to Sidious speed or to the fact that those two pretty much sucked. I don't care. The point is that they weren't defending themselves so that doesn't make Sidious an uber duellist exactly.
Kit Fisto is cut down by Sidious while defending himself, yes. But I wonder what Windu has to do with that. Mace isn't even in melee range with Sidious. So to state that Sidious cut down Kit Fisto "while duelling Mace" is simply wrong.
I'm sorry, but no, this isn't the case. Above, you implied that Mace let Sidious reevaluate his stance and continue the duel. I personally think that that is a falsehood -- and would be incredibly, incredibly stupid on Windu's part -- and is merely a subsequent of bad choreography.
You're talking about the same Mace Windu who casually switches his weaponhand while duelling the Sith Lord ? The same Mace Windu who didn't want to kill Sidious in the first place because he came to capture him and even stays with that idea after Sidious has killed the three Jedi ? Hmm.
Likewise, logic concludes that those four highly trained swordsman should have been able to attack a Sith Lord who they outnumbered, and who hadn't touched a lightsaber in over a decade. Yet two of them are already dead before Mace and Kit can summon the thought to fight back. Again, I blame that on piss poor choreography.
Excuse me Escape. You blame that on poor choreography and at the same time use it as argument for Sidious superiority in combat ? Am I the only one that thinks this doesn't make much sense ?
The other falsehood here is that you implied Mace 'couldn't have done anything'. Again, he attacked Sidious in tandem with Fisto, and was unable to save his colleague from being killed -- much less overpower Sidious. Why is that? Because, for the final time, at the beginning, Sidious held the advantage. He was faster and more ferocious. That is why and how he was able to drive Windu back into the main office.
Hello, Escape. He's exchanging two blows with Sidious and then Sidious cuts Fisto down why Mace is not even in melee range. So what should he have done against that. And he drives Mace back to the office ? This is coming from the guy who told me that Windu was running away implying that it was Windu's choice to move through the corridor into the office ? WTF ?
That's certainly possible. Once again, no one is disputing that Mace Windu ended the duel with superior skill. We agree on it. The argument Darth Sexy was making was that Windu's not head and shoulders above him. You've yet to prove that.
No. I don't need to proof anything because this duel isn't the topic of that thread here no does it have any impact on this thread here. I'd like to see your justification for turning this into another Mace VS Sidious debate.
Lol, Nai, I officially have no real patience for the condescending nature of your post if this is what you've concluded. You made the assertion that Mace is "head and shoulders" above Sidious, which is what DS was disagreeing with. No one has disputed Mace's superiority, but it's not full pwnage. You've yet to prove that it is.
Wow.
I officially have no real patience for the annoying nature of yours to pop up in every damn debate in which the duel between Mace and Sidious is cited, to turn it into the next "Mace VS Sidious" thread.
But ok. Just for you: I was talking about sheer bladework and lightsaber skill a department in which Mace does by far exceed Sidious. Which is only logical. You mentioned it yourself: Sidious didn't touch a lightsaber for a decade while Mace Windu was quite busy fighting a war over the three years prior to that duel. How should Sidious bladework be on par with that of Mace Windu or even close to the only master of the deadliest lightsaber form there is ?
The point is, and you've stated it yourself, that Sidious initial advantage comes from his superior speed and feriousity. That means from the fact that Sidious possesses greater force mastery in comparison to Mace Windu. The novel goes so far that Mace does force Sidious to decrease his speed (through Vaapad / Shatterpoint usage) and only after this disarms the Sith Lord.
So Sidious had a considerable speed advantage on Mace for most of the duel (according to the novel) which does mean that Mace...must obviously be far more skilled in the combat department to last against Sidious and even fight him back.
A waste of time in that you still have yet to understand the point I'm trying to make. Take your time, Nai. A highly intelligent debater such as yourself ought to have no trouble understanding the simplicity of the point being made here.
A highly intelligent debater such as yourself ought to have no trouble understanding the simplicity of the fact that the point your trying to make he has no use in this debate.
Then you and I define "ownage" differently. I define "ownage" as complete domination with no chance for the opposition. That seems to change though, for you, depending on who is facing whom. Mace wouldn't and didn't "own" Sidious. Or, if you like, he did, but -- wait -- Dooku initially held the advantage against Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, yet lost it and was defeated by a physical attack... hmm... similar circumstances.
Escape. I'm getting really bored by people who don't seem to have martial arts or saberfighting knowledge and come up with shitty comparisons based on that fact. Did Mace overpower Sidious with superior strength only by grapping him, thereby immobilizing him and then cut his hands off like Anakin did to Dooku, this all aided by the fact that he had a artifical hand ? No ?
Did Mace use some refined martial arts movement to disarm Sidious, such as kicking the freaking blade out of the Sith Lord's hand. Oh yes. That seems to be the case.
Does Anakin show any superiority over Dooku in the lightsaber combat or force mastery department ? I can actually remember that Anakin was down on the ground after trying to attack Dooku from behind while Dooku knocked out his former master fighting them 2 on 1. Holy shit. Did something similar happen to Windu ? No.
Can it be that you're just comparing apples to oranges here ? Holy crap. Yes. Does that make any sense ? No. Does it have any influence on the actual debate which says "Exar Kun VS Anakin" ? No.
Nai... was this really necessary? A "pure lightsaber fight" within the context of a versus forum, I would define as a duel without active, offensive, or even defensive uses of the Force. Using it to enhance dexterity and mobility? Yeah, sure, why not?
Oh. You would define it like that. Good god. So...does Vaapad, as a mindset, belong to the "offensive force power" department or is it merely part of the style ? Does Mace Windu's shatterpoint ability belong to the "offensive force power" department or is it merely an alternate force-aided way of perception (such as precognition) ? Is boosting your physical abilities counted as "offensive" or "defensive" force power depending on what you use this ability for ?
He just fought -- primarily -- with the blade itself, using the Force to only enhance his strength and mobility to compensate for his old age, as did Yoda. That is what a typical versus fight with "lightsabers" constitutes.
I don't know if it helps you Escape. But stating that person X is "head and shoulders" above person Y when it comes to force powers and then come up with "But in a lightsaber fight person Y would win" is completely mindless especially when you have nothing to argue that person Y has the greater lightsaber skill. Which was the entire point here actually.
And on a sidenote, Escape. The novelizations are NOT G-CANON but C-CANON. Time that some people get that into their heads.
Originally posted by Gideon
The suggestion or implication that Mace Windu is one of those people is, firstly, a very unstable and unsupported gambit and secondly, it would require some evidence.
In all fairness, Mace Windu's fighting style requires lots of room for full utilization as noted by the creators of the lightsaber forms and by Matthew Stover in Shatterpoint. And it's also intrinsically sensible that more room= more advantage with a lightsaber, especially since it's three against one. He brings up a good point which I had brought up initially over a year ago, and that's that the more people you add to the melee, the harder it becomes for them to mesh.
The fact remains that a G-canon source (the novelization) supports the theory that Mace Windu was simply unable to defeat the Emperor at that point because he could not match the skill and ferocity demonstrated by the Sith Lord; Windu is, under normal circumstances, an extremely aggressive fighter who utilizes the most aggressive and unpredictable of all combat forms -- and yet he is forced back by his opponent, despite at first holding the numerical advantage.
This might be acceptible if the "G-canon source" wasn't contradicting the movie, which is according to Leland Chee, the only bonafide in SW universe canon-wise. So while a novelization is considered "truer" to the real story of Star Wars according to Chee than an EU novel or comic book, it's subject to interpretation on behalf of the author (irregardless of how much GL supervises, because it's impossible to differentiate between what is GL's and what is Stover's) and in cases like this it's just plain wrong compared to the movie.
For sure, you wouldn't base a Harry Potter argument or LotR using movie sources when the novels are canon; why would you use a novel source for a series where only movies are the true canon? You wouldn't, plain and simple. The idea that Mace Windu was not able to match Sidious' skill and ferocity becomes moot, especially since Stover later makes an issue of how alone Mace and Sidious were apparently on equal standing until Mace got the upper hand.
...That point might have some merit if the two combatants in question weren't highly trained and highly skilled swordsman -- ranking among the best in the Order's history -- who have been colleagues for quite some time. This fight wasn't waged between children, Blasmaster.
Quite frankly I've seen this claim that the Jedi accompanying Windu were godly and the best the Order had to offer at the time (And now you say in history, which is even more questionable). It doesn't seem to hold any water, especially when two of the Jedi were slain by a straightforward attack by someone they lit their sabers to attack over a minute or two previous! If this is the best the Jedi had to offer, Order 66 could have been accomplished by the Red R4 unit from ANH. The only one who lasted more than five seconds was Kit Fisto, who himself uses an open and kinetic style. You can tell from the footage that the cramped space and the closeness of the Jedi and Sidious made his defense weak and he died for it.
Incorrect; the explanation has no merit to it nor does it have support. Meanwhile, the alternative route -- supported by a G-canon source -- suggests that Windu was unable to defeat Sidious at first because he simply couldn't match the Sith Lord's speed and ability.
See above. This explanation is flimsy and defies apparent movie depictions. Anyone can see that a bunch of men swinging around lightsabers in that room was insane. You couldn't swing a dead cat in there.
They weren't fighting in a broom closet, Blasmaster. The office -- while smaller than the main one and certainly smaller than the Senate arena -- was large enough for the four Jedi to have willingly entered, knowing full well the premise that the Chancellor might very well be an armed Sith Lord. If they felt that space would have been an issue, they might have retreated back into the hallway.
What the Jedi expected to find, or how they expected to conclude the arrest is speculation, but I submit that they did not space themselves out for attack as would be expected when seasoned warriors are about to attack a bigger target. Anyone who's seen a real fight knows that larger numbers spread out so that they can attack from all angles. It's a pincer. The Jedi merely ignite their sabers and stand there saying he's under arrest. Even when he produces a lightsaber they don't respond (Which is pretty stupid) and they don't take him seriously enough as a Sith Lord to even make a move or mount a real defense when he growls like a mating rancor and flies a la Raiden across the room.
So really, if the Jedi had come into that room expecting to throw down saber-style, there wouldn't have been such blatant idiocy on their behalf and lack of reaction. It just baffles the mind. Yes, Stover tries to sugarcoat the stupidity with his own explanation, but therein lies the problem- it's his explanation. Chee says first you must turn to the movies, and in the movies we can clearly see those you claim as the Order's best in their shining history act like total noobs when a Sith Lord threatens them and then attacks with a spinning Psycho Crusher followed by an elaborate, telegraphed thrust!
Again, this also notes the simple fact that the four Jedi Masters present were among the most proficient swordsmen in the Jedi Order's 25,000-year-history -- while mistakes are and can be made by highly skilled warriors -- can you name several examples of a Jedi Master accidentally slicing his colleague in half in the midst of a duel? I can't recall any off the top of my head.
1. Really, please... please... please tell me again where this quote is from? And why should we respect it? If these guys are so damn uber, how come Dooku doesn't mention them as rivals to Grievous? Why doesn't Anakin or Obi-Wan study under them? Why is Cin Drallig teaching saber skills and not Sesse? The quote is out of place and doesn't make any sense whatsoever, especially when the "Order's best in their 25,000 history" get ganked by a Sith lord with as much subtlety in combat as an orange elephant?
Originally posted by Gideon
The suggestion or implication that Mace Windu is one of those people is, firstly, a very unstable and unsupported gambit and secondly, it would require some evidence.
The fact that Mace, when fighting with Kit, couldnt do the things that he did when fighting Sidious alone, is a good enough indication that he may be more effective alone than with a teammate especially when fighting in a small space.
Otherwise Mace would've been dead the minute him and Sidious were face to face. I mean if Mace, with the help of another Jedi Master, couldnt defeat Sidious, then he wouldnt really stand a chance against Sidious if he's alone now, would he?
Originally posted by Gideon
The fact remains that a G-canon source (the novelization) supports the theory that Mace Windu was simply unable to defeat the Emperor at that point because he could not match the skill and ferocity demonstrated by the Sith Lord; Windu is, under normal circumstances, an extremely aggressive fighter who utilizes the most aggressive and unpredictable of all combat forms -- and yet he is forced back by his opponent, despite at first holding the numerical advantage.
I never denied the fact that Windu couldnt defeat Sidious when he was being helped by 3 other Jedi Masters. He clearly couldnt. BUT why he couldnt beat the Dark Lord even with help, but he could beat him alone is what Im trying to point out. Im arguing the why of that particular part of the fight. And as I see it, there were a number of circumstances at work in that fight, rather than Sidious being simply that good.
Originally posted by Gideon
...That point might have some merit if the two combatants in question weren't highly trained and highly skilled swordsman -- ranking among the best in the Order's history -- who have been colleagues for quite some time. This fight wasn't waged between children, Blasmaster.
And this point might have some merit if the 2 combatants in question are fighting an opponent whose strength isn't really special. The 2 Masters weren't fighting a Sith noob here, Gideon. Theyre fighting one of the most powerful, if not the most powerful Sith, in history. So, its more than reasonable to assume that they, at the very least, would have a bit of difficulty in fighting an extremely powerful Sith Lord, while at the same time trying to fight to the best of their abilities in a limited space and trying not to slice each other up because of the small space. Thats why you'll see in the video that Mace went around the back of Sidious to have more space, but by that time it was too late as Sidious had already sliced Kit Fisto.
Originally posted by Gideon
Incorrect; the explanation has no merit to it nor does it have support. Meanwhile, the alternative route -- supported by a G-canon source -- suggests that Windu was unable to defeat Sidious at first because he simply couldn't match the Sith Lord's speed and ability.
Look above. As I said, I never contested the fact that Windu could not beat Sidious at that particular time of the fight.
Originally posted by Gideon
They weren't fighting in a broom closet, Blasmaster. The office -- while smaller than the main one and certainly smaller than the Senate arena -- was large enough for the four Jedi to have willingly entered, knowing full well the premise that the Chancellor might very well be an armed Sith Lord. If they felt that space would have been an issue, they might have retreated back into the hallway.
It was still small enough for four Jedi to move around freely. Take notice they werent even fighting throughout the entire room. Sidious, through his speed, had them effectively pinned at the entrance of the room, which doesnt have much room for 4 Jedi(who were in very close proximity to each other) to move freely.
And retreating back into the hallway is a Big No No Gideon. You do realize that the hallway has an even smaller space, right? It would be like a bottleneck if they do that which would allow Sidious to dispose of them even more easily.
Originally posted by Gideon
Again, this also notes the simple fact that the four Jedi Masters present were among the most proficient swordsmen in the Jedi Order's 25,000-year-history -- while mistakes are and can be made by highly skilled warriors -- can you name several examples of a Jedi Master accidentally slicing his colleague in half in the midst of a duel? I can't recall any off the top of my head.
No, I admit that I cannot name a Jedi Master or any Jedi for that matter who accidentally sliced off his companions while in a duel. But then again, I dont recall any event where 2 or more Jedi fought against an opponent(a very powerful opponent) in a very small space and still fought to the best of their abilities keeping in mind that they might slice each other up. If you can prove me wrong though, feel free to direct me to a source.
This might be acceptible if the "G-canon source" wasn't contradicting the movie, which is according to Leland Chee, the only bonafide in SW universe canon-wise. So while a novelization is considered "truer" to the real story of Star Wars according to Chee than an EU novel or comic book, it's subject to interpretation on behalf of the author (irregardless of how much GL supervises, because it's impossible to differentiate between what is GL's and what is Stover's) and in cases like this it's just plain wrong compared to the movie.
For sure, you wouldn't base a Harry Potter argument or LotR using movie sources when the novels are canon; why would you use a novel source for a series where only movies are the true canon? You wouldn't, plain and simple. The idea that Mace Windu was not able to match Sidious' skill and ferocity becomes moot, especially since Stover later makes an issue of how alone Mace and Sidious were apparently on equal standing until Mace got the upper hand.
Quite frankly I've seen this claim that the Jedi accompanying Windu were godly and the best the Order had to offer at the time (And now you say in history, which is even more questionable). It doesn't seem to hold any water, especially when two of the Jedi were slain by a straightforward attack by someone they lit their sabers to attack over a minute or two previous!
If this is the best the Jedi had to offer, Order 66 could have been accomplished by the Red R4 unit from ANH. The only one who lasted more than five seconds was Kit Fisto, who himself uses an open and kinetic style. You can tell from the footage that the cramped space and the closeness of the Jedi and Sidious made his defense weak and he died for it.
What the Jedi expected to find, or how they expected to conclude the arrest is speculation, but I submit that they did not space themselves out for attack as would be expected when seasoned warriors are about to attack a bigger target. Anyone who's seen a real fight knows that larger numbers spread out so that they can attack from all angles. It's a pincer. The Jedi merely ignite their sabers and stand there saying he's under arrest. Even when he produces a lightsaber they don't respond (Which is pretty stupid) and they don't take him seriously enough as a Sith Lord to even make a move or mount a real defense when he growls like a mating rancor and flies a la Raiden across the room.
So really, if the Jedi had come into that room expecting to throw down saber-style, there wouldn't have been such blatant idiocy on their behalf and lack of reaction. It just baffles the mind. Yes, Stover tries to sugarcoat the stupidity with his own explanation, but therein lies the problem- it's his explanation. Chee says first you must turn to the movies, and in the movies we can clearly see those you claim as the Order's best in their shining history act like total noobs when a Sith Lord threatens them and then attacks with a spinning Psycho Crusher followed by an elaborate, telegraphed thrust!
1. Really, please... please... please tell me again where this quote is from?
And why should we respect it? If these guys are so damn uber, how come Dooku doesn't mention them as rivals to Grievous? Why doesn't Anakin or Obi-Wan study under them? Why is Cin Drallig teaching saber skills and not Sesse?
The quote is out of place and doesn't make any sense whatsoever, especially when the "Order's best in their 25,000 history" get ganked by a Sith lord with as much subtlety in combat as an orange elephant? [/B]
Originally posted by Lightsnake
However, unless it contradicts something from the movie absolutely and directly? There's nothing to argue.
"When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences. The novelizations are written concurrently with the film's production, so variations in detail do creep in from time to time. Nonetheless, they should be regarded as very accurate depictions of the fictional Star Wars movies.
This is Chris Cerasi's initial statement. He notes that the movies > all in terms of canon since GL has direct control over how they are put together and presented whereas anything else is subject to interpretation, just as I said. He then goes on to say that novelizations have "variation in detail" but should be considered "very accurate depictions" of the movies.
This means two things:
1. The movie versions of events are gospel; nothing else. Even novelizations are subject to author interpretation, variation in detail, and while are considered "accurate" anyone with half a brain can tell they're not. We cannot simply sift through the novelizations and pick and choose things to aid our arguments if the entire book depicts the movie in a skewed, flawed, or otherwise different nature and is not a work of GL himself. If we were to simply take things out of the novelizations and claim them as fact, Qui-Gon Jinn would be as good as Mace Windu and Luke Skywalker could temporarily deflect Sith Lightning with his hands. Both of those are absolutely ridiculous claims made by novelizations.
2. In any case where the novelization describes something or gives meaning to something and the movie covers the same event, the movie version is the true version. This is especially the case with RotS; for starters, Vaapad was never envisioned for the movie nor used. Stover applies it to the fight and makes his own theories on the fighting form, but it was never ever applied by Nick Gillard or George Lucas. Secondly, the creators of the lightsaber forms themselves were simply consultants for the movie and did not actually effect the presentations. So this basically means that when the movie shows two combatants engaged- one fairly casual who eventually wins and the other giving it his all and he ends up on the floor- it stands to reason that this is really what happened. Stover's views on the fight that he wrote about before it was filmed are moot.
"The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation. Not all artists draw Luke Skywalker the same way. Not all writers define the character in the same fashion. The particular attributes of individual media also come into play. A comic book interpretation of an event will likely have less dialogue or different pacing than a novel version. A video game has to take an interactive approach that favors gameplay. So too must card and roleplaying games ascribe certain characteristics to characters and events in order to make them playable.
This passage basically covers more EU than anything, but the point remains: anything outside of the movies themselves (Unless they come from GL directly) are considered to be flawed material. Although Lucasfilm lazily lumps novelizations and radio presentations in with movies, the movies are really in their own class of canon. For the purpose of objective debate, we should acknowledge that and respect that.
"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them. Like the great Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi said, 'many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view.'"
And this is more of the same. Obviously, a novelization or EU book or comic or video game is all subject to interpretation. When one contradicts the other, the higher form of canon comes out on top. And when it comes to movie versus anything, movie always wins. Ergo, the movie depiction of the fight is the accurate one; Stover's is flawed.
The choreography sucked, everyone knows this. Don't use it to diminish people because of horrible CGI and stunt coordination.
The quality of the choreography is absolutely moot when the highest form of canon depicts them being terrible or especially air-headed fighters. If you think I should instead take the novelization (Read: flawed) version of the fight and a few lines from a Visual Dictionary over a movie depiction (Read: highest form of canon), you had best reconsider. We do not get the luxury of looking at say, Obi-Wan versus Darth Vader in ANH and going "Gee, that fight choreography sucked; ergo, both of them are sabergods because I've speculated on it and some abstract quote from a lesser piece of canon says so."
To be exact, the quote comes from the ROTS novelization-several characters + narration and the Ultimate Visual guides.
G-canon is "George Lucas" canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely.
Reference books, such as the Visual Dictionary, only possess G-canon if the actual information within comes directly from GL's mouth. Anything else submitted is C-canon and subject to interpretation, flaws, or just plain hyperbole.
We know. Lucas is terrible at writing
Actually, his writing has nothing to do with it. He depicted the Jedi clearly not being prepared for their opponent's simple attack and certainly not making a martially smart decision when they approached him. In effect, a canon representation of those Jedi show that they have no common sense. I fail to see how Jedi lacking the common sense enough to block a clearly telegraphed stab with over a minute's prep and several seconds' warning equals them being the "best in the history of the Jedi Order". That's like calling Han Solo the best mechanic in the history of smugglers because he can't get his hyperdrive to work.
And thenm after the movie, the approved explanation is given that circumvents Lucas's own foolishness, which isn't directly contradicted by the movie.
By this logic, Mace Windu absolutely sucks and a third year kendo student could kick his ass
Again, see the above points. No piece of lower canon by another author gets to circumvent anything GL shows us.
CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."
This is pretty straightforward; any time GL says something, it's final. Any time an author makes an interpretation on something, it's subject to speculation and little more. If GL shows Greedo shooting first (Which was a pretty shitty redo, I might add) but the novelization has Han Solo shooting first, the former version is correct.
Why is Cin Drallig teaching saber skills and not Mace? Personal preference? Saesee, Kit and Agen preferring the front lines and council positions?
And probably because they're not rivals to Grievous, who was capable of dealing with most council members
How is it then that these three were not rivals to Grievous, but they were among the best the Jedi Order had ever produced? How does this follow?
Again: the choreography sucks and it's time to look past that. Especially when said Sith Lord is also described as one of the best duelists in history himself and the inadequacy of Lucas's direction can be used to detract from a LOT of people in the movies.
So GL, the man who created everything the EU, reference books, NEC, etc. is based off of, is a flawed source? And obscure quotes from lower canon sources are more accurate? Are you sure that's your stance, LS?